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Opinions/Suggestions/$0.02 needed.

I

IluvAltaBeef

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
271
Location
Alberta
I've been given some great info by a friend on CT on crossbreeding, but of course ye can't really go on with info from just one source, 'cause ye need a bunch of different sources in order to make a GOOD (and solid) decision.

Anyway, what's the best way to go, for someone like me:

1. Foundation herd are straightbred Herefords bred to purebred Angus bull to produce baldies (heifers and steers) that are sold for market (premium, obviously); buy replacement straightbred Herf heifers

OR

2. Foundation herd comprising of F1 Black Baldy cows bred to a terminal bull (either Simmental or Limousine(?)), and sell both steers and heifers for premium; buy replacement F1 heifers.


Maximum size herd is about 60 animals. Starting size: about 5 or 6 cows. These are part of the plans for a future herd I plan to start in a few years down the road.

Thanks in advance. :)
 
Things I have learned from listening:

Buy the best stock you can. If you get two great cows you are far better off than buying 6 average cows. The great cows will give you better than average stock and the average cows will keep your herd well um average.

Feeding the extra 4 just drains your money pile. It costs the same amount of money to feed crappy cows as it does to feed good ones. And in truth the better cows will probably cost you less to feed anyhow as they have been bred to work for you.

Find a great mentor. Someone who really wants to help you do the best you can. Not just someone who will take your money.

Cull, Cull, Cull and if you can't do it get someone who has been in the biz to help you. Remember your cows should be getting better and better with each generation.

Listen to everyone you can and ask intelligent questions. People will help you if you ask.

People from all corners on this board seem to really like baldies, there has to be something to that. They seem to make cattlemen all over happy which to me means that they are truely a "performance cow"

Type in baldies on google . You will find a zilliion article on performance.

and last but not least a good word of advice is be kind to Mrs. Greg or she will take your Kucken away!
 
i agree with Judith but i also have some black baldies bred to a black limo,they make some awesome replacments also,the blacks bring the most around me,that will help with your choices also for terminals of what sells best in your area
 
IluvAltaBeef said:
2. Foundation herd comprising of F1 Black Baldy cows bred to a terminal bull (either Simmental or Limousine(?)), and sell both steers and heifers for premium; buy replacement F1 heifers.
Click to expand...

I'd do something in-between: Start with crossbred F1s of known breeding, then buy a bull of one of the two breeds in your cows. You can keep good offspring for you own herd or to sell, plus you still have good crossbred calves to take to market. While your replacements aren't going to be F1s, they aren't going to be mutts and will still benefit from a 3rd breed terminal cross later in life.

Then, once you hit your 60 target, move to a terminal cross. I like Simm terminals and had the best luck with them, especially now that Simm breeders are pulling down frame sizes a bit.

This is how I got my commercial herd started, and indeed, its how I'm still working my herd. You'll make good money with the proper selection of your breedstock and bulls. Definitely never short change your bull. Buying cheap will bite you in the butt. I'd even recommend AI until you gain a few more animals, then lease a clean up bull from somewhere.

While I like a good baldy cow, and my herd started with good baldies, don't sell ShorthornX animals short. The absolute best commercial cows in my herd are Shorthorn/Angus and Shorthorn/Simm crosses. While they don't 'blow away' the baldies, they definitely stack more weight on the calves while having the same or lower maintenance requirements.

Rod
 
THanks for the replies. I think the starting part will be the most difficult, because it's the purchasing the RIGHT cows and finding who to sell to, who to buy from, getting other things all ready, etc. AND the deciding.

But once that's in place, then I guess it gets a little easier from there. Lots of work, but at least I'll know what to do.

For the shorties, I MIGHT consider that later on when I have a fairly good size herd (let's say 20 less than the target) just to see where they take me.

Thanks again.
 
If you are starting from scratch buying cows, with no "traditional herd" to work into the equation, my advice would be to buy five or six good Angus cows with which to begin your herd. Use only Angus bulls on these cows and keep the herd straight one breed. You will have wonderful heifer calves to use for replacements, and if you keep the quality up, others will be interested in purchasing heifer calves that you don't need for replacements in their herds. It is never hard to sell high quality Angus steer calves.

There is a certain satisfaction in watching your homegrown heifer calves turn into producing cows in your own herd. There is a definite advantage in keeping things simple. By using straight Angus genetics, things are kept simple, and you will have a solid colored herd with eye appeal. Too much crossbreeding only complicates the raising of cattle, and it can result in a cobbled-up herd that gets hard to get back on track.

Good luck, and have fun doing what you like to do.
 
I would personally try to raise my own heifers off proven cows instead of buying in heifers, as this can be a real crapshoot. If you're buying in heifers, there's a good chance that probably at least 30% won't turn out. Don't forget about your grass and your soil fertility. This is where your real profitability lies. You can manage your cowherd to increase or decrease your grass(and soil fertility). Instead of having a certain number of cows in mind, match your cow numbers to your grass that you have available now. Your cows can grow you more grass on the same landbase if you manage them right, and then you can increase your numbers. Think of your cows as a tool for increasing your soil fertility(more grass). Have fun and good luck.
 
Thanks all! You have a lot of really good advice to go with that I will integrate with what I plan to do, and I really appretiate it!

I am going to be starting from scratch, btw, and I've been asking around for more info, plus doing searches on here and CT for anything I might have questions about, in my spare time between school work.

So, thanks again, folks!
 
For a commercial operation, take advantage of hybrid vigor every chance you get. The maternal hybrid vigor offered by the F1 cow is the ultimate money-maker for a terminal crossbreeding program. That F1 British cow crossed with a Continental bull will raise a calf that will really mash on the scales.
 
First and foremost before one critter sets foot on your place, have all your workin facilities built. And a trailer to haul them in. Nothin worse than someone gettin animals and no pens to catch them in, or a trailer to haul em with.
 
ILuvAltaBeef-

I have read the posts here concerning your questions regarding "Cross Breeding" cattle.

First: Log onto "Google" or "Dog Pile" and type in the title box "Cross Breeding Beef Cattle". That's ALL. Don't get cute and try to get specific about breeds, or feed or anything else. Just "Cross Breeding Beef Cattle" Then, when all 84 or so articles come up on your screen, pick as many as you care to and read them, or print them out and save them for reading and re-reading later.

Most of the answers that were given are reasonable answers - - AS FAR AS THEY GO!" They don't go far enough. This is like skimming Water Skippers off of the top of a pond! Here is just one example:

http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/lvstk2/C714.PDF

There are so many things that you can do that it boggles the mind. Don't let your mind get boggled! Keep it simple - but DO IT RIGHT! And don't believe everything that some so-called expert says is gospel! It may be, but make up your own mind.

Another source of common sense, down to earth , real life cross breeding explanations for you to think about is this:

www.leachman.com

Ask them to send you their "Cow Size Matters" catalog. Forget the animals in the catalog insofar as your buying them because you are not ready for that yet. The pages of explanation will get you prepared for knowing what you want to do, and how to do it. It is down to earth, realistic stuff, and you can take it or leave it. But it will make you MONEY, and that is what we all want.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

DOC HARRIS
 
In my humble opinion, I think that any advantages gained by crossbreeding in a fifty to sixty cow herd could be lost because of the cobbled-up factor that will be the result. If there are fifty to sixty nice uniform moderate-sized all Angus cows, bred to similar type Angus bulls, the resulting offspring will also be nice and uniform. Daughters of these cows will be excellent replacements. Say you get 25 nice heifers and 25 steers--keep 10 heifers for replacements and take the remaining 15 heifers and 25 steers to a sale barn. They will look nice and uniform going into the ring, and there will be enough of them to interest potential buyers. They may not weigh as much as "cross-bred" calves, but they will probably bring just as many, if not more, dollars per head.

You will have the satisfaction of developing your own herd from your own females. If you handle them gentle, they will stay gentle. If you rely on other breeding programs to obtain replacements, keep in mind that you never get their very best. Those are retained by the breeder. The ones for sale are their "seconds." Often times, disposition can be a problem in purchased heifers. Sometimes, it is merely a case of the more times they are handled and hauled, the wilder some of them seem to become. With home-raised heifers, kept and developed at home, the ramming and jamming of these future cows is kept to a bare minimum.
 
You all are incredible! :D Absolutely incredible!

Lilly, I'm planning on using the home farm as a starting location for the first animals of mine, and there are already facilities set up, they just need to be updated to provide a bit better handling. I've got hold of a friend and he had sent me a reccommended plan for GOOD handling facilities. I already know about that, but thanks anyways. :wink:

Doc, THANK YOU for the links. The first one I already have saved on my desktop and printed out to read in my spare time, along with several other articles onthe same subject, and the second is in my favorites...gonna have a look at that little later on.

Now, someone on here mentioned about angus...I am thinking about going with Hereford, BUT, from what I've experienced with the steers that have come on and off this farm, the angus cattle, both red and black, are another favorite of mine (I'll admit a little more than herfs, though the herf steers have been pretty good too). So maybe, can you folks give me a comparison of Hereford vs. Angus (both pros and cons of both), somethings to get me thinking, along with the two cents you've been giving me in these past posts if you think of anything.

Thanks again. :) :)
 
I'm not knocking Herefords here, mind you. This country was
made by running Herefords...BUT...

Black Angus are WAYYYYYY more problem free. No sunburned
bags, no cancer eye, no prolapses, usually better udders, more performance and naturally polled.

The calves from Angus mothers USUALLY outweigh calves out
of Herefords.

Now if you need to run cattle with low inputs, Herefords might
be the breed of choice. Because they don't perform as well as Angus,
they can run on less. You will see fat herefords, where you might
not see fat Black Angus because of what each puts into their
calves. Ray Bannister at Wibaux, Mt. runs Herefords in a special deal.
What he does with Herefords, Angus would not be able to do, IMO.

Oh, let the war begin. :P

Actually, I admire some things about Herefords. It is just that
we would NEVER go back to running them on our place. Just too
much work.

Herefords tend to be more gentle as a whole, but nothing is 100%.
We had some darn mean and wild Herefords in the past. We ran
Herefords from the time we started in this business in 1965. Because of
too much cancer-eyed cows, we started the
switch to Black Angus in 1979 and never looked back.

I will tell you that both Hereford and Angus (British cattle) mineral requirements are less than some exotic cattle.
 
Soapweed said:
If there are fifty to sixty nice uniform moderate-sized all Angus cows, bred to similar type Angus bulls, the resulting offspring will also be nice and uniform.
Click to expand...

While I don't disagree with this statement, I'm not sure why, if she had 50 - 60 moderate sized baldies, she couldn't get the same uniform calves. Sure, some are going to be white faced while others are black, but that isn't going to sting you at the barn (at least not around here, all blacks sell in the same pens as baldies and blazes). A good set of F1 baldie or blazes will deliver every bit as much consistency as a set of commercial all blacks will. Breed these back to one of the 'fake' blacks like a black Simm or black Limo and you'll have cookie cutter calves that'll outweigh the straight Angus calves by 20 or 30 lbs at weaning time.

Edit: I forgot she was planning to breed these to a Hereford bull. Color is going to be all over the place with the F1 baldie cows but not with all blacks. She should get baldies and blacks. Besides, don't you guys have pre-sort sales down there?

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Soapweed said:
If there are fifty to sixty nice uniform moderate-sized all Angus cows, bred to similar type Angus bulls, the resulting offspring will also be nice and uniform.
Click to expand...

While I don't disagree with this statement, I'm not sure why, if she had 50 - 60 moderate sized baldies, she couldn't get the same uniform calves. Sure, some are going to be white faced while others are black, but that isn't going to sting you at the barn (at least not around here, all blacks sell in the same pens as baldies and blazes). A good set of F1 baldie or blazes will deliver every bit as much consistency as a set of commercial all blacks will. Breed these back to one of the 'fake' blacks like a black Simm or black Limo and you'll have cookie cutter calves that'll outweigh the straight Angus calves by 20 or 30 lbs at weaning time.

Edit: I forgot she was planning to breed these to a Hereford bull. Color is going to be all over the place with the F1 baldie cows but not with all blacks. She should get baldies and blacks. Besides, don't you guys have pre-sort sales down there?

Rod
Click to expand...

You are right, Rod, but the problem comes with trying to maintain that good uniform set of F1 baldy cows. IluvAltaBeef would always be at someone else's mercy when it came to buying her replacement females. By having a straight herd of moderate Angus cows, and raising her own replacements, this would never be a problem.

Even from the income tax aspect, I think you are better off not ever having to show the income on the sale of heifer calves that end up being in your herd. Otherwise, you sell the terminal cross heifer calves (paying taxes on the income), and then have to buy back replacements (which you do get to "depreciate"), but all in all I think you are better off never showing the income in the first place.

Heck, all this is just a good mental exercise in "theory," anyway. :wink: You can see by my pictures that I don't completely practice what I preach, as our herd has both red and black cattle, and even one occasional Hereford. :roll: :-)
 
I'm with Soap here...absolutely raise your own replacements...that's the only way you will get a meaningful, adapted to your natural resources foundation herd. I posted a question sometime ago as to what was better...raised or purchased replacements. Most of the ones giving you their advice said raised! Once you reach your 60 head goal, your heifers will be worth more as replacements than your steers will bring. Sell your bad disposition heifers with your steers...give the rest a chance to breed. Start your breeding for them to calve at two and leave the bull with them. Keep the ones that calve in the first 45-60 days and sell the rest as breds or pairs. Reproduction is the most sensitive indicator of adaptation.

Find a long time closed herd linebreeder to purchase your foundation cattle...30+ years. They will have eliminated genetic problems for you and all the good ones will be raising their purebred under commercial conditions or tougher. This was the biggest improvement I made to my herd (70+ years closed, linebred genetics).

Here is a book well worth purchasing...

http://www.isacattleco.com/Beefmasters/miscellany.html

"The Lasater Philosophy of Raising Cattle"

Tom Lasater was friends with the man I think was the very best cattle researcher, Dr. Jan Bonsma.

My best advise is...this advise is worth exactly what you paid for it! :wink:
 

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