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Oldtimer admits MCOOL is a crock

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Bull Burger

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Oldtimer said:
I'm not sure this is an indication of that many less following the diet or rather that many less buying their high priced product...Being a diabetic, I try to follow a low carb diet- and tried many of the new low carb Atkins products that were introduced-- but with the Atkins craze I found that many companies began producing the same products at about 1/2 the price- and many more other new products.......Why buy the expensive Atkins name....

We are all grateful Oldtimer has seen the light. Consumers are loyal to a certain price/quality equation.
 
A

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Bull Burger said:
Oldtimer said:
I'm not sure this is an indication of that many less following the diet or rather that many less buying their high priced product...Being a diabetic, I try to follow a low carb diet- and tried many of the new low carb Atkins products that were introduced-- but with the Atkins craze I found that many companies began producing the same products at about 1/2 the price- and many more other new products.......Why buy the expensive Atkins name....

We are all grateful Oldtimer has seen the light. Consumers are loyal to a certain price/quality equation.

Same answer as I gave FH

Not so FH- -All were made in the US-- in fact my low carb- no sugar syrup, jam, bread, and barbeque sauce are all labeled made in New Jersey- but they are all sold in a local general outlet store- unlike Atkins products that are more expensive because of the Atkins name and that I have to go to a Billings (or other major city 300 miles away) specialty store, or order thru the parcel post with a huge shipping charge to obtain.... Much the same as if I want to buy US verified branded beef- in order to get it up here you need to special order it freighted in by refrigerated Air Express.....

Just like Taylor Brown said the other day on the radio- when the origin identified product is offered to them, they will buy it- no matter if its mandatory or not- people are awakening to the fraud being perpetrated to them by the beef industry and the cattlemen that call themselves that under the NCBA name .......... Would you buy a generic horse from someone that won't tell you its history, pedigree, or where it came from :???:
 

Tam

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Would you buy a generic horse from someone that won't tell you its history, pedigree, or where it came from
I wouldn't by a horse from someone that also says well it was born in the US but don't ask me where as I have no way of knowing. Until you get a National ID system that can verify where your cattle come from that is exactly what you will be telling the consumer.
 
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Tam said:
Would you buy a generic horse from someone that won't tell you its history, pedigree, or where it came from
I wouldn't by a horse from someone that also says well it was born in the US but don't ask me where as I have no way of knowing. Until you get a National ID system that can verify where your cattle come from that is exactly what you will be telling the consumer.

Which ear you sticking those "better than the rest of the worlds Canadian eartags" in your colts in :???: You can't be using affidavits (AQHA papers), or brands-- not trustworthy according to the wise ones from north of the 49th :wink: .......
 

RobertMac

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Tam said:
Would you buy a generic horse from someone that won't tell you its history, pedigree, or where it came from
I wouldn't by a horse from someone that also says well it was born in the US but don't ask me where as I have no way of knowing. Until you get a National ID system that can verify where your cattle come from that is exactly what you will be telling the consumer.

And what are you telling USA consumers about your beef?
 

adventureman

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And what are you telling USA consumers about your beef?

That it was born in Canada at a particular farm. It is the USDA that labels it after it leaves Canada with a maple leaf proudly displayed on it.

Which ear you sticking those "better than the rest of the worlds Canadian eartags" in your colts in You can't be using affidavits (AQHA papers), or brands-- not trustworthy according to the wise ones from north of the 49th .......

Yes, because any papers can and have been falsified. Go to a cattle show and count the large number of calves born Jan. 1, and look at some AQHA papers with the wrong birthdate, or the papers identifying one horse till it dies and then convienently another horse later on. I would say a vast majority of cattle producers don't brand, and in the US there can be overlap between states. Are RFID's infalable, no, but it is a huge step in the right direction and lightyears ahead of the US.

All were made in the US-- in fact my low carb- no sugar syrup, jam, bread, and barbeque sauce are all labeled made in New Jersey-

Then it isn't an argument of where the product came from. It is all about price. Also, you wouldn't go all the way to Billings for the real thing, so which urbanite is going to go through a huge effort, say driving across to the other side of the city, to get verified US beef?
________
hotbox vaporizer
 

RobertMac

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adventureman: "That it was born in Canada at a particular farm. It is the USDA that labels it after it leaves Canada with a maple leaf proudly displayed on it."

And what are you(the Canadian producer) telling USA consumers about your beef?

Answer...NOTHING, your beef isn't labeled as Product of Canada to the USA consumer, so your traceback system doesn't mean squat to the consumer and you are comfortable being a pawn for the USA packers.
The USDA doesn't label product...they(more specifically FSIS) approves labels for companies. A better question might be...why don't the packers that buy Canadian beef want the USA consumer to know it's from Canada????
 
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adventureman said:
And what are you telling USA consumers about your beef?

That it was born in Canada at a particular farm. It is the USDA that labels it after it leaves Canada with a maple leaf proudly displayed on it.

Which ear you sticking those "better than the rest of the worlds Canadian eartags" in your colts in You can't be using affidavits (AQHA papers), or brands-- not trustworthy according to the wise ones from north of the 49th .......

Yes, because any papers can and have been falsified. Go to a cattle show and count the large number of calves born Jan. 1, and look at some AQHA papers with the wrong birthdate, or the papers identifying one horse till it dies and then convienently another horse later on. I would say a vast majority of cattle producers don't brand, and in the US there can be overlap between states. Are RFID's infalable, no, but it is a huge step in the right direction and lightyears ahead of the US.

All were made in the US-- in fact my low carb- no sugar syrup, jam, bread, and barbeque sauce are all labeled made in New Jersey-

Then it isn't an argument of where the product came from. It is all about price. Also, you wouldn't go all the way to Billings for the real thing, so which urbanite is going to go through a huge effort, say driving across to the other side of the city, to get verified US beef?

To me it appears as tho it is more about convenience than cost-- I buy the products that are available at the grocery store- not the stuff that needs to be air freighted in- or I have to travel 300 miles to a specialty store for...But if all Beef was labeled as to country of origin-it wouldn't be a task to find convenient locations that supplied what you wanted.......At least you would have one more piece of info on what you were buying--

But I keep forgetting- AMI, Packers, Canadians and the NCBA don't want to give info to the consumers- take what we give you or shove it....And like Reader said- more are shoving it......[b]
 

Tam

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reader (the Second) said:
adventureman said:
Also, you wouldn't go all the way to Billings for the real thing, so which urbanite is going to go through a huge effort, say driving across to the other side of the city, to get verified US beef?

Unfortunately, you are correct. Instead, they would stop eating beef altogether if they couldn't find the quality and the safety guarantee in their neighborhood. Just ask me. I can only get range-fed GROUND beef in a nearby grocerty and that has cut our family's overall consumption of a broader spectrum of beef products down dramatically.

I have a freezer full of expensive, high quality steaks from before my husband's death (lots of freezer burn there folks since we're talking late 2003) which I will be dumping soon as my kids don't eat non range-fed any longer.

What safety guarantee does the M"COOL or verified US beef label provide? all the label means is where is was born and raised. But since the U.S. has BSE how does it guarantee food safety? And what safety guarantee is there in range fed or organic beef if BSE happens spontaneously or enviromently? I was going to comment about your last statement but why you waste a freezer full of expensive steaks is your business. I'm glad you can afford to support the misconception your kids are living with.
 

RobertMac

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reader (the Second): "Consumers are changing in many ways. No, not all of them, and no, not the poorest and less educated. But there's a growing number of middle class consumers who want and will pay for choices."

All those willing to pay more are well educated...that should tell us something!?!?

Tam, there are real differences, but an explanation would be futile. Do some research.
 

Bill

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reader (the Second) said:
adventureman said:
Also, you wouldn't go all the way to Billings for the real thing, so which urbanite is going to go through a huge effort, say driving across to the other side of the city, to get verified US beef?

Unfortunately, you are correct. Instead, they would stop eating beef altogether if they couldn't find the quality and the safety guarantee in their neighborhood. Just ask me. I can only get range-fed GROUND beef in a nearby grocerty and that has cut our family's overall consumption of a broader spectrum of beef products down dramatically.

I have a freezer full of expensive, high quality steaks from before my husband's death (lots of freezer burn there folks since we're talking late 2003) which I will be dumping soon as my kids don't eat non range-fed any longer.
Just curious Reader 2, do you drink, bathe in or cook food in chlorinated water?

What about beer from aluminum cans or cooking on teflon coated pans. Apples sprayed with Alar or some other chemical. How about that salad bar with all the veggies wthat were sprayed with God knows what? Was it all properly rinsed? :roll:

Too bad you let that nutritious, healthy beef go to waste. :!:
 

Tam

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Oldtimer said:
adventureman said:
And what are you telling USA consumers about your beef?

That it was born in Canada at a particular farm. It is the USDA that labels it after it leaves Canada with a maple leaf proudly displayed on it.

Which ear you sticking those "better than the rest of the worlds Canadian eartags" in your colts in You can't be using affidavits (AQHA papers), or brands-- not trustworthy according to the wise ones from north of the 49th .......

Yes, because any papers can and have been falsified. Go to a cattle show and count the large number of calves born Jan. 1, and look at some AQHA papers with the wrong birthdate, or the papers identifying one horse till it dies and then convienently another horse later on. I would say a vast majority of cattle producers don't brand, and in the US there can be overlap between states. Are RFID's infalable, no, but it is a huge step in the right direction and lightyears ahead of the US.

All were made in the US-- in fact my low carb- no sugar syrup, jam, bread, and barbeque sauce are all labeled made in New Jersey-

Then it isn't an argument of where the product came from. It is all about price. Also, you wouldn't go all the way to Billings for the real thing, so which urbanite is going to go through a huge effort, say driving across to the other side of the city, to get verified US beef?

To me it appears as tho it is more about convenience than cost-- I buy the products that are available at the grocery store- not the stuff that needs to be air freighted in- or I have to travel 300 miles to a specialty store for...But if all Beef was labeled as to country of origin-it wouldn't be a task to find convenient locations that supplied what you wanted.......At least you would have one more piece of info on what you were buying--

But I keep forgetting- AMI, Packers, Canadians and the NCBA don't want to give info to the consumers- take what we give you or shove it....And like Reader said- more are shoving it......[b]


So what, if you put the M'COOL label on, does that mean the consumer is guaranteed anything about the safety of the meat in the package? No it tells them where it was born and raised. If I were the US consumers I'm not sure I would trust US meat until the US system was caught up with the rest of the world with firewalls. You know what firewalls I'm talking about as they are the reason you don't want to open the border. What is protecting your consumers from the US native BSE if you fear your system can't handle any imported cattle. You yourself thinks it should stay closed until you can traces your cattle. So if you start putting that label on just what will it be telling them. It tells them only one thing that it was raised in the US but it really doesn't tell them where in the US because you do not have the capabilities of doing that with all your cattle. And if that M"COOL label is so important why is so much meat in the US exempt from being labeled. You think it is so important to inform the consumers why not tell them where MacDonalds or Wendys gets their hamburger.
 

Tam

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reader (the Second) said:
Tam said:
And what safety guarantee is there in range fed or organic beef if BSE happens spontaneously or enviromently? I was going to comment about your last statement but why you waste a freezer full of expensive steaks is your business. I'm glad you can afford to support the misconception your kids are living with.

First, I think Prusiner is offbase on spontaneous origin of BSE in cattle. Sure, there are possibly a few cases being spontaneous, but the bulk of cases have derived from feeding ground up animals (possibly sheep in the beginning) to cattle. I think human CJD being spontaneous is a crock of s**t and that will likely be proven in the next decade as more research is done. Only 10% of human cases are demonstrably genetic in origin and I assume those are from a spontaneous mutation.

Second, until you've been in my kids' shoes and seen what they have seen, you will have NO idea of their feelings. Call it whatever you like.

If it could happen like you agree it could, can you quarantee it won't happen in range fed beef?

I don't want to seem insensitive here as I'm truly sorry for what your kids have been through as everyone here is but I would like to know is why you keep bringing up the topic. Yes it was painful for them but repeatedly telling us about the misconception you allow them to live with is helpping them how?
 
A

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Reader: "Please tell me why I should force my kids to eat beef given what happened in the UK when they have seen what a TSE does to their most beloved father?"

That's easy!

Tell them their chances of dying of salmoenella (sp?) from eating chicken are far greater than contracting vCJD from eating beef from cattle too young to reveal prions.

They should be equally concerned about the pesticides and herbicides used to grow the produce that they eat.

Tell them the damn truth instead of feeding their fears.

They have a better chance of being bit by a rattlesnake as they are simultaneously hit by lightning than contracting vCJD from eating beef.



~SH~
 
A

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~SH~ said:
Reader: "Please tell me why I should force my kids to eat beef given what happened in the UK when they have seen what a TSE does to their most beloved father?"

That's easy!

Tell them their chances of dying of salmoenella (sp?) from eating chicken are far greater than contracting vCJD from eating beef from cattle too young to reveal prions.

They should be equally concerned about the pesticides and herbicides used to grow the produce that they eat.

Tell them the damn truth instead of feeding their fears.

They have a better chance of being bit by a rattlesnake as they are simultaneously hit by lightning than contracting vCJD from eating beef.



~SH~


~SH~ I get the feeling this family knows more about BSE, CJD, and TSE's than you could ever hope to know.... And you're giving them advice :???:
 

Tam

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BSE causes vCJD.

Has this been scientifically proven or are we still going on the assumption it does because they both showed up in the UK around the same time. I did a google search and this is one of the head lines I found BSE DID NOT CAUSE VARIANT CJD: ALTERNATIVE CAUSE RELATED TO POST INDUSTRIAL ENVIROMENTAL CONTAMINATION. And many other said it has not been scientifically proven that there is a link between the two, lots of assumptions but no proof positive.
And If BSE caused vCJD then why when there has been thousands of cases of BSE in 26 countries around the world have we only seen 150 cases of vCJD?

vCJD and classic CJD have practically the same symptoms and the same outcome -- always fatal, eats huge holes in the brain, and untreatable.
According to BSE info.com
Symptoms
Variant CJD differs markedly from CJD.
On average, the duration of the vCJD illness is 14, compared about six months for patients with sproadic CJD.
Patients afflicted with vCJD experience early psychiatric symptoms such as depression, earlier loss of coordination and later onset of dementia. In addition, vCJD has, to date, occurred predominately in people under the age of 55, a number of whom were teenagers, whereas CJD typically strikes older people.2, 8, 15, 18
Diagnosis
Diagnostic procedures for variant CJD are similar to those of CJD, keeping in mind patients with vCJD lack periodic sharp-wave complexes typically found on EEG results of sporadic CJD patients. Perhaps the most striking and consistent neuropathological difference between CJD and vCJD is found in the amyloid plaques. Plaques in vCJD cases are extensively distributed throughout the cerebrum and cerebellum, compared with the absence of plaques in CJD cases. Plaques in vCJD victims typically also have a dense center and are surrounded by a zone of spongiform change which give the plaques a daisy-like floral pattern. This pattern is not found in CJD patients.
enough said.

As for range-fed bearing some danger, that is simply unproven
So you willing to believe some unproven claims IE vCJD is caused by eating beef but others you won't ie range fed beef could be just as dangerous if BSE happens spontaneously.

for whatever reason and however misguided -- who are concerned about BSE and vCJD in the U.S. In fact there are tens of thousands of them by the way and possibly many more.
And if they listen to you and your kids instead of the science there will be alot more not eating beef. The fact is your husand didn't die from eating beef he died from a medical procedure and you are willing to blame beef to easy their worries. Feeding their fears is not healthy dealing with their fear by telling them the truth is.

And Oldtimer if you believe Reader is right to feed her kids fears then I take it you will not be in the beef industry long as now all beef in the US is tainted and unsafe because of BSE, even yours.
 

mrj

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Oldtimer said:
Bull Burger said:
Oldtimer said:
I'm not sure this is an indication of that many less following the diet or rather that many less buying their high priced product...Being a diabetic, I try to follow a low carb diet- and tried many of the new low carb Atkins products that were introduced-- but with the Atkins craze I found that many companies began producing the same products at about 1/2 the price- and many more other new products.......Why buy the expensive Atkins name....

We are all grateful Oldtimer has seen the light. Consumers are loyal to a certain price/quality equation.

Same answer as I gave FH

Not so FH- -All were made in the US-- in fact my low carb- no sugar syrup, jam, bread, and barbeque sauce are all labeled made in New Jersey- but they are all sold in a local general outlet store- unlike Atkins products that are more expensive because of the Atkins name and that I have to go to a Billings (or other major city 300 miles away) specialty store, or order thru the parcel post with a huge shipping charge to obtain.... Much the same as if I want to buy US verified branded beef- in order to get it up here you need to special order it freighted in by refrigerated Air Express.....

Just like Taylor Brown said the other day on the radio- when the origin identified product is offered to them, they will buy it- no matter if its mandatory or not- people are awakening to the fraud being perpetrated to them by the beef industry and the cattlemen that call themselves that under the NCBA name .......... Would you buy a generic horse from someone that won't tell you its history, pedigree, or where it came from :???:

While I have no numbers to corroborate my suspicions, my best guess is that there is a large number of forward thinking NCBA members who started putting at least part of their cattle into verified, labeled beef products quite early in the history of that venue. NCBA members stand strongly for consumer directed labeling right back to the ranch of origin under our private enterprise system. That is vastly superior to the government mandated, no producer responsibility for trace-back version under your COOL law.

MRJ
 

Tam

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No I don't believe everything I read on the internet if I did we wouldn't be having this debate as I would have believed you without doing a google to find out their are some in the know that contradict your version. Why should I believe you when I can read reports from experts that have been studying BSE and these two diseases for a lot long than you have. If you want to define the symptoms why waste your time on me why don't you do a google search yourself and find the names of all the people that contradict you and straighten them out. So when people like me do a google search we only see you version of the symptoms and causes. And I would bet you will probably hear "why should I believe you we have been studing it for years and your have only been involved for 24 months." :wink: So please do not waste anymore of your time on me, just get to work on the ones that write all those web sites that contradict you and give me reason to not believe everything I read on the internet.
 

mrj

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reader (the Second) said:
~SH~ said:
Reader: "Please tell me why I should force my kids to eat beef given what happened in the UK when they have seen what a TSE does to their most beloved father?"

That's easy!

Tell them their chances of dying of salmoenella (sp?) from eating chicken are far greater than contracting vCJD from eating beef from cattle too young to reveal prions.

They should be equally concerned about the pesticides and herbicides used to grow the produce that they eat.

Tell them the damn truth instead of feeding their fears.

They have a better chance of being bit by a rattlesnake as they are simultaneously hit by lightning than contracting vCJD from eating beef.



~SH~

I gather that you (1) have never been a parent and (2) have a low quotient of empathy. :evil:

reader 2, SH gives you valid reasons to show that the incidences of human illnesses which SOME scientists believe may POSSIBLY be related to eating BSE contaminated tissue, NOT muscle meats, causes far more deaths than vCJD has and you throw the emotional factor of your family's history at him rather than refuting his comments with facts. Realizing your real feelings on this issue, we need to deal with FACTS, not emotions. If and when your heartfelt emotions won't let you do that, we do sympathize with you, but it does nothing to eliminate those diseases in people or cattle.

Can we agree that respected scientists do disagree on BSE and vCJD, and that neither your version, nor any other is set in stone as the only acceptable version by peer reviewed scientists?

MRJ
 

Mike

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MRJ wrote:
NCBA members stand strongly for consumer directed labeling right back to the ranch of origin under our private enterprise system. That is vastly superior to the government mandated, no producer responsibility for trace-back version under your COOL law.

MRJ, could you show me the part in the "Government Mandated COOL" that says there is "no producer responsibility" for trace-back?

I seemed to have missed that part. :???:
 

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