Packer May Sue Inspectors

[Jason]

Jason, the cheap food policy is the U.S.D. A. policy. I wish you had something else in your post worth responding to. Do you even know what the elasticity of supply and demand of beef is?

Where does USDA say how much the food bill for an average family should be?

The USDA is responsible for things related to agriculture, not domestic policy.

I know what the elasticity of the supply and demand of beef is, do you know what the cattle cycle is?

Is the USDA, Tyson or any other organization responsible for ranchers retaining heifers or selling cows? If so how?

 

[rkaiser]

Jason

I guess Randy and Mike have nothing to offer either.

I offered lots the other day on the thread you started calling for a new cattle organisation, why didn't you respond to that offering? 8)

 

[Jason]

No, your tearjerking story left us speechless. We are so ashamed of ourselves for picking on the conglomerates. If only we could make it up to them somehow. :roll:

Funny Mike.

I never said big corps need sympathy, nor did I say stop looking over their shoulder.

However, when there is no proof of illegal activity, why should we waste time chasing shadows?

For some it is easier to blame others rather than realize maybe they can't survive in the real world.

Bigger ranches swallow up smaller ones, yet no one here seems to mind that. Cor Van Raay Farms has more cattle than Tyson or Cargill in Canada, yet no one whines about the subsidies he received or how when he steps out of the market the price falls. Sunterra Farms owns cattle and their own packing facility. They are diversified into pork as well, they control nearly all their production, but no one says word one about the subsidies they received. Not that they should, unless they are somehow less culpable for doing the same thing Tyson/Cargill does.

 

[Mike]

However, when there is no proof of illegal activity, why should we waste time chasing shadows?

In a Federal Court here in Montgomery, Alabama, Jason, a jury of 12 found Tyson guilty of price manipulation. No, I take that back, they never said Tyson was guilty, but they awarded the plaintiffs $1.28 BILLION. I guess they did that with no proof?

These jurors were NOT ignorant people either Jason. Most were college graduates and professional people. They agreed unanimously! How can that be with NO proof? You got it all wrong Bubba, you are the one chasing shadows!

 

[Tam]

Econ just how much do you know about Tyson strike as you seem like always to be blaming Tyson for it?

I decided to do a google search on the issue and thought I would read the Unions side first. I went to a site the Union had put up for their member to get information and comment on the strike. Since it's titled Terrible Tyson I thought I would be reading how the union member supported the strike and how they think the Union is doing a good job representing them Was I ever surprized at what I read coming from the members of the UFCW.
How they hate what is happening and how they think the Union is just out for revenge for what happen 20 years ago when IBP owned the plant.
That Over 50% of the workers showed up for work the first day and even more showed up the second day.
How the union wants IN to the plant and they don't care what the cost to the members will be.
Another said if they didn't stop they would have his membership cancellation within days.
More than one of them commented on the decertification petition that is to be voted on.
One even said he figured the vote that got them into the plant was 51% but the vote to get them out could be closer to 70%.
Most of them commented on the actions of the union leader and how he brought this strike to the violent clash all on his own.
I guess the one that got to me was the one from the union member that was a single mom that had come to the plant years ago and how she thought it was the best paying job she could find with great beneifit. How she had provided a confortable home for her family. And was not will to risk it for this Unions revenge.
One commented about how the picketers are people from other businesses.
Another said the so called slabs that Tyson brought in to break the union strike were long time employees of that plant.

Some did comment on the working condition but none of them seem to feel that they were something that should be an issue to strike over.

One poster even said this strike was over diginity and respect. After a day of calling coworkers filthy name, flipping them off and threatening personal harm to them the picketer realized it was the union that had brought on the undigified behavior and decided the next day he/she would go back to work where he/she could get his/her diginity back.

This is a Quote from one poster on the UNION INFORMATION WEB SITE.

The biggest effort to break this union is coming from the employees. WE are sick and tired of unending negotiations and a union that is bent on strike.

To say the least this is not what I expected to read on this Union website.
So what do you think Econ is the strike the fault of Tysons treatment of their workers, or could it be like the Union members say an act of revenge by the Union that doesn't really care about what it cost the workers?

 

[rkaiser]

Jason -

Bigger ranches swallow up smaller ones, yet no one here seems to mind that. Cor Van Raay Farms has more cattle than Tyson or Cargill in Canada, yet no one whines about the subsidies he received or how when he steps out of the market the price falls. Sunterra Farms owns cattle and their own packing facility. They are diversified into pork as well, they control nearly all their production, but no one says word one about the subsidies they received. Not that they should, unless they are somehow less culpable for doing the same thing Tyson/Cargill does.

Good of you to mention these guys Jason. Cor Van Raay is one of the major investors in the Ranchers Beef Packing plant initiated by Sunterra, or the Price Family. I wonder why? Could it be that these folks felt the unfairness of a system that allowed Cargill and Tyson to legally take millions from their pockets during the Salmon Run. AND receive millions of dollars in aid from the government at the same time. Should we remind everyone Jason, that the Price family did not have slaughter capacity until well after the border was closed and Tyson and Cargill had cheap cattle, government aid, and an open border to sell boxed beef. AND their plant that will kill 800 head per day (Not 5000) will likely not open until late spring of 2006.

Good gracious Jason. What is in it for you. Why do you feel the need to defend Cargill and Tyson from some smart mouthed cattleman who simply sees unfairness in what happened since May 20, 2003.

Yes this business is on a course set by government and those who lobby government who beleive that efficiency means bigger and fewer. I am sorry, but I don't beleive that. How far would you like to see it go Jason. Do you want to see Sunterra (who is a substantial step down from even one of Tyson's world full of plants) FAIL. Would you be proud of yourself if calf prices made a buck eighty next year and the only two buyers left were Cargill and Tyson? Would you have proven your point?

Nothing changes Jason, if we continue to turn our heads. Someone has to take the scorn of SH and the gang. Or the packers themselves, should they blackball that someone from their buying list. Are you afraid Jason? Is that your story? I know a lot who are. A lot who paid a membership to BIG C just because Cam was not afraid, but told him not to mention their names.

The BSE debacle in Canada was a tragedy. For whatever reason you do not want to admit it. If you are in the cattle business Jason YOU lost money. Or at the very least, a pile of equity. How can you sit back and take that and defend Cargill and Tyson who you know damn well made a pile of it. NOT THEIR FAULT. Sure. But does that make it right?

 

[Econ101]

Jason, before you go on about this issue any more why don't you do a little research on the subject. I have mentioned a few books on this forum but you would do well to google and pick one up yourself. The Robber Barons, by Matthew Josephson was written in the time period that this happened in the last go around. You have no economic background to see the bigger strategic plays behind the small ones that you use to argue your views. You have no history of this industry and how economic power was used the last go round not only in the beef industry, but in the industries of America. There is power in "efficiency" and it is being used to gain market control of the animal protein industry of the U.S.

The profits are being used by wealthy american families to support their dominance in the industry through political donations directly as posted on this board and to the right wing of the republican party. Funny it is the same party that took over the U.S. govt. the last time under these circumstances. You need to dry the "wet" out behind your ears before you talk on these issues instead of jumping on the merry go round. Price manipulation was proven in a court of law and the judges who overthrew the decision misconstrued the case when they inkled that there was no evidence and then they misused the economic reasoning of the RPA to justify their decision. In addition they wrote in "legitimate business reason" with a few cases they had in the system to justify their decision.

A legitimate business reason for having captive supplies is not, no matter what SH and Agman say, a legitimate reason for abusing those supplies. I have accused Agman of jumping to conclusions of "legitimate reason" meaning the above before on this forum.

The elements of the Pickett case were carefully gone over by attorneys for IBP and Tyson long before it played out. They knew what information they had to hide and if the economists and lawyers (Jo Ann Waterfield) at the OGC and PSA, and USDA were doing their jobs, they would have required that type of evidence of reporting by the packers. This was an inside job by either corruption, or incompetence. Take your pick. Jo Ann lost the case in the PSA process and was then asked to be acting GIPSA Secretary.

The people in charge of that promotion (Senators and Congress men with oversight and responsibility that make recomendations to the President of the United States) have done a disservice to American Agriculture and handed the money giving corporations a 2.46 billion dollar present. All of this has come at the cost of the hard working families of America (and Canada) who are the "worker bees" of the free world. Canadian ranchers will and are being used as well. I think it is kind of funny that a kid who inherited an operation in another country like you did has the audacity to tell someone like me who has not been given anything, that the type of presents we are seeing are justified. That is just self serving. Do me a favor would you? Go make up your excuses to give more money to these rich american families but get theat money out of your own pocket, not your fellow cattleman's pocket.

If the Picketts of this world do not win their case, there is no hope for the small farmer/rancher such as yourself unless you marry into the family. Good luck on that one. It might not be worth it.

A lifetime is short. Eternity is forever.

 

[fedup2]

Tam, you write:" went to a site the Union had put up for their member to get information and comment on the strike. Since it's titled Terrible Tyson I thought I would be reading how the union member supported the strike and how they think the Union is doing a good job representing them Was I ever surprized at what I read coming from the members of the UFCW.
How they hate what is happening and how they think the Union is just out for revenge for what happen 20 years ago when IBP owned the plant."

Where on the terrible tyson site did you find the comments you are quoting. I must be blind because I cannot find anything like that. Could you point me toward the source on that site? All I am finding are the terrible conditions workers are forced to work under. Thank you.
http://www.terribletyson.com./articles.html

 

[Tam]

Tam, you write:" went to a site the Union had put up for their member to get information and comment on the strike. Since it's titled Terrible Tyson I thought I would be reading how the union member supported the strike and how they think the Union is doing a good job representing them Was I ever surprized at what I read coming from the members of the UFCW.
How they hate what is happening and how they think the Union is just out for revenge for what happen 20 years ago when IBP owned the plant."

Where on the terrible tyson site did you find the comments you are quoting. I must be blind because I cannot find anything like that. Could you point me toward the source on that site? All I am finding are the terrible conditions workers are forced to work under. Thank you.
http://www.terribletyson.com./articles.html

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050714113633322

Terrible Tyson-Lakeside Workers Vote to Strike Is the headline and it links to the terribletyson.com web site. A web site that according to the union member that wrote the first comment was to inform members of what is going on and how bad it really is at Tyson. I hit the link and all I could see was the words Terrible Tyson and in the middle of the page the words "content coming soon" in big black letters. So I went back and read the 54 comments left by the members, like I said I was surprized at how many felt the Union was in the wrong on a website that was meant to support the union.

 

[Econ101]

Unfortunately these are the same stories I hear at the local plant. Whenever there is an injury, the plant discourages any paperwork. They used to hire illegal aliens and treat them badly. Now it is mostly a legal immigrant work force. Immigrant work forces have little or no political power.

No paper trail? "IF YOU CAN'T PROVE IT, YOU CAN'T HOLD US LIABLE IN THE U.S. COURT SYSTEM" seems to be their judicial philosophy. Evidence tampering holds no claim. "WE HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY CONGRESS AND THE COURTS" seems to be their strength.

 

[fedup2]

Tam, I was mislead by your referencing on two different threads, that this was posted on union website 'Terrible Tyson'. There is no such reference. The site you pointed out in reply to my question posts a link to the Terrible Tyson website. That is the only connection!

Most of the comments you quoted as far as I can see were made by the same anonymous poster! None of these were made on the union website that you implied!
Please correct me if I am wrong & I do hope I'm wrong because If I'm not, this looks like the worst attempt at decieving the readers on this forum that I've ever seen. I hope others follow your links and can find what you posted is anywhere near true and correct me on this. I am trying to as open minded as possible but what I have seen so far has an odor to it.

 

[Jason]

Good grief, Randy, I know Sunterra will work out. They have killed their own cattle for a long time, this expansion is more control of their own. Are they crying about Tyson, or doing something positive? They aren't out selling ideas, they sold a business plan. Maybe BigC should have approached them and asked to join up and make a mega plant.

Mike the jury at Picket got it wrong. They said they were damaged 1.28 billion when Tyson/IBP never even made that much. You guys claim it covered a loss, I say how did they have market power if they were losing that much money? Econ said that was a matter for the courts, but I guess only as long as the courts decide what he likes.

Now Econ is saying Tyson is hiding paper work for bad working conditions. Not in the Lakeside plant. In Canada one of the agencies with the biggest teeth is workers comp. If you have employees you have to deal with them.

Everytime something is mentioned it reverts to it has to be the big guys fault. Maybe the little guys bear some responsibility too.

2 questions, 1 Tyson and Cargill took their profits and expanded capacity, other than your obvious bias against those companies, is expanded capacity good for Canadian producers?

2 If another company was to invest in Canada and set up 2-3000 head per day would your bias show as bad?

 

[rkaiser]

Speaking of political power. Did you read the headlines out there in Saskatchewan about our Premier arbitrating a solution to end the dispute before it became a full blown strike Tam? Seems that one side accepted the aritrated results and the other did not. Can you guess who.

I do not like unions a lot myself, but there is always two sides to every story. If we only listened to Tyson lover reporter Tam we may all be swayed to think Tyson has plans to donate all profits due to BSE back to Rcalf.

 

[Econ101]

Unions should never have any power.

It is bad management that gives it to them.

If you happen to be the bottom of the barrel in management, maybe you deserve a strike.

 

[Mike]

Mike the jury at Picket got it wrong. They said they were damaged 1.28 billion when Tyson/IBP never even made that much. You guys claim it covered a loss,

How would you know they got it wrong? That is only your opinion. An opinion that opposes 12 jurors who actually saw the facts!

No one knows how the jurors came up with the figure of $1.28 billion except them. SH keeps saying that they couldn't explain how they did, but has shown no evidence that they were even asked! I contend that they were not and will stand corrected if they were.

It is my contention that they awarded the plaintiffs more than they asked for because of the seriousness of the offenses against them and that part of the award was punitive.

In fact, it may not have been within Strom's jurisdictional realm to even ask!

 

[rkaiser]

Jason -

Good grief, Randy, I know Sunterra will work out. They have killed their own cattle for a long time, this expansion is more control of their own. Are they crying about Tyson, or doing something positive? They aren't out selling ideas, they sold a business plan. Maybe BigC should have approached them and asked to join up and make a mega plant.

Mike the jury at Picket got it wrong. They said they were damaged 1.28 billion when Tyson/IBP never even made that much. You guys claim it covered a loss, I say how did they have market power if they were losing that much money? Econ said that was a matter for the courts, but I guess only as long as the courts decide what he likes.

Now Econ is saying Tyson is hiding paper work for bad working conditions. Not in the Lakeside plant. In Canada one of the agencies with the biggest teeth is workers comp. If you have employees you have to deal with them.

Everytime something is mentioned it reverts to it has to be the big guys fault. Maybe the little guys bear some responsibility too.

2 questions, 1 Tyson and Cargill took their profits and expanded capacity, other than your obvious bias against those companies, is expanded capacity good for Canadian producers?

2 If another company was to invest in Canada and set up 2-3000 head per day would your bias show as bad?

And every time something else is mentioned, Jason and SH, and Tam defend the Packers?????

Have to answer your question about CRYING first Jason. Of course Sunterra did something, but have you ever asked them why they did it. Have you ever talked to Rick Pascal or Cor Van Raay himself about how they liked giving cattle away. Just because a few vocal members of BIG C were not afraid to stand up and speak in front of the media does not make them whiners. How many bloody dollars of our own money do you think it cost to drive all over this country and tell people like yourself to stop sitting on their hands. How many investors were prompted by straight talk from Grassroots producers spending their own money to tell the other side of Jasons perfect packer story.

Question 1. Yes expanded capacity is good for this country and it is your own bias that will not let you say that it would have been better if it came from sources other than Tyson and Cargill.
Give me a break on the profit going to expansion thing Jason. Tyson's government cheques amounted to twice the 17 million dollar expansion you brag about alone.

Question 2. I have supported any and all packing expansions from the start other than the two that not only helped the capacity issue but helped themselves in a major way to control even more of the industry in Canada. Once again, your bias is showing when clapping your hands the loudest for Tyson and Cargill. Hell you even clapped when Cargill used some of their WAR CHEST money to out bid Swift on the Better Beef deal in Ontario.

 

[rkaiser]

I am so sick of Tam and Jason yapping about BIG C. Find faults and focus on them, and then sit back and be proud of yourselves for all of your efforts.

Did either of you ever go to a BIG C meeting. Likely not. The very first meeting had nothing to do with a BIG C Plant proposal. In fact it took several meeting before it even made the agenda. And when it did, it was always after a lot of very good discussion about what the grassroots producers of this country could do to HELP THEMSELVES. Could Tam or Jason ever see themselves offering anything at a meeting like this. Hell no. Criticism maybe, and SUPPORT FOR THE PACKERS maybe. Would have like to see that at a meeting with 6 to 700 producers angry with the unfairness in the industry due to BSE.

Our first meeting saw plant proposal after plant proposal come forward from each of their best spokesmen and in general BIG C supported each one. People asking for $5000.00 investment while giving BIG C a hundred bucks and thanking us for the chance to reach a big group of people. Of all the people who talked to Cam and the rest of us about plant proposals, not one has ever taking the final position the Tam has taken about BIG C being a threat to their plans. Yet Tam wants the whole world to beleive the opposite.

Sunterra is doing something Jason, and thank God for that. Why don't you go and ask Tony the CEO what he thinks of Randy Kaiser, and BIG C in general. Why don't you have a chat with Rick Pascall, who we stood beside at meetings fighting for similar issues.

Saying that BIG C has done nothing but cry is amazing Jason.

 

[Mike]

Randy, I wouldn't let Tam or Jason worry me too much. What's so funny about Tam's opinions is that she would argue with you if you said the sun came up this morning, if SH agreed. She's been "stroked" a couple of times you know. I don't even read those books called posts anymore.

But is does bother me that some would fight against the attempted betterment of their fellow cattlemen and countrymen just for arguements sake, and seemingly with a clear conscience. :???:

 

[Jason]

Randy I am glad you finally admit the expansions Tyson and Cargill will help.

It would be nice if the extra capacity was from a competitive group I agree, but it is capacity none the less.

My problem with ALL the producer ventures not just BigC (remember the thread I named proposals like BigC where I mentioned others) is the false hope it gives or takes from producers. The money/attention spent in plans that won't fly just hurts producers that have lost equity.

The first thing someone should do is approach a large feeder like Cor and ask if he would commit a set number of cattle to the plant to make sure a set supply is there. Price would have to be based on the market at time of delivery.

The second is approaching a supermarket chain and ask if they would commit to take beef from the plant again based on market prices at time of delivery.

The third would be to contact someone with the expertise to assist in costing the plant, and day-to-day operations. Holding a meeting before those steps are taken is premature. Only after those steps a proper business plan could be drafted, THENand only then would public meetings asking for support be in order.

Getting hundreds of ranchers mad about BSE in a meeting and cussing gov't subsidy failures or unknown packer profits, is not productive. Knowing the truth about packer profits makes a person much more informed about supporting a new venture. With the competition existing and the possibility of pressure exerted by Tyson/Cargill on new ventures, a new venture will need more than passing producer support. Honest numbers and information would 'steel' the resolve of those who sign on for the ride.

 

[Tam]

Tam, I was mislead by your referencing on two different threads, that this was posted on union website 'Terrible Tyson'. There is no such reference. The site you pointed out in reply to my question posts a link to the Terrible Tyson website. That is the only connection!

Most of the comments you quoted as far as I can see were made by the same anonymous poster! None of these were made on the union website that you implied!
Please correct me if I am wrong & I do hope I'm wrong because If I'm not, this looks like the worst attempt at decieving the readers on this forum that I've ever seen. I hope others follow your links and can find what you posted is anywhere near true and correct me on this. I am trying to as open minded as possible but what I have seen so far has an odor to it.

Hey Fedup before we had to register here on Ranchers to post were all the guest posts put on here by the same person? No, many different people posted under the same guest title. So on that web site could those that don't register a name all be considered anonymous posters?
How can you say "as far as I can see were made by the same anonymous poster"!? Of the 54 comments for and against the Union all but 3 were posted by the same anonymous poster were they?
One was a single mom providing a comfortable home for her children another was a man the met his wife of three years because he was working at Tysons plant. Neither of these joined the strike so I doubt the one the made the comments about how the fight was about diginity and he/she was told to threaten his/her coworkers was either of them, Then their was the one that said he was going back to work come hell or high water. Does that sound like they were all wrote by the same anonymous poster? :roll:
What I said was "Since it's titled Terrible Tyson", Was the page not titled Terrible Tyson-Lakeside Workers Vote to Strike Was the first statement not put on by the UNION REP?
Good day all,
Things are heating up at Lakeside in Brooks and it looks like a strike is just around the corner. As usual, we are willing to bargain but this Employer has not been so willing to make the process fruitful. Please check out the following web site and keep updated with this link:www.terribletyson.com
We developed it to keep people informed of the issues and the crisis that this Employer has created. Some of what you will read sounds almost unbelievable but trust me, it's fact and we hope for your support. This is a battle to end slave labour conditions, we are asking you to support these hard working, dedicated Employees. Thanks so much for your time.

In Solidarity,
Christine McMeckan,
UFCW Local 401, Rep

Where did I say the It was the terribletyson.com web site? Excuse me if I mistook this as a site titled Terribe Tyson... and it was put up by the union. :roll: But go re read the 54 posts and see if you really think they were written by the same poster.