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cedardell

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First of all you blame R-Calf for being isolationists. Canadian Agriculture is run by socialistic government that dictates quotas and subsidizes the cattle industry to the hilt. Your govt. doesn't care about the problems of US cattlemen, mainly inflation and loss of export markets. They glom onto our greedy, mafia owned, vertically integrated meat packers and start subsidizing them to the hilt. Is your govt. going to set quotas for them too or are they going to use them to suck billions more dollars out of the US which is already broke. I've got a right to bitch I just bought a John Deere mower. It cost a hell of a lot. Then I found out it was made in Canada and all I did was make a bunch of Canadians rich. If you think trade is so good for the US why don't you start buying about 60 billion more from the US so we can have fair trade? I'm damn glad to have R-calf sticking up for US cattlemen. I doubt if they can solve the big problems of dealing with socialists, but at least they are trying. Answer me this. How can a free market economy work when you have free trade with a socialst govt. controled economy? Now wonder Candian cattle, dairy cattle and hogs are so much cheaper than ours. So in effect what you want is for your govt. to contol the price of US cattle. Right?
 

Bill

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You are either really uninformed or extremely dizzy from chasing your tail. What quotas does the Canadian gov't have in the beef industry? There was no type of subsidy to Canadian beef producers until BSE and even they keep us below the cost of production so are trade friendly in the eyes of the US.

Miss Universe 2005 was Canadian. Another Canadian conspiracy to try and conquer the US I suppose. Trump puts on the show, American hosts and US network and now she will be all over the US selling Canadian beef. :shock: Makes about as much sense as what you have just written.

Figure out the trade numbers per capita (per person living in each country) and see where the trade imbalance is. You need to start buying alot more Canadian. Do you think there are any Americans who own stock in John Deere or did it all of a sudden become a Canadian company. Come to think of it isn't Deere French? :p
Bon Jour
 

Maple Leaf Angus

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cedardell said:
. . . bought a John Deere mower. It cost a hell of a lot. Then I found out it was made in Canada and all I did was make a bunch of Canadians rich.Right?

Okay, cedardell. I''ll confess now that I've been caught with my hand clearly stuck in your cookie jar.

Ahem . . . this is hard to do but here goes . . .

I, myself personally, probably made no less than $50,000 (U.S.) on that lawn mower you bought. And that would be before all the subsidies collected on it from our Socialist government.

There, now I feel better. Confession makes the heart much lighter!

Do any other Canadians on this board want to experience the genuine relief that comes from making honest confession of your self-indulgent ways?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

agman

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cedardell said:
First of all you blame R-Calf for being isolationists. Canadian Agriculture is run by socialistic government that dictates quotas and subsidizes the cattle industry to the hilt. Your govt. doesn't care about the problems of US cattlemen, mainly inflation and loss of export markets. They glom onto our greedy, mafia owned, vertically integrated meat packers and start subsidizing them to the hilt. Is your govt. going to set quotas for them too or are they going to use them to suck billions more dollars out of the US which is already broke. I've got a right to bitch I just bought a John Deere mower. It cost a hell of a lot. Then I found out it was made in Canada and all I did was make a bunch of Canadians rich. If you think trade is so good for the US why don't you start buying about 60 billion more from the US so we can have fair trade? I'm damn glad to have R-calf sticking up for US cattlemen. I doubt if they can solve the big problems of dealing with socialists, but at least they are trying. Answer me this. How can a free market economy work when you have free trade with a socialst govt. controled economy? Now wonder Candian cattle, dairy cattle and hogs are so much cheaper than ours. So in effect what you want is for your govt. to contol the price of US cattle. Right?

Your comments display your almost total ignorance per the subjects you discuss. Wow, where do you folks dream this stuiff up?
 

Broke Cowboy

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cedardell:

First of all you blame R-Calf for being isolationists. Canadian Agriculture is run by socialistic government that dictates quotas and subsidizes the cattle industry to the hilt.

I usually let some one else respond - but here goes. Your statement is considered correct by some - but most of the folks I know have received no where near the direct subsidies you might talk / rant about. I suspect some would actually like to go on quota - if only to survive - 'nother time for that story.

Certainly the U.S. government has a far larger support policy towards U.S. ag than the Canadians do. That in itself is unarguable. Simply go to the web sites and see the TOTALS spent on ag in both countries - the U.S. is far higher.

Your govt. doesn't care about the problems of US cattlemen, mainly inflation and loss of export markets.

Much like the U.S. government is concerned with the internal workings of the U.S. side of the border, the Canadian government is concerned with their side of the border. Your accusation rings falsely. If only because it appears you have closed your eyes and ears to the sound of reason.

They glom onto our greedy, mafia owned, vertically integrated meat packers and start subsidizing them to the hilt.

When a country needs slaughter capacity it is easier to add on to an existing facility with established markets than it is to start fresh. The Canadians needed help immediately and built additional capacity.

For what ever the reason - nuff on that topic - It was the U.S. that closed the border - not the Canadians.

Mafia owned - care to prove that statement?

I put it to you - WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE? If you have an answer that is not a rant I suspect many of us would like to hear it. Maybe - just maybe it is a good idea.

Is your govt. going to set quotas for them too or are they going to use them to suck billions more dollars out of the US which is already broke.

The U.S. government is not broke - it is in debt. There is a big difference. I might add the economy is not doing too badly - just look out side of your area of knowledge and examine the rest of the country other than the beef industry. Seems to me U.S. cattle prices are up substantially - you still not making money?

I've got a right to bitch

Yup, and I am one of those who did his duty so you can do just that.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Wish I could remember the originator of the quote - but it's one I live by.

I just bought a John Deere mower. It cost a hell of a lot.

American owned company. Care to disclose exactly what plant and what city it was made in? Or do you even know?

Then I found out it was made in Canada and all I did was make a bunch of Canadians rich.

Nope, you gave some poor working slob a chance to keep making his rent payment and feeding his kids.

You made a bunch of Americans richer.

If you think trade is so good for the US why don't you start buying about 60 billion more from the US so we can have fair trade?

Canada does not have the bucks to do that - trade is already substantial as you will soon see. The entire country has less population than the State of California.

Trade between the counties is over a billion dollars per day - maybe higher - and I believe Canada is still the number one trading partner of the U.S. The additional funds are just not there at present.

There are arguments on both sides as to whether or not the trade is fair. The U.S. has consistently placed barriers in front of the Canucks - lumber, wheat, corn, and so on. Canada imports corn in staggering amounts into Ontario - at prices less than Canadians can produce it. So, what is free trade?

How about an answer please? How about possibly telling us how you would run the program? How would you deal with the various special interest groups that finance the politicians who run both sides of the issue.

Can you answer these questions - I have attempted and cannot - but I do attempt to maintain an open mind - I certainly would like to hear some good ideas from both sides of the border. You can be sure folks like us could probably solve the issue faster than those in the puzzle palaces.

I'm damn glad to have R-calf sticking up for US cattlemen.

I am glad you are glad. While I am not a supporter, I have never slammed them. They are what they are. What that is - only you can decide.

I doubt if they can solve the big problems of dealing with socialists, but at least they are trying.

Are they? Personally I think not, but that is my opinion. Who launched the border closure actions?

Then again maybe "they" is another organization. Your accusations and comments are unclear.

Answer me this. How can a free market economy work when you have free trade with a socialst govt. controled economy?

Most Canadians I know are not socialist. But there are groups on both sides of the border that lean that way. Can you think of any?

Why have U.S. companies left for other lands? Profit. Plain and simple. That is why there are so many companies leaving for China, India, and so on. Socialism has nothing to do with it.

Now wonder Candian cattle, dairy cattle and hogs are so much cheaper than ours.

If no one will buy them - the price drops. Fairly simple concept. So people who want to make money buy them and then sell the finished product. I think you need to look a bit more inward rather than throwing accusations. I do not believe your accusations have much merit. You have not examined the entire picture.

Who buys them and re-sells them? Canadian companies? Or is it companies based in the U.S.?

So in effect what you want is for your govt. to contol the price of US cattle. Right?

Huh? I am unclear as to your statement. No foreign county can do this - at least to the best of my knowledge.

If the Canadians are controlling the price you should be doing handstands for joy - and thanking them profusely - the prices are up!

Are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?

Enough for now - I will re-enter lurk mode. Have a nice day, and watch the blood pressure.

B.C.
 

Shelly

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B.C., I'm so glad you calmly and rationally picked his uncontrollable rantings apart! As I read his post, my blood was starting to boil. His comment about the cattle industry being so heavily subsidized was just about too much for me. We've collected our little gov't handouts and it's a crying shame what our gov't considers as assistance to the cattle producers.
 

cedardell

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Maybe we should get some of the US dairy and wheat farmers involved in the discussion, because they have already had experience with how Canada effects our markets. First we had a buy out program to put all our old dairy farmers permantly out of business. Then you shipped all your surplus animals down here and sold them for half the US price and screwed up the program. In effect you took advantage of our program to rid your self of over production. Same thing happened with wheat. So must assume same thing will happen with beef cattle. Unless Canada controls production our markets will drop and there is not a damn thing we can do about it except bitch to WTO and we've seen how much good that does because WTO thinks prices are too high in US when actually prices reflect inflation caused by our huge trade imbalance and are necessary for survival. No I'm not an expert but if we learned anything from the past the current trading system will not work unless Canada's Agricultural Ministry Merges with USDA and we have one policy setting body. Also think we should have one currency. So why don't you just join the United States and we'll have one governing body?
 

cedardell

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I am very sorry for the hardship that was caused by the border closing. I wasn't writting to advocate closing the border or keeping it closed. What I am advocating is that you need to control your supply because in past you have had no regard for economic principals that govern US prices.
 

Broke Cowboy

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cedardell

in past you have had no regard for economic principals that govern US prices

In fact the same could be said for any country - the U.S. as well.

Perhaps you could explain how someone from one country who is doing their best to make THEIR situation better should be worrying about what happens in another country? Has not the U.S. been acused of the same thing?

Canadians have learned that relying on U.S. interestes to make their own (Canadian) situation better is probably not the best way to make a living. Canadians are in the process of changing that - should that be considered wrong?

So as you can see, it is a two way street. Unfortunately what happens is there are many who are ready to put the crosshairs on a target before they know if it is the right target. Parochial thinking perhaps?

Canadians did not ship their beef to the U.S. - the U.S. bought that beef and created an export market. Otherwise that beef would not come to the U.S. If they did not buy it from the Canadians then where would it come from? Mexico? Argentina? Brazil? It would have come from somewhere - on that you can be sure.

Heaven knows the U.S. cattle inventory is large - but it is only the fourth largest in the world after - India, Brazil and China. The EU is so close behind the U.S. as to be almost comparable.

Exports are another issue. The constant complaint is "we want our export markets back". Well, without imports it will not happpen. Prices are up. Cattle numbers are not there to supply foreign and domestic. I believe slaughter weights are down. All that tells me the export market is dead for some time. There is much that needs to be done to the U.S. cattle industry before it can re-create the export market.

http://www.canfax.ca/ Stats page indicates that the U.S. is now number 9 in the world export market behind even the European Union. Is that a bad thing?

Not necessarily. When the U.S. had a substantial portion of the world export market - what were the prices for home grown cattle?

What are they now?

But beware of pricing the animal so high it becomes unattractive to the consumer - most of whom could care less where it comes from - as long as it is affordable.

The U.S. export market cannot be supplied by the U.S. domestic product. There is simply not enough beef grown on the U.S. to supply the domestic market AND supply the foreign trade.

Canadian supply was under control untl the border closed - now there is little danger of seeing live cattle from Canada in the U.S. so what is your point?

According to the latest Canadian Cattleman mag that I get, the Canadians have increased their own beef imports by 35% over the same time period as compared to last year. To me that is a telling statement.

I think you need to stop blaming a country, a neighjbour and possibly some personal friends for something that was created by the U.S. businessman who was simply doing what his shareholders wanted - making a profit.

You started this by stating you wanted a free market economy to function. Well, this is a free market and you are simply seeing what it does.

If you want a true free market economy, you would want all U.S. subsidies and all Canadian subsidies and all border issues stopped.

Beware of what you THINK you want. You would see a crash in the North American ag world. This continent would see many ag folks shut down tomorrow as they were wiped out due to imports.

Think I am wrong?

Perhap I am - but you only think beef - very inward looking - hence your thoughts.

Dairy/grains/fruits/oils and all subsidiary industries would be in dire straits due to foreign competition. The vast majority are far cheaper producers.

The next time you take a shot at someone, think about who your real target is and then think about whether or not that target is the right target. Sometimes collateral damage is too high.

Time for you to hit the books - glad your blood pressure is under control.

I promise to stay off this thread now - I have been more vocal than usual.

Take care,

B.C.
 

Maple Leaf Angus

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Broke Cowboy said:
I promise to stay off this thread now - I have been more vocal than usual.

Take care,

B.C.

No need to stay away from this thread when you bring the quality of thinking that you have displayed, B.C.

All of what you presented is true, coherent and well presented.
 

mrj

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cedardell said:
I am very sorry for the hardship that was caused by the border closing. I wasn't writting to advocate closing the border or keeping it closed. What I am advocating is that

you need to control your supply because in past you have had no regard for economic principals that govern US prices.

{Do you mean like we in the USA have "controlled" our production of beef......cutting our numbers......AND growing them bigger resulting in more tonnage of beef from less numbers of cattle?????

MRJ
 

Bill

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cedardell said:
Maybe we should get some of the US dairy and wheat farmers involved in the discussion, because they have already had experience with how Canada effects our markets. First we had a buy out program to put all our old dairy farmers permantly out of business. Then you shipped all your surplus animals down here and sold them for half the US price and screwed up the program. In effect you took advantage of our program to rid your self of over production. Same thing happened with wheat. So must assume same thing will happen with beef cattle. Unless Canada controls production our markets will drop and there is not a damn thing we can do about it except bitch to WTO and we've seen how much good that does because WTO thinks prices are too high in US when actually prices reflect inflation caused by our huge trade imbalance and are necessary for survival. No I'm not an expert but if we learned anything from the past the current trading system will not work unless Canada's Agricultural Ministry Merges with USDA and we have one policy setting body. Also think we should have one currency. So why don't you just join the United States and we'll have one governing body?

"Same thing happened with wheat."

Please tell us what happened with wheat. The finger pointing American wheat grower has challenged Canadian wheat 13 times and have never proved dumping by Canada. If there was any merit in your comment they should have won at least half of them.
 

cedardell

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I am sorry for the abrupt language I used to provok response from the Canadians. I really want to thank " Broke Cowboy." for the time he spent trying to give me the facts about our trading relationship. You made some good points about how subsidies effect other areas besides cattle. I have always thought that subsidies hurt the small guy by giving large operaters a floor for their risk. If you take the risk out of any business there is no reason not to keep getting bigger and bigger, and buying up all the small guys. You are right I do envision a free market economy with open borders and no subsidies. But I never thought about the downside of that. The thing I don't understand is how the Canadian market works. It seems to me like your Agricultural Ministry just picks a price out of the air and then all you producers sell at that price through a cooperative marketing system. How can the price be effected by the supply and demand in a system like that? Another concept that is hard to grasp is how big the Agriculture Area of Canada is in relation to it's relativley small population. This means both Canada and the US have always had the potential for huge backbreaking surplusses. So I think it behoves both countries to look for other markets so we are not just dumping our surpluses on each other. In that respect it seems like the US because of our open global trading policy is sucking the hind tit. I guess I'm just feeling like the French and the Dutch about the "international economic elitits." Maybe Canada's socialistic system of govt. is better for Canada. It seems like the US system isn't really working too well now. It's actually a little embarasing to see our Democratic elitists trying to tell the world how they should live. I think what I was trying to say is that US and Canada need a better economic mesh when it comes to Agriculture. In the past there has been to much disparity in price between us and has from time to time hurt one or the other.
 

rkaiser

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Broke Cowboy - - I would have to say you have summed up this entire arguement with one paragraph, and thank you for that.

Do you mind if this statement is used over and over, and over again to simplify what is really going on despite repeated attempts by everyone on both sides of the border to make this a complex issue?

Broke cowboy's statement -

"Canadians did not ship their beef to the U.S. - the U.S. bought that beef and created an export market. Otherwise that beef would not come to the U.S. If they did not buy it from the Canadians then where would it come from? Mexico? Argentina? Brazil? It would have come from somewhere - on that you can be sure."
:)
 

Mike

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rkaiser said:
Broke Cowboy - - I would have to say you have summed up this entire arguement with one paragraph, and thank you for that.

Do you mind if this statement is used over and over, and over again to simplify what is really going on despite repeated attempts by everyone on both sides of the border to make this a complex issue?

Broke cowboy's statement -

"Canadians did not ship their beef to the U.S. - the U.S. bought that beef and created an export market. Otherwise that beef would not come to the U.S. If they did not buy it from the Canadians then where would it come from? Mexico? Argentina? Brazil? It would have come from somewhere - on that you can be sure."
:)

I would like to add.............................. It would have come from somewhere ONLY if the importer thought he could make a profit on it. In other words, it might need to be cheaper than U.S. beef. My 2 cents.
 

mrj

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Mike said:
rkaiser said:
Broke Cowboy - - I would have to say you have summed up this entire arguement with one paragraph, and thank you for that.

Do you mind if this statement is used over and over, and over again to simplify what is really going on despite repeated attempts by everyone on both sides of the border to make this a complex issue?

Broke cowboy's statement -

"Canadians did not ship their beef to the U.S. - the U.S. bought that beef and created an export market. Otherwise that beef would not come to the U.S. If they did not buy it from the Canadians then where would it come from? Mexico? Argentina? Brazil? It would have come from somewhere - on that you can be sure."
:)

I would like to add.............................. It would have come from somewhere ONLY if the importer thought he could make a profit on it. In other words, it might need to be cheaper than U.S. beef. My 2 cents.

{Mike, isn't that the case with lean trim beef imported from Aus. and NZ? Isn't that used to mix with our fat trim to make hamburger because it can be done at less cost, both to those making it and to consumers, than it would be by using USA produced chuck and round as the source for the leaner burger meat? Looks like a win-win situation with all involved from producer to retailer probably making a bit more money, plus consumers getting a leaner, more desireable product for less money than if all USA beef was used to make it.

MRJ}
 

Mike

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MRJ said:
Mike said:
rkaiser said:
Broke Cowboy - - I would have to say you have summed up this entire arguement with one paragraph, and thank you for that.

Do you mind if this statement is used over and over, and over again to simplify what is really going on despite repeated attempts by everyone on both sides of the border to make this a complex issue?

Broke cowboy's statement -

"Canadians did not ship their beef to the U.S. - the U.S. bought that beef and created an export market. Otherwise that beef would not come to the U.S. If they did not buy it from the Canadians then where would it come from? Mexico? Argentina? Brazil? It would have come from somewhere - on that you can be sure."
:)

I would like to add.............................. It would have come from somewhere ONLY if the importer thought he could make a profit on it. In other words, it might need to be cheaper than U.S. beef. My 2 cents.

{Mike, isn't that the case with lean trim beef imported from Aus. and NZ? Isn't that used to mix with our fat trim to make hamburger because it can be done at less cost, both to those making it and to consumers, than it would be by using USA produced chuck and round as the source for the leaner burger meat? Looks like a win-win situation with all involved from producer to retailer probably making a bit more money, plus consumers getting a leaner, more desireable product for less money than if all USA beef was used to make it.

MRJ}

I undertstand your point although I don't understand why lean beef HAS to be imported? With more grass fed operations going up we should be able to supply our own lean cuts. If the U.S. cattleman could get here what it cost to buy and ship beef all the way from Australia or NZ we might do better for our own producers. Shipping today is not cheap with the cost of fuel rising. Mexico and Canada are another story..........they are close.
Point: We can supply more cattle, and can probably do it on grass to produce that leaner beef at about the same price of shipping around the world.
 

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