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New suspect cow

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whiteface

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What I want to know is why do they even feel they need to resurface this cow after all this time and when, back then, it was "foolproof" that she was in fact "negative." How is it that they even still have the brain sample floating around...if it is even in fact her brain sample. Sure seems fishy to me that they just now decide to pursue it in some matter and like Oldtimer mentioned, USDA chose to concentrate the sample at 20 times what the regular test would call for.
I will feel very bad if any of you think I'm simply attacking anyone on here, but seriously, is any of this rhyming to any of you. Where the hell is Sandhusker right about now. He should have some cleaver explanations. Hope you all have a good day and good luck to your operations however USDA decides to mess with us. Thanks for reading from Canada.
 

PORKER

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I agree that the timing is very odd and as I said the Bill Hawks resignation is likely related.
This whole problem started when the USDA said it only tests for BSE animal safety and not the safety of the public meat supply.This is where the FSIS of USDA and the IG part waters.They don't care about public safety of the food that animals and people Consume.They just said they wanted to check what percent of the cattle population had BSE.Their even using a test that not even used by the rest of the world .The inspector general will have the last say along with a bunch of Senators.
 

Mike

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Tam said:
Mike said:
Here's the link to the USDA phone in discussion to reporters.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB?contentidonly=true&contentid=2005/06/0207.xml

Looks like we had an IHC tested cow that came back negative, then amplified the samples and tested with the "Prionic's Western Blot" and it came back positive. Obviously, the cow was in the first stages and had some prions that could not be detected using IHC the "Gold Standard" which is not quite as gold as they once believed.

Reader and I have been saying all along that if younger animals were tested using the Western Blot, we would be able to find those "sub-clinical" cases.

The consumer groups who have been threatening to blow the cover of the USDA were RIGHT it seems. This may turn out to be a big black eye for the USDA. Might be one reason Veneman is gone.

It's your turn TAM.

Why is it my turn I have guestioned the US BSE surveilance since the new system came in. I also thought if the US wanted to calm the suspicion around the multipal inconclusive test results of the Nov. Cow they should have sent the samples out of the country to have them confirmed. I was at a meeting in Feb and I was asked what I thought about the US testing and I told them then that the US will likely find a case of native BSE and I wouldn't be surprized at all if it was found by retesting the last BSE inconclusive turned negative cow.
Tell us Mike what is the US producers going to do now after R-CALF has said all meat from a country that has had BSE in their Native herd is tainted. Are you, Sandhusker and Leo going to stand up and tell the US consumer all about your firewalls and how you have had them in place for so many years and you put them in to protect the US Beef consumers and will they believe it now after all the media surrounding the USDA and the FDA.
I feel a bit sorry for the Governments too as I don't see this as all their fault. They set the rules and mind you they may have failed some in that BUT it is up to the industry to follow the rules but the government is getting blamed for the non-compliance of the industry. When is the industry going to take their fair share of the blame and clean themselves up. In the US, it seems to be eazier to blame Canada for BSE and blame the government for the rules and non compliance to them as it is to take responsibility for your industry. Feeding chicken litter may be cheaper but if it is putting your herd at risk why should it take a government law to get producers to stop it. If the law is to ban the use of ruminant proteins on ruminants then why should the government take the blame for the Beef industry not complying. do you put the law makers in prison when someone breaks any other law? no, you make the law breaker pay. If the consumer really wants to know where the beef comes from shouldn't the beef industry make sure that the packers have a way of guaranteeing that label if they put it on? No trace back is the US industrys fault too, faulty testing is also in part the industrys fault as they are not turning over the dead and dieing, and the feed bans is in great part the fault of the industry because they are the ones not complying to laws already on the books. Some in Canada also want to blame the government but it's not all the governments fault the lawsuit here is because the lawyers say the government should have known and made the laws sooner well the ranchers should also have known and they still needed laws to stop the feeding of that stuff. I will be watching the US producers to see if they will be sueing the USDA for the noncompliance, and the fact that they agreed that Chicken litter was a sourse of cross contamination and did nothing to stop the feeding of it. Canada's lawsuit is for 7 billion what will the US lawsuit be for?

Tam, I have been cussing the USDA since day one on testing methods, etc - same as you. I just left the floor open to you to speak your mind.
No insult meant. period.
Don't EVEN put me in the same category as Bullard. I have CONSISTENTLY said that I do not believe in some of R-Calfs rantings.
Sheesh, I give up.
 

PORKER

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THIS COULD BE HEADLINES MONDAY Mexico has halted imports of U.S. beef over fears of mad cow disease and will maintain the ban until Mexican inspectors can determine whether the meat is safe, the government said Wednesday.

Mexico decided to take the measure Tuesday, said Javier Trujillo, director of safety and inspection for the Agriculture Department, following the announcement that a possible case of the disease had been detected in TEXAS.

"This is a precautionary measure, in which Mexico is saying 'stop everything' and we'll study the situation," Trujillo said.

"We're even going to send inspectors to Washington state and once we know the exact dimensions, we will decide if we maintain it," Trujillo said.
 

Mike

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Oldtimer said:
According to the USDA news conference they concentrated the brain material at 20 times the normal concentration to get the weak positive test- Why :? Sounds like another hypothetical experiment being done with a science thats made up of hypothesis an theory....

Oldtimer this (concentrating the sample) is why the Western Blot is now the most accepted confirmatory test worldwide. It doesn't PRODUCE the prions, they have to be there to start with. It just finds them at low levels.
If they had had this test when BSE surfaced there would have been many more young (under 30 months) animals to test positive.
Just think, the very first BSE test was to inject brain matter into a mouse -then wait for him to die. Six months or so away.
 
A

Anonymous

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Mike said:
Oldtimer said:
According to the USDA news conference they concentrated the brain material at 20 times the normal concentration to get the weak positive test- Why :? Sounds like another hypothetical experiment being done with a science thats made up of hypothesis an theory....

Oldtimer this (concentrating the sample) is why the Western Blot is now the most accepted confirmatory test worldwide. It doesn't PRODUCE the prions, they have to be there to start with. It just finds them at low levels.
If they had had this test when BSE surfaced there would have been many more young (under 30 months) animals to test positive.
Just think, the very first BSE test was to inject brain matter into a mouse -then wait for him to die. Six months or so away.

So it sounds like before they didn't want to find a positive--but now they want to find a positive....If this is now confirmed positive- it looks like they better throw out all their tests and statistics and start over from square one- Re-evaluate everything from testing, to rendering process's and animal feeds, to imports ......Sure will make USDA's science and scientists look like idiots in court....Its a bad blow to an administrator when his people get caught screwing up by Internal Affairs....
 

don

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ot: So it sounds like before they didn't want to find a positive--but now they want to find a positive....If this is now confirmed positive- it looks like they better throw out all their tests and statistics and start over from square one

the game has been rigged from the beginning. now the situation is that it looks finanacially advantageous to some and politically expedient to find bse. the world has known the situation for a long time, that is why even though no native cases had been detected the borders stayed closed. it's significant that just about everybody on this board - american and canadian - is suspicious of the timing and method of this reevaluation.
 

Tam

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Maple Leaf Angus said:
Tam said:
Mike said:
It's your turn TAM.

Why is it my turn . . .


I wouldn't take that as an insult or attack, Tam. No one else was asked to give their opinion on this thread. Indeed, many offer a lot of opinion.

Take Mike's prompt as an indicator that your thoughts have gained some respect around here.

Thanks MLA I don't really care if it was an attack I have said all along that the USDA was testing but not to find BSE and I have also always objected to the animals being tested in the US and the fact they do not plan to keep up testing to the percentage that many in the US demand Canada do. This may be the only thing Reader and I do agree on. But I'm also tired of the pointing fingers at Canada and the government because they don't care to shoulder their share of the blame. it is not up to the FDA and the USDA to comply to the rules. It is up to them to write them and it is up to the beef industry to follow them.
 

feeder

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Now we probably know why the USDA increased their advertising stating how good everything was with their testing in the last months. I know I have black copters flying over my place, and they might be real this time. I better go look outside again.
 

Mike

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Reader, I guess they are kind of backing up what we have been discussing for quite a while. ALL SRM's should be removed from all cattle regardless of age because of all that is NOT known? Comprende?
 

Tam

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Mike said:
Tam said:
Mike said:
Here's the link to the USDA phone in discussion to reporters.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB?contentidonly=true&contentid=2005/06/0207.xml

Looks like we had an IHC tested cow that came back negative, then amplified the samples and tested with the "Prionic's Western Blot" and it came back positive. Obviously, the cow was in the first stages and had some prions that could not be detected using IHC the "Gold Standard" which is not quite as gold as they once believed.

Reader and I have been saying all along that if younger animals were tested using the Western Blot, we would be able to find those "sub-clinical" cases.

The consumer groups who have been threatening to blow the cover of the USDA were RIGHT it seems. This may turn out to be a big black eye for the USDA. Might be one reason Veneman is gone.

It's your turn TAM.

Why is it my turn I have guestioned the US BSE surveilance since the new system came in. I also thought if the US wanted to calm the suspicion around the multipal inconclusive test results of the Nov. Cow they should have sent the samples out of the country to have them confirmed. I was at a meeting in Feb and I was asked what I thought about the US testing and I told them then that the US will likely find a case of native BSE and I wouldn't be surprized at all if it was found by retesting the last BSE inconclusive turned negative cow.
Tell us Mike what is the US producers going to do now after R-CALF has said all meat from a country that has had BSE in their Native herd is tainted. Are you, Sandhusker and Leo going to stand up and tell the US consumer all about your firewalls and how you have had them in place for so many years and you put them in to protect the US Beef consumers and will they believe it now after all the media surrounding the USDA and the FDA.
I feel a bit sorry for the Governments too as I don't see this as all their fault. They set the rules and mind you they may have failed some in that BUT it is up to the industry to follow the rules but the government is getting blamed for the non-compliance of the industry. When is the industry going to take their fair share of the blame and clean themselves up. In the US, it seems to be eazier to blame Canada for BSE and blame the government for the rules and non compliance to them as it is to take responsibility for your industry. Feeding chicken litter may be cheaper but if it is putting your herd at risk why should it take a government law to get producers to stop it. If the law is to ban the use of ruminant proteins on ruminants then why should the government take the blame for the Beef industry not complying. do you put the law makers in prison when someone breaks any other law? no, you make the law breaker pay. If the consumer really wants to know where the beef comes from shouldn't the beef industry make sure that the packers have a way of guaranteeing that label if they put it on? No trace back is the US industrys fault too, faulty testing is also in part the industrys fault as they are not turning over the dead and dieing, and the feed bans is in great part the fault of the industry because they are the ones not complying to laws already on the books. Some in Canada also want to blame the government but it's not all the governments fault the lawsuit here is because the lawyers say the government should have known and made the laws sooner well the ranchers should also have known and they still needed laws to stop the feeding of that stuff. I will be watching the US producers to see if they will be sueing the USDA for the noncompliance, and the fact that they agreed that Chicken litter was a sourse of cross contamination and did nothing to stop the feeding of it. Canada's lawsuit is for 7 billion what will the US lawsuit be for?

Tam, I have been cussing the USDA since day one on testing methods, etc - same as you. I just left the floor open to you to speak your mind.
No insult meant. period.
Don't EVEN put me in the same category as Bullard. I have CONSISTENTLY said that I do not believe in some of R-Calfs rantings.
Sheesh, I give up.

Sorry Mike not all my rant was at you I just think the blaming of the government that some do because of the whole BSE problems is a little to much. We as producers have to shoulder our share of the blame too. It is not up to the government to save us from our selves. There are alot of things we as an industry can do to help and one of those is making sure that the cattle being tested are from the recommended catagory. We have all heard stories about the idea that BSE has been in the States for a while but the US industry lives by the 3S rule. Maybe it is time for the US industry, not the USDA, to prove those stories wrong. Maybe if the USDA really had to test the recommended cattle they would have had a few more inconclusves and would have had to show the true picture earlier. The USDA was not the only ones that didn't want BSE found in the US. We have all heard the stories about the non compliants of the feed bans why wait for the FDA to close the rule breakers down. Don't buy from them and make sure the fact is out that rules are being broken so nobody buys from them. That goes for feed manufacturers all the way to the producer that feed chicken feed to his baby calves because it is cheaper than buying antibiotics. They will either clean up their act in a hurry or go out of the business. There are alot of things that can be done at industry level if we really want to protect our interest. Look at the Trace back system in Canada our industry implimented it so we have something that we can work with we didn't wait for the Government and a bunch of politicians to tell us how we were going to do it. Not finding BSE in the Native herd was a blessing for the US but the US industry should have taken it as a warning to get things going at warp speed to protect yourselves not waste time blaming everyone else for the problems you face. Maybe more should live by the saying Gett-R-Dun
 

Mike

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"Infection of cattle by scrapie could also be considered since scrapie can be transmitted by direct contact between animals or through environmental contamination.13"

From the article Reader posted.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is profound! Atypical BSE might be scrapie?
 
A

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feeder said:
Now we probably know why the USDA increased their advertising stating how good everything was with their testing in the last months. I know I have black copters flying over my place, and they might be real this time. I better go look outside again.

Those ads have been the joke around here for the last week...It was only two months ago that USDA put ads on the local radio avertising the testing program- (do it because your granddaddy would have done it)- it was the first I and most around here knew anything about a testing program- than about 3 weeks ago those ads changed to the thank you ads, saying that their testing was done and how proud of ourselves we could be(slap ourselves on the back) :???: ..... Kind of a short testing period :?
 

Murgen

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Feel confident that they now know where this cow came from. What took them 7 months to determine that she should go for further testing, SHE'S AMERICAN" They were waiting to trace her and then use it to their advantage towards opening the border.

In the beginning, they were worried about showing that all positives came from Canada, but now packers and others are losing money, now they want to show that Canada is no different than any other country. In the words of the USDA " we want our export markets back, Canada's about to gain them, now it's time for sound science, we have BSE, but we have the safeguards in place."

Let's do the COOL thing and see what happens. I don't think the packers are bout ready to turn around from their expansion in Canada. They will be shipping beef from Canada now, taking advantage of the situation.

Thanks R-calf, you've helped out the ground roots producer!
 

SASH

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The timing sure looks suspicious to me. If the USDA has had this sample in its back pocket waiting to use it, how many other positive samples do they have that they haven't told anybody about? I think it speaks to the credibility of the whole BSE testing system in the US.
 

Maple Leaf Angus

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SASH said:
The timing sure looks suspicious to me. If the USDA has had this sample in its back pocket waiting to use it, how many other positive samples do they have that they haven't told anybody about? I think it speaks to the credibility of the whole BSE testing system in the US.

". . . credibility. . . " :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Mike

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Maple Leaf Angus said:
SASH said:
The timing sure looks suspicious to me. If the USDA has had this sample in its back pocket waiting to use it, how many other positive samples do they have that they haven't told anybody about? I think it speaks to the credibility of the whole BSE testing system in the US.

". . . credibility. . . " :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I concur with your subliminal characterization.

Fact is every animal that tests positive is worth lots to labs doing research. That's what was so funny when an animal that a vet said was positive and should have been tested had no samples on file. Remember that! They (USDA) claimed they kept the wrong portion of the brain????
 

SASH

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Maple Leaf Angus said:
SASH said:
The timing sure looks suspicious to me. If the USDA has had this sample in its back pocket waiting to use it, how many other positive samples do they have that they haven't told anybody about? I think it speaks to the credibility of the whole BSE testing system in the US.

". . . credibility. . . " :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now that you mention it, that is kind of funny. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Murgen

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Makes me kind of laugh, that all this time, the Canadians on this site have been open, almost too much, and then it comes out that the US has been hiding something. Probably in a hole. Sometimes we're too nice, but you know, honesty has it's rewards, we're about to reap them, and others are about to reap what they have sowed.

where is Haymaker, I've been catching up on posts the last hour and he's not even around? Hasnb't posted much since this "minimal positive, might be postive, sure looks like it's positive, tested three times, now it's positive thing has come up"
 

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