Big Swede
Well-known member
You mentioned in another thread a study that Circle A did comparing crossberd and straight bred cows. Are the results available to look at and if so where can I find them?
Northern Rancher
- Thread starter Big Swede
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nortexsook
Well-known member
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
I read it in a Hereford magazine down at my friends in Montana this fall. It basically just showed us what our Dad's and Granddad's already knew.
nortexsook
Well-known member
From the report:
>>Heifer calves were developed and
bred at Circle A's Lineville, Iowa, ranch.
The Hereford-sired heifers showed
their prowess as productive females by
boasting a 7% advantage in conception
rate over the Angus heifers<<
Where the rubber meets the road.
>>Heifer calves were developed and
bred at Circle A's Lineville, Iowa, ranch.
The Hereford-sired heifers showed
their prowess as productive females by
boasting a 7% advantage in conception
rate over the Angus heifers<<
Where the rubber meets the road.
Big Swede
Well-known member
One line that struck me was that a crossbred cow is 25% more productive over her lifetime than a straightbred cow. That means if you run 500 cows you get the production from 625 cows over the years. With margins getting narrower all the time that math is hard to argue with. I was talking to my banker last night and he said most guys who run 200 cows or less and have their wife working in town would be better off to sell the cows and do nothing rather than lose money trying to run a ranch. Kind of an eye opening statement but I know he's seen the numbers and knows what he is talking about.
Grassfarmer
Well-known member
I've always believed in this theory of hybrid vigor and have used it wherever appropriate in our cow herds over the years. The results of the research are not really a surprise to me but one part that does puzzle me is the supposed longer life of crossbred cows. Now I can understand them being in the herd longer because they are more fertile, less likely to be open but this research indicates they actually live longer too and I'm puzzled by that. I'm surprised that hybrid vigor can add years to a cows life especially given that the crossbred will have worked harder (reared bigger calves) than a straight bred cow.
Although the touted benefits of hybrid vigor $50-$100 per cow per year quoted in the articles is a goodly sum of money it is not the biggest issue for beef producers in Canada. Producers share of retail dollar has fallen from 24% to under 16% in the last 10 years. If we could reverse that so that we could gain the 24% again the price of fed cattle would double. I suspect it might be a similar story in the US and would have more to do with the <200 cow guys needing to quit than not using hybrid vigor.
I doubt guys will quit breeding straight Angus, too many dedicated followers of fashion and all :wink:
I'm also increasingly doubting that producers will work together politically to achieve a bigger share of retail dollar and that is a shame.
Although the touted benefits of hybrid vigor $50-$100 per cow per year quoted in the articles is a goodly sum of money it is not the biggest issue for beef producers in Canada. Producers share of retail dollar has fallen from 24% to under 16% in the last 10 years. If we could reverse that so that we could gain the 24% again the price of fed cattle would double. I suspect it might be a similar story in the US and would have more to do with the <200 cow guys needing to quit than not using hybrid vigor.
I doubt guys will quit breeding straight Angus, too many dedicated followers of fashion and all :wink:
I'm also increasingly doubting that producers will work together politically to achieve a bigger share of retail dollar and that is a shame.
Big Swede said:
Don't ever let yourself be fooled into thinking a banker knows anything about the ranching business or that they can tell anything about the business by looking at the numbers. I know on this place over the years if we had listened to the banker at different times we'd be right out of business. They have a habit of trying to convince you to borrow when you shouldn't and not lending when they should. Remember, many of these people can't figure out how an animal changes from calf to yrlg. to mother cow on the inventory sheet.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
That's a good point Denny!
Grassfarmer
Well-known member
As far as I know the level of hybrid vigor is diminished in each generation - that is to say an F1 female has a high level but if you then breed her straight for several generations the vigor will be reduced. If that weren't the case the hybrid vigor captured by McCombie when he combined the Angus and Aberdeen types of cattle to create the new breed would still be available today negating the need to outcross to create hybrid vigor. As the Luing breeds was recognised as a breed in it's own right in 1966 they have enough generations behind them that i'm sure the initial hybrid vigor is quite diluted now. Remember none of the cattle came out of the ark with purebred papers - the were all created by crossing initially.Denny said:
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Just cross a horned and a polled one you'll be good to go lol.
VLS_GUY
Well-known member
When you interbreed F1's the succeeding generations maintain their original performance as long as the heterozygosity of the F1 generation is maintained. Roy Berg demonstrated this at the University of Alberta Ranch and the Cadzow Brothers showed this when they developed the Luing Breed. If performance deteriorated over succeeding generations where would the Luing breed be now in Scotland?
Performance deteriorates over time when succeeding generations in F1 intrabreeding programs select for traits in the population. Selection causes inbreeding; particularly in small populations and it is this inbreeding that causes performance to fall in successive generations. In short homozygosity causes the performance loss not the crossbreed origins of the cattle involved.
Performance deteriorates over time when succeeding generations in F1 intrabreeding programs select for traits in the population. Selection causes inbreeding; particularly in small populations and it is this inbreeding that causes performance to fall in successive generations. In short homozygosity causes the performance loss not the crossbreed origins of the cattle involved.
Right or wrong I've got about 50 cows bred to a 1/2 hereford 1/2 shorthorn bull 90% of the cows are 5 plus generation's straight angus with a few red angus cows also. If we end up with any hereford looking steers we'll just feed them out.It's the heifers I'm really after.
Grassfarmer
Well-known member
VLS_GUY said:
So surely when a "breed" is created from F1 or any other cross breed sources the act of creating a breed, usually by a line or in-breeding start and then refining for the breed type is a homozygous activity by it's very nature? Thus any purebred worth it's salt should have a low level of hybrid vigor (heterosis) which gives the advantage when animals of two different and unrelated breeds are mated to each other. So to answer Denny's point hopefully my Luings aren't exceptionally old because of a high level of hybrid vigor or they won't be as homozygous as I'm hoping they are
Personally I think they get the longevity from the Scottish Highland - very long lived cattle that are also one of the oldest and purest races of cattle in Europe.
VLS_GUY
Well-known member
Grassfarmer,
You are correct to assume a purebred from any coherent breeding program will be less heterzygous than a cross bred. It takes many generations to achieve a high level of homozygousity in order for artificial selection for uniform type to make itself felt. In animals with short generation times like poultry or mice homozygousity is much easier to achieve because the generation turn over much more quickly. Also animals that reproduce at a more rapid rate like chickens or turkeys can have much more selection pressure put on their population since fewer animals must be kept back to maintain the population size. The population size is vital to maintain or eventually you won't have any animals to select from.
In animals with a low reproduction rate and long intervals between generations like cattle keeping the numbers in the population up so you will have animals to create genetic progress is vital. You need heterozygousity in purebred breeds to keep the population producing animals to select from. Note that I did not say maximize the heterozygousity in seed stock herds. Instead managing heterozygosity is the practical alternative. That means using different breeds in the maternal and terminal parts of the breeding program.
The Luing likely has good levels of hetereozygosity combined with selection in a tough environment for maternal traits. The breed has not had the decades of selection to eliminate the heterozygosity-yet. This has made for a unique little cow that should have a place in North America.
By the way have you seen a Highland Saler cross? From the point of view of growth improvement and uniformity in the calf crop I thought it worked the few I saw in Scotland.
Lastly what do you think of the Genus Bull Benhar Dynamite?
You are correct to assume a purebred from any coherent breeding program will be less heterzygous than a cross bred. It takes many generations to achieve a high level of homozygousity in order for artificial selection for uniform type to make itself felt. In animals with short generation times like poultry or mice homozygousity is much easier to achieve because the generation turn over much more quickly. Also animals that reproduce at a more rapid rate like chickens or turkeys can have much more selection pressure put on their population since fewer animals must be kept back to maintain the population size. The population size is vital to maintain or eventually you won't have any animals to select from.
In animals with a low reproduction rate and long intervals between generations like cattle keeping the numbers in the population up so you will have animals to create genetic progress is vital. You need heterozygousity in purebred breeds to keep the population producing animals to select from. Note that I did not say maximize the heterozygousity in seed stock herds. Instead managing heterozygosity is the practical alternative. That means using different breeds in the maternal and terminal parts of the breeding program.
The Luing likely has good levels of hetereozygosity combined with selection in a tough environment for maternal traits. The breed has not had the decades of selection to eliminate the heterozygosity-yet. This has made for a unique little cow that should have a place in North America.
By the way have you seen a Highland Saler cross? From the point of view of growth improvement and uniformity in the calf crop I thought it worked the few I saw in Scotland.
Lastly what do you think of the Genus Bull Benhar Dynamite?
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
I imagine a Highland/Saler cross would get the Highland Fling down pat. Saler cattle have alot of good things about them-temperment isn't one of them. I don't think I've ever seen one with bad feet though. When I used to order buy Saler bulls for people I'd sort them off by themselves and see how they handled it kind of got the bad wildies found out. I'll never forget the day we had 200 plus saler/angus long yearling steers out the beaver river meadows-we had them bunched and pretty much handled till a black bear decided to bust out of a willow clump right through them-made our day a bit longer. Put up more pics of Luings they are interesting.
Soapweed
Well-known member
Northern Rancher said:
A neighbor bred about a hundred and fifty first-calf heifers to Saler bulls many years ago. These calves were all in one bunch at their branding that spring. It was my privilege to be one of the ropers dragging those calves to the fire. They were wild kicking little buggers and would run from one side of the corral to the other en masse and horribly fast. My sentiments at the time were that roping in a herd of deer couldn't possibly be any harder. :? Saler cattle were a very short-term flash in the pan in this part of the country.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
I was at a branding in eastern Montana we did a bunch of Saler calves that were just like that-we were lucky to get done before the black leg expired. Probably the cattle left now are pretty good-it's hard to sell crap in an unpopular breed.
VLS_GUY
Well-known member
You guys forgot to mention that the Salers cattle in the 1980's were some of the worst fleshing cattle around at the time. The long and tall modern fad just about killed this breed along with the disposition problems.
Since these problems caused the bull market for the breed to evaporate the remaining breeders have come out with much improved stock. The idea to cross them with a Highland is to improve growth and milk while having better calving ease than a Simmental.
Since these problems caused the bull market for the breed to evaporate the remaining breeders have come out with much improved stock. The idea to cross them with a Highland is to improve growth and milk while having better calving ease than a Simmental.
Richard Doolittle
Well-known member
Silver said:
There are good bankers out there. The banking relationship is one of the most important, if not the most important business relationship there is for most of us involved in ranching. The key is to find a banker that understands you and your capabilities and a bank that does not make decisions based solely on balance sheet numbers and financial analysis. There's a whole lot more to it in this business.
