Oh Canada!

[borderancher2]

I have been thinking about this for a few days now, and I still don't really know how to approach this with my mostly US friends on this forum.

So, here goes. I believe it is finally Canada's turn in this world of ours. We have always been known as a "turn the other cheek, don't hurt anyone's feelings" kind of country, and we are proud of it. Our soldiers have fought, died and been buried with very little fanfare compared to those in the USA and other countries. Our troops are still fighting and dying in countries like Afganistan, quietly and honourably. We did not start this war, had nothing at all to do with that, but as Canadians we feel we are obligated to help improve the lives of those strangers to us that live there.

When BSE hit we let everyone in the world know it had been found, unlike some other countries who chose the "Shoot, shovel and Shut up" method of dealing with the issue. Although the pain of the disease was severe, many cattle producers are no longer in the business, I think we needed a wake up call!. Quit depending on the ole USA for our exports or for anything much. Find our own markets for our products like beef, grow up, learn to lead, not follow anyone else. We are on the brink of becoming the greatest most productive country in the world. As I heard on a Calgary news cast a few days ago, the whole world will come to our borders as we have, in abundance what the world will need. We have the food, which every living thing needs, the fuel to help us produce this food, the forests and all they offer in way of building shelter and the fertilizer which most countries need so badly.

We like to complain about our governments and the mistakes they make, but compared to some others, our economy is just fine. We have not made some of the mistakes even our neighbour to the south has made, according to what we hear on the US news broadcasts. Just how does a once powerful country get trillions of dollars in debt? I certainly don't know the answer to that, but I certainly hope Canada is strong enough to not follow their lead in whatever has happened there.

Recently we hear about how our dirty oil sands are the ruination of the world or at least both our countries. I visited with a man that used to live in that area. He said long before development was ever started, the dirty oil lay on the surface in some places, and Guess what?, ducks were already dying in those natural tailing ponds. I wish the US could do without our "dirty oil", and we could keep it all for ourselves, but once again, when the US has none and we have an abundance, we will be the helpful neighbour. Criticize it out of your mouth and try to steal it any way you can at the same time! I wish our greedy Ab. Gov would quit hassling we farmer types to give up our rights and keep quiet when those rights are extinguished so you can have our power for California. But, go ahead and criticize, any way you can but we are the ones who will pay for that huge transmission line. Maybe you could get your power from Japan, "Oh, I almost forgot, that country may never recover from what happened to their USA built power generators. Who really knows what the final result will be of all that radiation?

I could go on all night but I think you get what I am saying. "Oh Canada, Our home and native land. It's your turn to "shine in this world"!

That's how I see it anyway!

 

[burnt]

You said it well, borderrancher2.

:tiphat:

 

[mwj]

I can agree with about everything but the cheap shot at Japan. I think there suffering goes well beyond the scale of BSE problems in any country

 

[borderancher2]

You are right, I should have thought of a different example to use. I, too, can't even begin to imagine what a terrible disaster Japan is experiencing
and may continue to experience way into the future. I think many are being lulled into a sense of security by the media in our countries about what the long term results of the events in Japan will be. If I remember right Chernoble was not a "real big deal" for a long time after it happened either.
My "cheap shot" was not directed at Japan, more at the USA where, I have been told, these old, old generators were built. We all, personally or as countries have said and done things we later wish we hadn't said or done, so please forgive an old lady who has been in the business of helping supply protein to the world for the past 65+ years. I just do get a little cranky sometimes.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I can understand your sentiments and mostly agree with you.
Also I appreciate that you take a stand so we know how you feel.

Are you by any chance a member of the WSGA?

 

[borderancher2]

No, have never felt the need to be a member of an organized group. I went to a meeting of a local Dr. recruitment group just a few weeks ago and was almost elected to the board of the group. I backed out quickly when I asked "Who can we write/email about this issue? The then chairman, now the past chairman said "Oh we don't want anyone on our board to harass them(gov officials etc) so we don't want you to write any letters." I was pretty sure before that and real sure after that remark that I didn't want to have to abide by the dictates of any group and I will and do write letters, make phone calls, submit on this forum or anything else I can do as a citizen of Canada without the limitations organizations try to impose.

 

[rkaiser]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hQvxuJa8rOg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[per]

Couldn't get that to work Randy.

 

[Bward]

I always considered the oil sands a massive cleanup project with benefits. How could it be anything else?

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

No, have never felt the need to be a member of an organized group. I went to a meeting of a local Dr. recruitment group just a few weeks ago and was almost elected to the board of the group. I backed out quickly when I asked "Who can we write/email about this issue? The then chairman, now the past chairman said "Oh we don't want anyone on our board to harass them(gov officials etc) so we don't want you to write any letters." I was pretty sure before that and real sure after that remark that I didn't want to have to abide by the dictates of any group and I will and do write letters, make phone calls, submit on this forum or anything else I can do as a citizen of Canada without the limitations organizations try to impose.

I can understand your reluctance to be "Tied " to a group but much of what you said about the beef markets and being tied to the US is what I understand is where the WSGA is going. Yes they recognize the US is a major market but as a industry we have to look for other markets to access so all our eggs aren't in one basket. Also personal property rights is important to them. With out becoming a director or spokes person you can support a like minded organization.

 

[Shepard]

Yes Canada is great country.To survive all the liberal gov.ts we have had and still
be in shape we.re in shows how amazing this country really is.Do a lot of business in
the USA is still the greatest nation in the world.Love the attitude of the grassroots
Americans.Am sure there is like here.chicken eating liberal who like parisites live of the back of the working people.
Costs money to baby sit the rest of world.Thankfull they are our neighbours

 

[andybob]

To develop more industry, it is up to the middle income people to network to create new industries, then build on them. Many of the industries we had in Rhodesia started as out of the garage type manufacturing, then were exporting world class products within a few years. As with us, the real danger is from without, the UN petitioned by the liberal governments of the day destroyed the most developed economy in Africa (one Australian suggested jealousy was a strong motivation??)

 

[borderancher2]

You are so right! Although, as a Canadian, I have been trained my whole life to "turn the other cheek", to "see the best in everyone", it hurt SO BAD when BSE was reported in our province, of course it hurt because we went from being affluent ranchers to being almost destitute, but what hurt ME the most was that some of our neighbours living just to the south of us in Mt. "bought into" the idea that we, in Canada were somehow responsible for BSE in their country as well. We all knew what a farce that was. As Canadians, we told the world what we had, didn't use the old SSS routine! Not all my US neighbours did believe what their gov and their media was saying. One lady in particular cried with me and said "how can we be so cruel?" She is still one of my best friends anywhere.

But now that is done, time to move ahead!

What kind of a real mess would Canada be in if we had a real "foreign power" across our southern border? Although we sometimes get annoyed with the neighbours to the south, it is the same way we get "mad" at our kids, our siblings. We get over it , move on to other things, and be "friends" again.
If we were next door to a really big Afganistan, or any country with their record of human abuse and suffering, would we be the nation we are today? I think not! The USA "has our back" and like guys spoiling for a bar fight we need that "back up". It certainly trumps the BSE debaucle, which is in my "annoyance" category now it's over. The USA has always been there for us for the "big stuff" and I'm sure always will be, as Canada will be if that country ever needs us.

Thank you, for reminding me that my "annoyances" are not what being "good" neighbours is all about, It's so much bigger than power transmission lines, oil supplies, and even lost export markets (Sorry all, I still have a little trouble with that one, it's still "fresh" in the minds of all cattle people here in Canada.) I'm sure there will be other hard feelings between us and our big brother to the south. But in the end, we will forgive as family members should, and know that we can each count on the other should the need for it arise!

I know that we have all been calling those to the south of us Americans and north of the birder we are called Canadians, but if you look at the map of our world, we are ALL ,us too, North Americans!

 

[Shepard]

Nicely said Mrs borderrch
Am bit new here .but when RCALF started was.nt it about a border issue with cattle
coming north seems I remember something about blue tongue? Maybe something
else wish someone that knows would post.
Do.nt really blame US for what happen during bse.were some tough years before that
for em.Maybe if things were reversed we would have done the same thing.Am saying
this after losing some 6 figger money.will take few more years to recover.
But bet BSE is not a big deal after what you are going thru with your husband.
Sometimes we need to sit back and think about whats really important.Most times
its not money.BSE made the cattle industry in canada better.just my thoughts
Mrs Border wishing you the best with your husband.U.r in my prayers.

 

[per]

I am curious about your take here shepard. In what ways or how is the the cattle industry in Canada better than in say 2002?

 

[mrj]

Guess I understand your attitude against the USA.....to a degree. I wonder if you really know all you need to know about that BSE tragedy. I do know possibly more than average because my husband served on a state animal industry board at the time. That cumbersome name means food animal health issues are considered and solutions are proposed to producers and/or government agencies, if necessary.

First, I want to state that I do not believe BSE is really a problem for humans, since there have been NO absolutely proven ties to that and similar illnesses in humans, AND, even more because there have been such minimal deaths even loosely tied to that cause since the beginning of any knowledge of BSE and TSE's. I SUSPECT that BSE might be an anomally affecting VERY few 'animals' in several species, POSSIBLY even humans, but without actual ties to any sort of 'CONTAGION', or passing of it from one to another. That simply is my own 'wondering' on the subject because it fits rather well with what I've read over the years.

History: When it became apparent there was a serious problem in the UK, such boards in the USA determined that cattle imported from the UK must be 'de-populated'. That was a HUGE problem, since most of imports were very valuable breeding animals. Payments were not as high as owners wanted, however it was very successfully accomplished in the USA. Not so much in Canada, as I understand it. People in your cattle organizations and government should be able to tell you if I'm correct, or not on that point. I do NOT believe that there has been any large scale, official, or approved by any group, the use of SSS as a 'solution' to any BSE cases in the USA.

I simply cannot believe in the typical 'scare tactics' or 'conspiracy theories' claiming large scale of hiding such problems. I do KNOW that the US National Cattlemens' Beef Association worked on best management practices well before any outbreak in either the USA or Canada, in fact, worked with Canadian Cattlemen and gov't. agencies in both our nations, to assure BOTH our countries' cattlemen could survive any outbreak. They prepared consumers with information based on the best science available to show that beef was safe to eat. However, it is problematic that cases continue to surface in Canada. I'm sure that is being addressed, and remember, BOTH the USA and Canada are rated the same by international animal health organizations regarding BSE. I'm also confident that NCBA and our US animal health agencies has helped, not hindered Canada in attainig the best possible position re. BSE and trade.

I do believe you are rather harsh in your comparisons of Canada and the USA re. Oil, timber, and other trade. FACT: the USA does PAY for all that we receive from Canada. That helps your balance of trade. We do face common enemies, and both countries are going to suffer for allowing too many foreigners to enter our countries illegally, though we have definitely been the most foolish on that score, with our southern border.

mrj

 

[Shepard]

Per
We finally realized we should take care of our own industry.Do,nt think we are there yet.But like any set back or hardship,if you make it thru ,think your better of for it,Are work on markets out side the US now which we should have been doing before,Thru this we have a new president of WSGA who might not have run before .Cattle people have always come thru tough times,From Indain wars.to opening the west so sodbusters could safely distory much of the west that should not have been broke,We have always found a way to pull thru.Challenges have also made life interesting.Best feeling in the world being able to overcome.
Have good friends in The US ,they admit it is funny that if they could trace it back to Canada it was BSE, If not it was a false test.
So PER once we are thru this I belive the whole industry will be better.
will ph for vist one day

 

[borderancher2]

Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 3189

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:54 am Post subject:



Thanks for you comments mrj..

You wrote
"First, I want to state that I do not believe BSE is really a problem for humans, since there have been NO absolutely proven ties to that and similar illnesses in humans, AND, even more because there have been such minimal deaths even loosely tied to that cause since the beginning of any knowledge of BSE and TSE's. I SUSPECT that BSE might be an anomally affecting VERY few 'animals' in several species, POSSIBLY even humans, but without actual ties to any sort of 'CONTAGION', or passing of it from one to another. That simply is my own 'wondering' on the subject because it fits rather well with what I've read over the years. "

Questions:
If your "wonderings "are are common belief among people in scientific circles in the USA, what was all the FUSS about. If even a few hundred cattle were affected why were our exports stopped? Cows get lots of things that may be fatal to them, not a big deal. An animal dies or it recovers, too bad but it happens all the time. The public was told it was a FACT that bse was harmful to humans. Correct? Your comments about your opinions scare me. What was the real reason for "breaking" the Canadian cattle industry?

You wrote:


History: When it became apparent there was a serious problem in the UK, such boards in the USA determined that cattle imported from the UK must be 'de-populated'. That was a HUGE problem, since most of imports were very valuable breeding animals. Payments were not as high as owners wanted, however it was very successfully accomplished in the USA. Not so much in Canada, as I understand it. People in your cattle organizations and government should be able to tell you if I'm correct, or not on that point. I do NOT believe that there has been any large scale, official, or approved by any group, the use of SSS as a 'solution' to any BSE cases in the USA.

Question:
What you are saying here may be true. Lots of Canadian producers think so. Are you and your friends aware hat our Government is being sued by some Canadian producer groups for letting this happen?

You wrote:

I simply cannot believe in the typical 'scare tactics' or 'conspiracy theories' claiming large scale of hiding such problems. I do KNOW that the US National Cattlemens' Beef Association worked on best management practices well before any outbreak in either the USA or Canada, in fact, worked with Canadian Cattlemen and gov't. agencies in both our nations, to assure BOTH our countries' cattlemen could survive any outbreak. They prepared consumers with information based on the best science available to show that beef was safe to eat. However, it is problematic that cases continue to surface in Canada. I'm sure that is being addressed, and remember, BOTH the USA and Canada are rated the same by international animal health organizations regarding BSE. I'm also confident that NCBA and our US animal health agencies has helped, not hindered Canada in attainig the best possible position re. BSE and trade.

Comment: Of course producers didn't tell any health organization if they covered up a possible BSE. They had just seen what happened to Canadian producers when the disease was found here. Your producers are not that stupid!
In Canada we all got paid a little to have questionable animals tested, so that is what we did. The damage was already done, cattle prices in the toilet, might as well collect the $225.00, I think it was. By then we fighting for our financial lives! I have never said I have "Proof " of anything I have said on these forums, made it known its "just my opinion" But we , as producers we each probably talked to lots of producers, friends, relatives all over the USA, everybody knows someone in both countries. Word gets around even if no "Facts" are recorded.
Your last comment about your NCBA and your health agencies helping us made me smile, no, not smile, laugh out LOUD..

Your comment:

I do believe you are rather harsh in your comparisons of Canada and the USA re. Oil, timber, and other trade. FACT: the USA does PAY for all that we receive from Canada. That helps your balance of trade. We do face common enemies, and both countries are going to suffer for allowing too many foreigners to enter our countries illegally, though we have definitely been the most foolish on that score, with our southern border.

Comment: the USA is our biggest trading partner, of course we need you to import from us and sell to us. But couldn't you do it a little more kindly? When the "Free Trade agreement came to be, coffee shop talk here was. "It will never help us, as long as it is in the favor of the US it will be great, as soon as Canada gets benefit it will end" Already happened with lumber. Now our vast supply of oil is being called dirty and worse. We know you will criticise and try to make the price go down but Know what?, Canada does not control the price of oil. But in the end , you need our oil and you will pay if you have to, no choice.

Well, I guess we have had our sisterly disagreement. Hope it is soon over and family peace be restored!

How I see it anyway….

 

[mrj]

Peace be with you, also, borderrancher2!

Sorry if I appeared a little strident on this issue.

IMO, it is the gossip and fearmongering by too many people which made BSE such a problem for countries, including Canada, where it seemed to be prevalent.

My opinions re. BSE are due to so little ABSOLUTE verification, scientifically, of a link between BSE in cattle and the TSE diseases in humans, not anything else that may have been stated by scientists.

I believe BSE "broke" the Canadian cattle industry, and even occured because those imported cattle had NOT been successfully 'de-populated', and strains of it entered your cattle. THEN, your government may not have had an action plan to support the validity of precautions taken by the industry, if in fact your testing and elimination of risk materials at slaughter were in place at the time, causing undue panic to consumers.

Further, I believe closig our borders to your cattle was mostly because of undue panic and pressure on our government by fearmongering R-CALF leaders and others.

Believe, me, I've been 'trashed' often enough on this site to have 'calusses' on my feelings over my take on this issue. I'm open to changing those beliefs only IF and WHEN the best science avaliable shows a proveable cause and effect between BSE and human variations of that malady.

I sure don't know of any cattleman going out and shooting animals and burying them in fear of BSE. For one thing, most don't keep range cows to great ages, and most culls are healthy, when sold for food, or else they are processed according to the strict standards to eliminate POSSIBLY dangerous materials, certainly if they are over 30 months. There have been costs for this effort in lost value of the offal materials, is my understanding.

I've met some of your Canadian cattlemen who came to our US cattlemens' meetings to discuss this and other issues affecting us all. They are good people and I don't know as they share your belief that NCBA has NOT helped you any.

Surely each nation believes the other one got the best deal in trade agreements. I know cattlemen have long said we need some good old fashioned horse traders making those deals instead of wimpy bureaucrats!

I sure haven't heard ANY REASONABLE person complain about Canadian oil, unless it was to say Canadians just haul, or pipe it, across us to get it to the Gulf of Mexico to sell to other nations. ND and SD also have some oil from that same formation, is my understanding. I favor the current pipelines coming across SD, but some are complaining loudly this past week that Canada is going to be doing more condemnation lawsuits to get rights to pipe it across people who do not want it crossing their land. It is going in this area, and while there may be some hassles from all the traffic, most people favor it........anything to get more oil into commerce!!! And, IMO, the taxes paid and other fees are very generous, as are the precautions, if they will be as promised, to prevent oil spills and erosion in the areal. Most fighting it have agenda's of one sort or another, imo.

PS, I've been in the cattle business, to one degree or another, all my nearly 71 years, my husband for nearly 75. He's out riding, helping our grandchildren with calving as I write, and will be going full tilt at the rest of the ranch chores after he gets a knee replaced in a couple of weeks, and of course completes the therapy, which may take several weeks.
I really realize how blessed we are to be able to continue, and have total sympathy for your situation.

mrj

 

[Shaft]

Hi mrj,

Love you dearly, but have to burst your bubble on a few points.

The vCJD prion is identical to the BSE prion. Identical. Unlike other Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease variants it is not a misfolded analog of an existing human protein. How did it get there other than absorbtion through the gut like BSE does in cattle? Teleportation? Doubt it.

The good news is that in North America the odds of contracting vCJD are about one in 1.3 billion. Far more likely you will get hit by lightning.

You are right, the imported British cattle in Canada were not 'depopulated' before a BSE infected British animal went to routine slaughter in Saskatoon in October of 1992. This animal infected a Canadian animal whose rendered meat and bonemeal caused the first three domestic cases of BSE in Canada, including the one that closed international borders to Canadian cattle and beef on May 20, 2003.

The closing of the US border to Canadian cattle and beef was not the result of any political decision, R-CALF influenced or otherwise. It was automatic. Since November 1989 the US has had a regulation that mandates the immediate ban on the importation of cattle and beef products from ANY country that has even one single case of BSE (as confirmed by the Central Veterinary Laboratory in Weybridge, England). Think of a bear trap. It doesn't make a political decision to snap around your ankle when you step on it. It just snaps shut automatically.

The reopening of the border is another matter altogether. That was both political and incompetent, as in the USDA's failure to follow their own protocols. There may indeed have been undue pressure and panic involved as well. R-CALF was certainly involved.

Barley-finished Canadian beef is still the world's finest (that ought to spark some controversy). And I still love a 2" thick porterhouse hot off the grill more than anything except my wife and kids (and God).

All the best.