Northern Rancher

[Denny]

One line that struck me was that a crossbred cow is 25% more productive over her lifetime than a straightbred cow. That means if you run 500 cows you get the production from 625 cows over the years. With margins getting narrower all the time that math is hard to argue with. I was talking to my banker last night and he said most guys who run 200 cows or less and have their wife working in town would be better off to sell the cows and do nothing rather than lose money trying to run a ranch. Kind of an eye opening statement but I know he's seen the numbers and knows what he is talking about.

Don't ever let yourself be fooled into thinking a banker knows anything about the ranching business or that they can tell anything about the business by looking at the numbers. I know on this place over the years if we had listened to the banker at different times we'd be right out of business. They have a habit of trying to convince you to borrow when you shouldn't and not lending when they should. Remember, many of these people can't figure out how an animal changes from calf to yrlg. to mother cow on the inventory sheet.

There are good bankers out there. The banking relationship is one of the most important, if not the most important business relationship there is for most of us involved in ranching. The key is to find a banker that understands you and your capabilities and a bank that does not make decisions based solely on balance sheet numbers and financial analysis. There's a whole lot more to it in this business.

We have /had a Great relationship with our banker. She fell ill last week and died in emergency surgery at age 36 our little bank is a branch with 4 gals working together my banker and her sister and 2 very close friends. I was in the bank on thursday and the girls looked to be total wrecks. I could'nt imagine trying to do their year end work a day after her death.Our banks owner is very well educated in the goings on in agriculture so there's no bullshiting him.My old account man was brought back in to help out so I visited with him for a bit. I'm sure they will be fine but It'll be tough.A good banker is a asset to any ranch unless your not in debt at all.

 

[Big Swede]

It's kind of funny to hear all the stories that have turned into bias against breeds of cattle. All Salers are wild, all Herefords will prolapse, all Charolais will have calving problems, all Limousins are high flanked, hell pick your own breed and name the problem. If you looked at the Angus breed back in the 80's just about every one of those problems could have applied to certain herds. I know my Angus bull selections back in the 80's and early 90's brought on a lot of problems that it took years to breed out of the herd.
That was self induced and I have no one to blame but myself. At the time I thought I needed more growth and milk in my herd but if I would have just stayed the course I wouldn't have had to go on the roller coaster ride that I did. I also tried the Saler, Limousin, and Simmental experiment back then. We had much more hybrid vigor at the time but when I think back the uniformity of our calves couldn't have been very good. Not saying that breeding straight Angus is the right thing to do but at least the uniformity of load lots can't be denied.

Anyway back to the bias against certain breeds. I would venture to say that the seedstock breeders that are left have certainly improved their breeds of cattle or they wouldn't still be in business. Wouldn't that be a fair statement? Yet I'm sure most of us will hold on to our own biases as long as we are in the business because of our own problems from the past. Not looking to change anyone's mind just thought it was kind of funny.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Grassfarmer,

You are correct to assume a purebred from any coherent breeding program will be less heterzygous than a cross bred. It takes many generations to achieve a high level of homozygousity in order for artificial selection for uniform type to make itself felt. In animals with short generation times like poultry or mice homozygousity is much easier to achieve because the generation turn over much more quickly. Also animals that reproduce at a more rapid rate like chickens or turkeys can have much more selection pressure put on their population since fewer animals must be kept back to maintain the population size. The population size is vital to maintain or eventually you won't have any animals to select from.
In animals with a low reproduction rate and long intervals between generations like cattle keeping the numbers in the population up so you will have animals to create genetic progress is vital. You need heterozygousity in purebred breeds to keep the population producing animals to select from. Note that I did not say maximize the heterozygousity in seed stock herds. Instead managing heterozygosity is the practical alternative. That means using different breeds in the maternal and terminal parts of the breeding program.
The Luing likely has good levels of hetereozygosity combined with selection in a tough environment for maternal traits. The breed has not had the decades of selection to eliminate the heterozygosity-yet. This has made for a unique little cow that should have a place in North America.
By the way have you seen a Highland Saler cross? From the point of view of growth improvement and uniformity in the calf crop I thought it worked the few I saw in Scotland.
Lastly what do you think of the Genus Bull Benhar Dynamite?

Well this is turning into a very informative thread for me. I'm not entirely convinced the Luing breed will be that much more heterozygous than most in North America today after all the "continental" breeds here all had other blood infused to poll them and turn them black. Simmy, limo, salers, gelbveih to name a few and this was all done since the Luing was already a breed. I won't comment on the infusion of other blood in Angus, Hereford etc as I'm sure you all have your own views on it.
Like the other posters my view and experience of saler cattle is entirely negative. Believe it or not the Luing breed in Scotland had a "breed improvment" program in the 90s using saler :shock: :shock: The resulting stock were generally regarded as some of the worst to ever go through the pedigree sale. Taller, faster, snorty and leaner. The Saler cattle seem to suit the feedlot system better than grain finishing though - if you get them on feed early enough and push them they make impressive carcases. They were horrible on a grass system though - just kept growing frame and were very hard to finish.
As for the Dynamite bull I should probably be diplomatic and say "no comment" those that know me know that's not my style though so here goes :wink: ....
I would not use this bull - in fact I could probably not find any Luing bull in Scotland I would use. In my opinion they have completely lost the plot, and what they have done is a carbon copy of the mainstream Angus breed here. They decided to follow the fashion for bigger cattle without regard to inputs, its all about how many high priced bulls we can sell yet the breed set out to be a commercial breed devoid of the show ring antics that ruined so many others. Bulls there today are generally 400lbs heavier and in some cases 8 inches taller at the same age than they were in the early 1970s! Now no doubt some of that is more generous feeding but part is genetic too. Like the Angus here they maintain the pretense that this is all a bonus and that the cattle maintain their traits of easy care, low feed inputs, longevity that the breed was based on. BS I say - to quote Kit you can't get something for nothing - there is no free lunch and the truth is this has produced rocketing cow weights, higher feed requirements, poorer fertility, less longevity. I looked through a 200 cow herd there a couple of years ago with a view to picking a couple of good cows 10 years plus to take embryos from - they only had about 12 cows over 10 years old and they were pretty much all scrappers by their own admission - poor udders, feet or just worn out. This was one of the best herds in my view, moderate type maternal cows closely bred by someone like me with an interest in line-breeding. Yet the proud boast of the breed is that the average Luing cow still rears 9 or 10 calves in her lifetime - because back in the day before they decided to make their breed as un-Luing as possible by selecting for size, rate of growth etc they were regularly achieving 10 calves plus as my Luings here do.
The other problem I have with the breed in the homeland has been selection for double muscling - I use the word "selection" generously. :wink: Limo is the shape of cattle that sell in the UK and europe, lean red meat, plenty of bland muscle cuts. Rather like the fashion for black here this has resulted in every breed in the UK selecting for limo looking bulls. That's why I wouldn't use Dynamite - I don't want limo calves :wink: :wink: It should come as no surprise of course that using a lot of "limo type" genetics has led to cattle with more flesh, less milk and higher heads...enough said :wink:
Just in case I haven't turned everyone off the breed yet i'll post a picture of a modern cow on the island of Luing which is posted on the Luing society in Scotland website. All I can say is :shock: :shock:
Go to http://www.luingcattlesociety.co.uk/index.php?page=gallery and click on image 4/6 (the cow and the hot air balloon)
I should add the disclaimer that I have no cows that look like this and my breed objectives are 180 degrees different to those of most breeders in the homeland
NR I'll post some pictures of the few I have in a separate thread later.

 

[WyomingRancher]

Just in case I haven't turned everyone off the breed yet i'll post a picture of a modern cow on the island of Luing which is posted on the Luing society in Scotland website. All I can say is :shock: :shock:
Go to http://www.luingcattlesociety.co.uk/index.php?page=gallery and click on image 4/6 (the cow and the hot air balloon)
I should add the disclaimer that I have no cows that look like this and my breed objectives are 180 degrees different to those of most breeders in the homeland
NR I'll post some pictures of the few I have in a separate thread later.

Yep, I kinda think picture #3 "Time to Reflect" really takes top honors :lol: :lol: :lol: . It's obvious you're on a different path with your cattle .

 

[gcreekrch]

Gee Grassfarmer, you have a long way to go to "catch up". :wink:

Looks to me like you are doing fine in your own personal race. A few more years and they will be looking for your kind of genetics to "fix" their errors.

 

[VLS_GUY]

Grassfarmer,

What does Kit Pharo think of the Luing and Welsh Black? It would seem that his program and yours would be a natural fit. Also what breed would you cross with to get a F1 cow.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Grassfarmer,

What does Kit Pharo think of the Luing and Welsh Black? It would seem that his program and yours would be a natural fit. Also what breed would you cross with to get a F1 cow.

I've no idea what Kit would think of these breeds - maybe if he had some to sell they would be the best thing since sliced bread :wink:
Where our cattle differ is that ours are adapted to normally high volumes of low/mid quality forage where his are adapted to very short supplies of short grass in his arid area. The coats are very different also - ours are hairier than average whereas his will be as slick as I've ever seen.
I'm also getting increasingly wary of his "downsizing" genetics theories. I know there is a need for them currently and that is no doubt driving his very successful sales. I think ultimately it is just selecting for extremes though - in this case small versus big and although they are the right bull for many people to use on their oversized cows at the moment I think it's always important to have an end goal in mind. Breeding small to large reduces size and solves your immediate problem but is it sustainable? It seems the cattle business has always run in cycles - too big to too small and back again. Where the requirement has always been for something moderate sized.

 

[Grassfarmer]

VLS_GUY,
The Luing crossed with red Angus has worked well for us as an F1 and we have a couple of bull customers who do the same. Good hybrid vigor in the calves, steers that grass fatten well and good dependable cows. I realise they are not hugely differing types so we aren't maximising hybrid vigor with this cross but they are very complimentary. We have generally bought commercial RA cows rather than purebreds as they are smaller, easier to keep and more profitable.
Here are a couple of pictures

Angus cow with 5 - 6 month old calf.

Two grass-fed steers F1 Luing x RA, around 16 months old.