canadian angus
Well-known member
That is what Hans Ulrich found out in the 70's, the hard way!
CA
CA
Polled Hereford bull calves
- Thread starter CosgrayHerefords
- Start date
gcreekrch
Well-known member
My information is gained by going to our local sale or watching DVauction and CattleUSA.
Straight PH calves will consistantly sell less, sometimes up to 20 cents under other cattle of similar quality.
The first reason people give when asked why they use PH bulls is that they don't have to dehorn. They usually do not have any other explanation.
An old cow buyer who bought for Canada Packers and a number of large feedlots from the 1950's to the mid 90's when he retired told me once when I was a kid, "If you want to be a millionaire, build a mineral mix that will sterilize PH bulls, the feedlots will pay you extremely well if you can do it.
The former cow boss at Douglas Lake, Canada's largest ranch, who probably use more HH than any other in Canada once stated at a Hereford Breeders convention that "If they have a little pointy head they have a pointy aZZ behind it.
These two fellows were very knowledgable and well respected cattlemen who handled HUGE numbers of cattle. If PH cattle actually worked they both would have used them.
The PH breed is being held popular by rich folks that play in the show ring and trade high priced non funtional cattle with their co-horts
My opinion.
Straight PH calves will consistantly sell less, sometimes up to 20 cents under other cattle of similar quality.
The first reason people give when asked why they use PH bulls is that they don't have to dehorn. They usually do not have any other explanation.
An old cow buyer who bought for Canada Packers and a number of large feedlots from the 1950's to the mid 90's when he retired told me once when I was a kid, "If you want to be a millionaire, build a mineral mix that will sterilize PH bulls, the feedlots will pay you extremely well if you can do it.
The former cow boss at Douglas Lake, Canada's largest ranch, who probably use more HH than any other in Canada once stated at a Hereford Breeders convention that "If they have a little pointy head they have a pointy aZZ behind it.
These two fellows were very knowledgable and well respected cattlemen who handled HUGE numbers of cattle. If PH cattle actually worked they both would have used them.
The PH breed is being held popular by rich folks that play in the show ring and trade high priced non funtional cattle with their co-horts
My opinion.
Rambo
Well-known member
CosgrayHerefords: for what your stated purpose is, the calves look good. The new bull certainly has the "look" and should help your junior market. Good luck.
For those of you beating up on cosgray and his? cattle. Most of you are so biased against any "show" bull that we could take your favorite bull of all time, put him on feed, pull his hair up and have him win Denver and you would call him a POS. In the meantime you want to use bulls from the 60's and 70's calling them "better" than todays cattle while forgetting the only reason those bulls got to be known in the first place is because they won a class or show someplace. There are some really good livestock being shown around the country. Those of you that automatically reject any show animal from your breeding program are doing yourselves a disservice.
For those of you beating up on cosgray and his? cattle. Most of you are so biased against any "show" bull that we could take your favorite bull of all time, put him on feed, pull his hair up and have him win Denver and you would call him a POS. In the meantime you want to use bulls from the 60's and 70's calling them "better" than todays cattle while forgetting the only reason those bulls got to be known in the first place is because they won a class or show someplace. There are some really good livestock being shown around the country. Those of you that automatically reject any show animal from your breeding program are doing yourselves a disservice.
WyomingRancher
Well-known member
gcreekrch said:
Wait, wait... you forgot my all-time favorite problem, PROLAPSES
, followed by lameness.I must say though, the other permittee on the forest has crossed her Balancer cows on horned Herefords, and they really produced some very productive calves. She sold to the same buyer, and our calves are being fed together. It will be fun to see how those calves perform
.gcreekrch
Well-known member
Careful now WR, you will be blamed for 'beating up' someone who asked for honest opinions and they weren't quite what they want to hear.
Apparently, I'm as narrow minded as they are. I absolutly hate appleheads.
Apparently, I'm as narrow minded as they are. I absolutly hate appleheads.
Hereford76
Well-known member
canadian angus said:
Cosgrayhereford - this statement is exactly my point. People generalize off of their personal experiences. Someone mentioned the cow boss for Douglas lake and an experienced packer/feeder. Those guys and our industry hasn't developed their opinions overnight its from experience or learning the hard way as someone put it and if their opinions don't have any weight then none do. I've watched the angus breed dominate for a long time and the generation of commercial angus ranchers taking over at home have no direct experience with herefords but are starting to bring herefords back into their crossbreeding program and I don't want to give them that bad experience. I see them using polled herefords for two reasons - one polled herefords are more similair in type to what they already have and two they won't have to dehorn. For the Hereford breeds sake - I hope you have done your homework and not just chased the latest fads.
WyomingRancher
Well-known member
gcreekrch said:
Now, now, I am not beating anyone up... I'm merely sharing my limited experience with the breed. It was a short-lived experiment since I didn't enjoy the cattle as I originally hoped I would
. Perhaps if I would've stuck with herefords, I would've worked through these minor management issues by now (or would've worn out another squeeze chute, and had to hire my vet on retainer). . Actually though, I don't recall a hereford ever smearing their calves into the ground after calving like I have with some of my treasured angus cattle
. Also, I never had to call the butcher to come shoot a hereford bull which got nasty with me... like I've had to with some of my treasured black bulls. And as I previously mentioned, my friend used hereford bulls and got super-nice calves 
.There are great hereford cattle out there, we've all seen them on this site. They definitely survive in environments my cows probably wouldn't so...shall we pick on Salers next?... how about Limousines??? :lol: We can even pick on my cattle... trust me, they've got some holes in them as well :wink: .
Hey, the log chain is only out four links, the wind gusts must be down to 50mph, I better go feed while I've got some visability :lol: .
Hereford76
Well-known member
Rambo said:
Here is another statement that helps prove my point. The junior market or show market isn't proof of an animals merits and now we have this generation of breeders that believes it is and when commercial cowman gets burned again those purebred breeders will be long gone without a care in the world - fly by night.
Rambo
Well-known member
Hereford76 said:
What's to say some of the junior and show market cattle aren't the best cattle for the industry? There is no proof either way on the current cattle of any management system. The proof is in the daughters/granddaughters. I think it's silly to disreguard a bull just because he has been shown. Just as I think it's silly that some only breed by show records.
CosgrayHerefords
Member
We have been breeding and raising Polled Herefords for over 50 years so I don't think that we are chasing a fad as you claim. Like I've said in previous posts, that may have been the case 10 years ago about Polled Herefords but they have changed drastically. I had many horned hereford breeders tell me you knock off the horns you knock off the butts. I have also witnessed those same guys see some of the newer polled herefords and just been amazed. A guy that lives down the road from us has been raising exclusively Horned Hereford cattle with his family for over 75 years. Last year he saw a Polled Hereford heifer at a sale he went to with us and bought her for 12,000 claiming that she was the second best heifer that he had ever seen and he had been everywhere. He now is 50% Polled Hereford and 50% Horned Hereford in his breeding stock. The breed has made improvements through strict culling, selecting the right sires and cow families that will add muscle throughout the body, great feet and udders. You're seeing more and more Polled Hereford bulls that are even more square hipped and thick butted than their horned hereford counterparts.
When looking for a breeding cow what are you looking for?
When looking for a bull what are you looking for?
When looking for a breeding cow what are you looking for?
When looking for a bull what are you looking for?
PureCountry
Well-known member
I want a breeding cow to do this every year until she's 20.
She weighs 750lbs, and the calf weighs 550lbs. They don't all have to be this small, but I sure like the percentage of body weight weaned.
A breeding bull could look like this and satisfy me:
Muscle, masculinity, exceptional feet, nuts, eyes, and never a pound of grain in him.
Same for this guy:
And:
Note the crest, the masculinity. It tells you that his daughters will be fertile for many years. Like Canadian Angus making the comment about the forearm muscle - these little details are long-forgotten by many cattlemen, and they bred away from these things, essentially breeding away from functional cattle. Feed covers flaws, bottom line. These same cattlemen that are now "going back" to different types of cattle, is because they have realized the hard way, through first-hand experience that cattle without these traits are not as profitable in a sustainable manner. Yes they MAY BE PROFITABLE, because if you have people willing to buy something, you can potentially make a profit. But truly functional cattle have traits about them that make them very easy to identify. I'm not going to try and tell you that I can pick a perfect cow by looking at the whorl in her brow, or the length of her tail, but I can tell many things by identifying certain characteristics.
Long story short, Cosgray, you seem to have a real passion for your animals and I commend you for it. In my opinion, you would do yourself a favor, and your customers a greater service, by raising cattle that can do all the things you say you want - without any grain, show rations, etc. Make the cows and bulls achieve the goals you set for them, without the supplementals, and you're really onto something. JMO.
Best of luck,
PC.
She weighs 750lbs, and the calf weighs 550lbs. They don't all have to be this small, but I sure like the percentage of body weight weaned.
A breeding bull could look like this and satisfy me:
Muscle, masculinity, exceptional feet, nuts, eyes, and never a pound of grain in him.
Same for this guy:
And:
Note the crest, the masculinity. It tells you that his daughters will be fertile for many years. Like Canadian Angus making the comment about the forearm muscle - these little details are long-forgotten by many cattlemen, and they bred away from these things, essentially breeding away from functional cattle. Feed covers flaws, bottom line. These same cattlemen that are now "going back" to different types of cattle, is because they have realized the hard way, through first-hand experience that cattle without these traits are not as profitable in a sustainable manner. Yes they MAY BE PROFITABLE, because if you have people willing to buy something, you can potentially make a profit. But truly functional cattle have traits about them that make them very easy to identify. I'm not going to try and tell you that I can pick a perfect cow by looking at the whorl in her brow, or the length of her tail, but I can tell many things by identifying certain characteristics.
Long story short, Cosgray, you seem to have a real passion for your animals and I commend you for it. In my opinion, you would do yourself a favor, and your customers a greater service, by raising cattle that can do all the things you say you want - without any grain, show rations, etc. Make the cows and bulls achieve the goals you set for them, without the supplementals, and you're really onto something. JMO.
Best of luck,
PC.
Big Muddy rancher
Well-known member
Cosgray you can and are welcome to ask for advice and opinion here at ranchers. You just have to be prepared for what the replies are. It does no good to stroke someones ego as they learn nothing.
You are welcome to raise any type of cattle you wish but don't expect everyone to like them. Lots of posters on here have raised more cattle for longer and in much harsher environment then Indiana and have raised a family and purchased the ranch doing it. That doesn't mean that anyone one has perfect cattle but have found what works for their management style. Many of us are still evolving our herds trying to reach that spot.
I hope these replies make you THINK and not get mad.
You are welcome to raise any type of cattle you wish but don't expect everyone to like them. Lots of posters on here have raised more cattle for longer and in much harsher environment then Indiana and have raised a family and purchased the ranch doing it. That doesn't mean that anyone one has perfect cattle but have found what works for their management style. Many of us are still evolving our herds trying to reach that spot.
I hope these replies make you THINK and not get mad.
PureCountry
Well-known member
Big Muddy rancher said:Cosgray you can and are welcome to ask for advice and opinion here at ranchers. You just have to be prepared for what the replies are. It does no good to stroke someones ego as they learn nothing.
You are welcome to raise any type of cattle you wish but don't expect everyone to like them. Lots of posters on here have raised more cattle for longer and in much harsher environment then Indiana and have raised a family and purchased the ranch doing it. That doesn't mean that anyone one has perfect cattle but have found what works for their management style. Many of us are still evolving our herds trying to reach that spot.
I hope these replies make you THINK and not get mad.
:agree: :clap:
MN Farm Girl
Well-known member
Now to comment on Pure Country's photos. The black bull is what your COMMERCIAL bull should look like. We bought a bull back in March and when we brought him home in June he was steer material. Now after only breeding 6 out of 12 cows and only 2 out of 6 heifers, he lives happily in the barn with no nuts. Another thing when you buy bulls with the "show look" or "pretty" that does not make you any money and we are in the beef industry and not dairy. I now you are thinking you have a good thing Cosgray, but it still appears to me that you bought the bull based on two things. A.) pedigree B.) the reputation of the breeder. After you get a calf out of him and see what the calves look like will tell you what he produces.
CosgrayHerefords
Member
It probably does sound like I am getting mad but I assure you that I am not. I appreciate the advice and the criticism. I was simply trying to point out what I like as well. I was however getting annoyed for someone thinking that I don't know the difference between a rupture and a hernia and thinking that it wa the result of bad genetics.
CosgrayHerefords
Member
MN- We bought the bull for many reason. Reason number 1 we needed a bull to run with our heifers. We wanted a bull with good calving ease with high growth potential. Reason 2- We wanted a bull with a strong pedigree backed with PROVEN cow producers and profit producers. After all a bull is proven from the females he produces. Reason 3- We have boughten cattle from them since the early 90's and never had a complaint about any of them. We have purchased 7 bulls from them and they have accomplished exactly what we thought. We have purchased over 10 females from them and they have blew us away with their production ability and longevity. Reason 4- His phenotype was what we desired. We want a bull with natural thickness from his shoulders to his pins. We wanted extra bone, with depth and spring of rib. We wanted a wide based easy fleshing bull with excellent feet. I feel from seeing him in person twice both groomed and ungroomed that he fit most if not all of the categories. Reason 5- We wanted a Remitall Online 122L. It was an added bonus that this bull came from one of their donor dams and was a natural calf. They are currently using four full brothers on their replacement heifers and two maternal brothers through AI. They have four full sisters to this bull that they are currently putting in their donor program. So I'd say all things considered he was what we were looking for.
PureCountry
Well-known member
How long ago did you buy him Cosgray? All things considered, it sounds like Christmas came early this year. :wink:
Good luck with him.
Good luck with him.
High Plains
Well-known member
Cosgray, it looks like you've been getting it from all angles! Ah well, it'll wear off.
From the photo, your purchased bull looks to be pretty good. If he's as thick as you say he is, then I'd say what I can see in the photo is impressive. Herefords are not my choice, but as an individual within his breed, it appears that he's quite a specimen. There again, I don't know what he'll look like after he's another year older and comes in from the breeding pasture, but nobody else here does either! Just because he doesn't have a great big cresty neck does not lead me to believe that he won't pass on fertility to his daughters. If he has a good, sizeable pair of nuts then the science says that he'll pass on fertility. I haven't seen the information that shows a correlation between cresty necks and fertility. I'd be interested to know the facts on that one.
Hope the bull delivers on the promises that you've read into his background. Thanks for sharing the pics.
HP
From the photo, your purchased bull looks to be pretty good. If he's as thick as you say he is, then I'd say what I can see in the photo is impressive. Herefords are not my choice, but as an individual within his breed, it appears that he's quite a specimen. There again, I don't know what he'll look like after he's another year older and comes in from the breeding pasture, but nobody else here does either! Just because he doesn't have a great big cresty neck does not lead me to believe that he won't pass on fertility to his daughters. If he has a good, sizeable pair of nuts then the science says that he'll pass on fertility. I haven't seen the information that shows a correlation between cresty necks and fertility. I'd be interested to know the facts on that one.
Hope the bull delivers on the promises that you've read into his background. Thanks for sharing the pics.
HP
PureCountry
Well-known member
Sorry HP, I don't have numbers, stats or data to substantiate my theory of masculinity equating into fertile females. It's just based on personal experience, handed down from a few generations of family and neighbouring ranchers. As it pertains to my margins, that's exactly the kind of data I need.
Guess that's as good as I can explain it. Take care.
Guess that's as good as I can explain it. Take care.
Big Muddy rancher
Well-known member
PureCountry said:
I had a booklet from the N BAR ranch at Grass range. Very interesting on all the traits and what to look for in a bull.