Permit Value

[Hopeful Rancher]

How do you value buying a Forest Service Permit?

 

[jodywy]

How do you value buying a Forest Service Permit?

going rate here in western Wyoming and eastern Idaho, is $300/hd for 4 month permit... I got $400, the one guy really wanted it, it was in an association permit so members have chance, permits not in association the Forest Service will put it out on bid. Then are you buying the permit along with the Ranch or cattle.... Now Sheep you can't get $50/AU(5 ewes)

 

[farmguy]

I will never understand. From what I have read the renter/permit holder has such a rough time making ends meet. They cannot afford even a slight increase in a permit fee but yet these permits are so lucrative that people will pay some one for the right to rent land from third party, the American public. I wish I could rent land for the going rate from the 30s or 60s. I wish I could rent pasture for the rate back to the 60s. As I read the law the rate per AUM is to follow the rate for private land. By the way land I have rented I too had to maintain improvements and make improvements. Help me to understand. From my reading the cost of an AUM for grazing permits has remained the same since sometime in the 1960s. I'm thinking an increase in fees could help with our deficit we are all so concerned about.

 

[jodywy]

Predators (Black Bears Grizzly bears, lions and now wolves), hunters (seen shot cattle and arrows in cattle), drop or lay down fences , gates left open, fences cut water developments damaged , required herding . Management plans, stubble height, stream bank stubble height, besides my property tax per AUM is actually less than the permit costs. I don't run as many cows now and sure don't have these headaches as bad as running on public ground.
if you think it such a great deal sell your place and buy this one
http://bateslandco.com/ranches-for-sale/roberts-ranch/

Like Farmers and DCP payments :roll:

 

[leanin' H]

I will never understand. From what I have read the renter/permit holder has such a rough time making ends meet. They cannot afford even a slight increase in a permit fee but yet these permits are so lucrative that people will pay some one for the right to rent land from third party, the American public. I wish I could rent land for the going rate from the 30s or 60s. I wish I could rent pasture for the rate back to the 60s. As I read the law the rate per AUM is to follow the rate for private land. By the way land I have rented I too had to maintain improvements and make improvements. Help me to understand. From my reading the cost of an AUM for grazing permits has remained the same since sometime in the 1960s. I'm thinking an increase in fees could help with our deficit we are all so concerned about.

A grazing RIGHT on public land is absolutely no different than any other right anyone can own. Mining claims are the RIGHT to the minerals or oil under the ground. Even folks who own thier own land may NOT own the mineral rights! Water rights can be owned even if the water springs up on someone elses land. Some folks have no right to a river or creek that flows across their property. That being said, if you own a grazing permit you own the right to the grazing on the land. The fee each ranchers pays per AUM is not a reflection on the worth of the grazing right. Those fees are basically a tax on the ownership of those rights. Remember, the fair market value of the grazing permit is what each rancher paid when they bought the permit. To charge the present value for grazing leases on private ground would be exactly like you paying to rent the home you already own! Public land ranchers have lots of money tied up in rights to graze land that they have very little control over. How many of you that run exclusivly on private land have the public camping anywhere they want, riding ATVs across your ground, hunting on your land, ect? And even if you do, YOU STILL HAVE CONTROL OVER HOW YOU GRAZE AND WHO YOU ALLOW ON YOUR LAND! We have no say about the public and very little say when it comes to leeway from the BLM or Forest Service. The government officials can temporarily or pemanently cut permits due to fire or drought. Please remember, there arent mant free lunches. Public land grazing is not exactly a picnic. It is a neccasity in our state where over 70% of the land is owned by the federal government. My family has ranched since 1860 and held grazing permits since the Taylor grazing act of the 1930's. WE SURE AS HELL DONT PAY THE "GOING RATE FROM THE 60'S". PM me if you'd like more info.

 

[Soapweed]

I will never understand. From what I have read the renter/permit holder has such a rough time making ends meet. They cannot afford even a slight increase in a permit fee but yet these permits are so lucrative that people will pay some one for the right to rent land from third party, the American public. I wish I could rent land for the going rate from the 30s or 60s. I wish I could rent pasture for the rate back to the 60s. As I read the law the rate per AUM is to follow the rate for private land. By the way land I have rented I too had to maintain improvements and make improvements. Help me to understand. From my reading the cost of an AUM for grazing permits has remained the same since sometime in the 1960s. I'm thinking an increase in fees could help with our deficit we are all so concerned about.

A grazing RIGHT on public land is absolutely no different than any other right anyone can own. Mining claims are the RIGHT to the minerals or oil under the ground. Even folks who own thier own land may NOT own the mineral rights! Water rights can be owned even if the water springs up on someone elses land. Some folks have no right to a river or creek that flows across their property. That being said, if you own a grazing permit you own the right to the grazing on the land. The fee each ranchers pays per AUM is not a reflection on the worth of the grazing right. Those fees are basically a tax on the ownership of those rights. Remember, the fair market value of the grazing permit is what each rancher paid when they bought the permit. To charge the present value for grazing leases on private ground would be exactly like you paying to rent the home you already own! Public land ranchers have lots of money tied up in rights to graze land that they have very little control over. How many of you that run exclusivly on private land have the public camping anywhere they want, riding ATVs across your ground, hunting on your land, ect? And even if you do, YOU STILL HAVE CONTROL OVER HOW YOU GRAZE AND WHO YOU ALLOW ON YOUR LAND! We have no say about the public and very little say when it comes to leeway from the BLM or Forest Service. The government officials can temporarily or pemanently cut permits due to fire or drought. Please remember, there arent mant free lunches. Public land grazing is not exactly a picnic. It is a neccasity in our state where over 70% of the land is owned by the federal government. My family has ranched since 1860 and held grazing permits since the Taylor grazing act of the 1930's. WE SURE AS HELL DONT PAY THE "GOING RATE FROM THE 60'S". PM me if you'd like more info.

That is a very good explanation, Leanin' H. You told it like it is.

 

[cowboykell]

You never see any of that $1.35 AUM land go ungrazed in the Dakotas.

 

[eatbeef]

leanin' H wrote:
farmguy wrote:
I will never understand. From what I have read the renter/permit holder has such a rough time making ends meet. They cannot afford even a slight increase in a permit fee but yet these permits are so lucrative that people will pay some one for the right to rent land from third party, the American public. I wish I could rent land for the going rate from the 30s or 60s. I wish I could rent pasture for the rate back to the 60s. As I read the law the rate per AUM is to follow the rate for private land. By the way land I have rented I too had to maintain improvements and make improvements. Help me to understand. From my reading the cost of an AUM for grazing permits has remained the same since sometime in the 1960s. I'm thinking an increase in fees could help with our deficit we are all so concerned about.


A grazing RIGHT on public land is absolutely no different than any other right anyone can own. Mining claims are the RIGHT to the minerals or oil under the ground. Even folks who own thier own land may NOT own the mineral rights! Water rights can be owned even if the water springs up on someone elses land. Some folks have no right to a river or creek that flows across their property. That being said, if you own a grazing permit you own the right to the grazing on the land. The fee each ranchers pays per AUM is not a reflection on the worth of the grazing right. Those fees are basically a tax on the ownership of those rights. Remember, the fair market value of the grazing permit is what each rancher paid when they bought the permit. To charge the present value for grazing leases on private ground would be exactly like you paying to rent the home you already own! Public land ranchers have lots of money tied up in rights to graze land that they have very little control over. How many of you that run exclusivly on private land have the public camping anywhere they want, riding ATVs across your ground, hunting on your land, ect? And even if you do, YOU STILL HAVE CONTROL OVER HOW YOU GRAZE AND WHO YOU ALLOW ON YOUR LAND! We have no say about the public and very little say when it comes to leeway from the BLM or Forest Service. The government officials can temporarily or pemanently cut permits due to fire or drought. Please remember, there arent mant free lunches. Public land grazing is not exactly a picnic. It is a neccasity in our state where over 70% of the land is owned by the federal government. My family has ranched since 1860 and held grazing permits since the Taylor grazing act of the 1930's. WE SURE AS HELL DONT PAY THE "GOING RATE FROM THE 60'S". PM me if you'd like more info.


That is a very good explanation, Leanin' H. You told it like it is.

Sounds like renting grass from a landlord and they are in control of everything. I agree it cost up front for the permit, but the yearly rate is still very low compared to private land that is rented out. I rent almost all my grass and over half of my landlords tell me when to go in and out and how many head.

I understand the grass always looks greener on the other side but, when it comes to public lands the buying and selling of permits should have to be made public.

 

[redrobin]

The united states should own very, very little land. They should sell 99% of what they own.

 

[farmguy]

I agree, every 10 years or whatever have a public auction. Include the right to erect semi permanent structures on a designated site if needed. I find as an American and as a person I have few rights. But especially in this country I have many privileges. Farmguy

 

[leanin' H]

leanin' H wrote:
farmguy wrote:
I will never understand. From what I have read the renter/permit holder has such a rough time making ends meet. They cannot afford even a slight increase in a permit fee but yet these permits are so lucrative that people will pay some one for the right to rent land from third party, the American public. I wish I could rent land for the going rate from the 30s or 60s. I wish I could rent pasture for the rate back to the 60s. As I read the law the rate per AUM is to follow the rate for private land. By the way land I have rented I too had to maintain improvements and make improvements. Help me to understand. From my reading the cost of an AUM for grazing permits has remained the same since sometime in the 1960s. I'm thinking an increase in fees could help with our deficit we are all so concerned about.


A grazing RIGHT on public land is absolutely no different than any other right anyone can own. Mining claims are the RIGHT to the minerals or oil under the ground. Even folks who own thier own land may NOT own the mineral rights! Water rights can be owned even if the water springs up on someone elses land. Some folks have no right to a river or creek that flows across their property. That being said, if you own a grazing permit you own the right to the grazing on the land. The fee each ranchers pays per AUM is not a reflection on the worth of the grazing right. Those fees are basically a tax on the ownership of those rights. Remember, the fair market value of the grazing permit is what each rancher paid when they bought the permit. To charge the present value for grazing leases on private ground would be exactly like you paying to rent the home you already own! Public land ranchers have lots of money tied up in rights to graze land that they have very little control over. How many of you that run exclusivly on private land have the public camping anywhere they want, riding ATVs across your ground, hunting on your land, ect? And even if you do, YOU STILL HAVE CONTROL OVER HOW YOU GRAZE AND WHO YOU ALLOW ON YOUR LAND! We have no say about the public and very little say when it comes to leeway from the BLM or Forest Service. The government officials can temporarily or pemanently cut permits due to fire or drought. Please remember, there arent mant free lunches. Public land grazing is not exactly a picnic. It is a neccasity in our state where over 70% of the land is owned by the federal government. My family has ranched since 1860 and held grazing permits since the Taylor grazing act of the 1930's. WE SURE AS HELL DONT PAY THE "GOING RATE FROM THE 60'S". PM me if you'd like more info.


That is a very good explanation, Leanin' H. You told it like it is.

Sounds like renting grass from a landlord and they are in control of everything. I agree it cost up front for the permit, but the yearly rate is still very low compared to private land that is rented out. I rent almost all my grass and over half of my landlords tell me when to go in and out and how many head.

I understand the grass always looks greener on the other side but, when it comes to public lands the buying and selling of permits should have to be made public.

They WERE made public! And those of us who own them, OWN THEM! Why dont you volunteer to sell off some of your land so i can branch out in another state? It would only be fair! :wink:

Renting private land and OWNING a permit on government land are 2 completely different things folks. Why do so many of you compare the two and feel it's unfair what i pay in AUM fees? We own the right to graze the land in our allotments. We also purchased lots of government bueracrats and regulations from folks who have never owned a cow. I completely understand that it costs you $43 per AUM to run where you do. That is the fair market value for a LEASE! We OWN our grazing rights and pay FEES (Taxes) on them broken down into AUMs but we arent paying $1.85 to lease the grass like you do. We pay an AUM fee just like you pay property taxes on your home and land. If you live on a half a million dollar piece of ground with a $200000 home, you pay $7500 in taxes each year. You dont pay the full worth of the land and house each year do ya? Neither do i.

Before the 1930's everything out west was free land. A guy would homestead 640 acres on a spring or along a creek. Water was and still is the key out here. Without the water, cattle had no place. Guess who owns the majority of the water rights out here? Private ranchers and landowners. Guess who owns the water rights on the federal land where we run cattle? WE DO! How many cows could you run here without the ability to give them a drink? :wink:

Before the Taylor grazing act you ran as many cows as you could and that was that. Overgrazing did happen just like the dust bowl happened back in the midwest when bad farming practices and drought took its toll. The government stepped in with the grazing act, but they understood who owned the water had the aces on the grazing. They gave permits for the grazing ALREADY being used by ranches. The system has worked fairly well since then. Since 1860, my family has owned our land and run cows here. We should just get thrown out every ten years so the "public" can give it a try? Again, a private lease is exactly that! A grazing right and permit is a completely different animal. Some of ya just dont get that i guess. :?

 

[jodywy]

leanin' H wrote:
farmguy wrote:
I will never understand. From what I have read the renter/permit holder has such a rough time making ends meet. They cannot afford even a slight increase in a permit fee but yet these permits are so lucrative that people will pay some one for the right to rent land from third party, the American public. I wish I could rent land for the going rate from the 30s or 60s. I wish I could rent pasture for the rate back to the 60s. As I read the law the rate per AUM is to follow the rate for private land. By the way land I have rented I too had to maintain improvements and make improvements. Help me to understand. From my reading the cost of an AUM for grazing permits has remained the same since sometime in the 1960s. I'm thinking an increase in fees could help with our deficit we are all so concerned about.


A grazing RIGHT on public land is absolutely no different than any other right anyone can own. Mining claims are the RIGHT to the minerals or oil under the ground. Even folks who own thier own land may NOT own the mineral rights! Water rights can be owned even if the water springs up on someone elses land. Some folks have no right to a river or creek that flows across their property. That being said, if you own a grazing permit you own the right to the grazing on the land. The fee each ranchers pays per AUM is not a reflection on the worth of the grazing right. Those fees are basically a tax on the ownership of those rights. Remember, the fair market value of the grazing permit is what each rancher paid when they bought the permit. To charge the present value for grazing leases on private ground would be exactly like you paying to rent the home you already own! Public land ranchers have lots of money tied up in rights to graze land that they have very little control over. How many of you that run exclusivly on private land have the public camping anywhere they want, riding ATVs across your ground, hunting on your land, ect? And even if you do, YOU STILL HAVE CONTROL OVER HOW YOU GRAZE AND WHO YOU ALLOW ON YOUR LAND! We have no say about the public and very little say when it comes to leeway from the BLM or Forest Service. The government officials can temporarily or pemanently cut permits due to fire or drought. Please remember, there arent mant free lunches. Public land grazing is not exactly a picnic. It is a neccasity in our state where over 70% of the land is owned by the federal government. My family has ranched since 1860 and held grazing permits since the Taylor grazing act of the 1930's. WE SURE AS HELL DONT PAY THE "GOING RATE FROM THE 60'S". PM me if you'd like more info.


That is a very good explanation, Leanin' H. You told it like it is.

Sounds like renting grass from a landlord and they are in control of everything. I agree it cost up front for the permit, but the yearly rate is still very low compared to private land that is rented out. I rent almost all my grass and over half of my landlords tell me when to go in and out and how many head.

I understand the grass always looks greener on the other side but, when it comes to public lands the buying and selling of permits should have to be made public.

IF you buy the Cow (or sheep) or the base property you can buy the permit.Now if someone wants to sell a permit with out cows or a base property the Forest Service well advertize there is an lease for sale.
Now there are some association permits, if somebody don't have the numbers to fill thier allotment other in the permit can fill the void, and usually anybody selling , members will have first chance. As most live right next to the allotment in use BUT! they still have to buy the cows that are on it or Corrals with water(base property ) from the seller.

 

[rem_243]

You never see any of that $1.35 AUM land go ungrazed in the Dakotas.

That is not a true statement. There are some districts that rest almost 20% of their allotments every year, and several other districts that rest smaller percentages.

 

[redrobin]

Are allotments deeded like mineral rights?

 

[Triangle Bar]

Are allotments deeded like mineral rights?

I'm not sure if there is an actual deed at the county court house, but the BLM and USFS keep records of the ownership. In Colorado, I pay a 'possessory property tax' to the county every year. It's based on the permittees ownership.

Mineral and water rights are described on property deeds. Remember that we permittees do not own the physical property, we own the grazing use or the preference for that use, depending on how you want to state it. The grazing preference is tied to the base property. Base property has to be able to sustain the cattle for the time the cattle are not on the permit.

edit: I should have mentioned that the base property is private property owned by the permittee.

 

[Hopeful Rancher]

Thanks for all of the great input.

 

[gcreekrch]

I also believe that private fenced grass will produce more ADG than rangeland.

I am referring to well managed grass in both cases. Cattle simply won't travel as far on fenced pasture.

 

[mrj]

Are those the same type leases some of the Activist/Terrorist groups are buying (or attempting to buy) so no ranchers can use them?

mrj

 

[Nicky]

Are those the same type leases some of the Activist/Terrorist groups are buying (or attempting to buy) so no ranchers can use them?

mrj

Yes

 

[DB Cooper]

Renting private land and OWNING a permit on government land are 2 completely different things folks. Why do so many of you compare the two and feel it's unfair what I pay in AUM fees? We own the right to graze the land in our allotments. We also purchased lots of government bureaucrats and regulations from folks who have never owned a cow. I completely understand that it costs you $43 per AUM to run where you do. That is the fair market value for a LEASE! We OWN our grazing rights and pay FEES (Taxes) on them broken down into AUMs but we aren't paying $1.85 to lease the grass like you do. We pay an AUM fee just like you pay property taxes on your home and land. If you live on a half a million dollar piece of ground with a $200000 home, you pay $7500 in taxes each year. You don't pay the full worth of the land and house each year do ya? Neither do I.

Very well said.