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Premesis ID voluntary?

LOL You translate PAYING BOUNTIES TO SCHOOL KIDS from:
Examples include the National FFA Organization, as well as the American Angus Association which recently received $580,000 from the federal government to promote NAIS among its membership
So next you will be trying to tell us that all the breed associations, FFA and 4-H are corrupt too and part of your big NAIS conspiracy ????????????????????????????
 
Longcut said:
LOL You translate PAYING BOUNTIES TO SCHOOL KIDS from:
Examples include the National FFA Organization, as well as the American Angus Association which recently received $580,000 from the federal government to promote NAIS among its membership
So next you will be trying to tell us that all the breed associations, FFA and 4-H are corrupt too and part of your big NAIS conspiracy ????????????????????????????

I was trying to find something in the net that you would accept - that is all I could find. I got my information first hand from individuals who said they had the FFA kids on their door step trying to sign them up. One guy said his grandkids explained to them that their chapter got a "reward" for everybody they signed up. You can belive me or not, I don't care.

Here's what's going on. The USDA says the program is voluntary. BUT, They use the states to do their dirty work. They use the back door by offering funds to the states to get people signed up - and the higher rate of compliance, the more money they get. Ain't that nice? They go to the school kids and tell them what a wonderful program it is and then offer bounties to get people to sign up - so they can get more money from this "voluntary program".

The fair boards are used as a tool to get people signed up - "You sign up or you don't show." The reasoning is that animals come from all over and they need a way to track in the case of disease. The truth is that every show has an entry form where all the needed information exists. It's not about tracability, it's about federal funds.

What this is akin to is the boss ordering a hit on somebody and them claiming innocence as "I didn't pull the trigger". I don't know about you, but I don't like my government operating this way. I think a government should be honest and accountable, not saying one thing and then offering money for the opposite.
 
Sandhusker said:
Here's what's going on. The USDA says the program is voluntary. BUT, They use the states to do their dirty work.

In my business (real estate appraising) we encountered the same thing. In 1992 the Appraisal Foundation established some rules and some procedures for voluntary state participation. Today, those states not in compliance with the standards cannot get funding through any federally related transaction (banks, Fannie Mae, Ginny Mae, Freddie Mac, FHA, VA, etc). Voluntary? No problem....but if you don't volunteer we will cut you off.

So yeah, the fed has established rules for voluntary registration. The states are supposed to decide for themselves how to handle it, and establish those rules the state thinks it should. Problem is, if a state isn't in voluntary compliance, it will be difficult for beef from those states to get to market, and lack of identification and registration will result in an inability to cross state lines and a lack of market for the beef.
 
Isn't that a STATE reg., rather than a NATIONAL requirement as would be the caise with NAIS, and which MAY eventually become law?

We well may wish it was national law WHEN a fast moving animal disease invades the USA?

The least we need is better coordination between states in cases when fast and accurate tracing of a sick animal is necessary.

For the record, I do not favor M-ID for anything but disease control.

ID for age verification and other MARKETING reasons SHOULD be market driven, with costs paid by those who benefit, as well as the BENEFITS going only to those who add that extra value to their cattle, IMO.

mrj
 
MRJ, "Isn't that a STATE reg., rather than a NATIONAL requirement as would be the caise with NAIS, and which MAY eventually become law?"

You totally missed what is going on, MRJ. The USDA is trying to fool people into thinking it is the states, not the USDA, that is pushing M-ID. It worked with you.
 
DJ USDA To Release Harmonized Animal Tracking Business Plan



1:23 PM, August 31, 2007

By Lester Aldrich

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

Agriculture Online



KANSAS CITY (Dow Jones)--The U.S. Department of Agriculture is nearly ready

to release a National Animal Identification System "business plan" that details

ways to make the many current programs work in harmony, USDA animal health

officials said at the National Institute for Animal Agriculture's ID-INFO EXPO

in Kansas City.



Neil Hammerschmidt, NAIS Coordinator for the USDA's Animal and Plant Health

Inspection Service's Veterinary Services, said the business plan follows

previous guidelines. One of those previous booklets was a user's guide, and one

listed the program's standards.



The new guide is meant to help the various programs currently in use set up

protocols that will enable an easy transfer of information.



That easy movement of information from one system to the next is important if

the U.S. is to ever achieve its ultimate goal of a 48-hour trace of individual

animals, they said.



USDA Undersecretary for Marketing and Regulatory Programs Bruce Knight said

at the meeting Thursday that the 48-hour goal was selected because officials

needed it to get in front of fast-moving diseases like foot-and-mouth disease.

However, the current system is so slow that tracing cases of bovine

tuberculosis "today takes 125 days - a long way from 48 hours."



Still, the U.S. animal identification system has made a lot of progress since

September 2004 when states initiated their first premises registration efforts,

Hammerschmidt said. To date, a few more than 414,000 premises have been

registered, an estimated 28.8% of the 1.4 million total.



Speakers said the business plan encourages prioritizing resources into

efforts to trace commercial food animals like cattle, poultry, swine, sheep or

goats. Competition horses also were lifted to a high priority because of their

frequent movements.



The USDA plans to work toward applying NAIS data standards to existing

disease programs to accomplish traceback goals.
Existing programs can enhance

animal disease tracing and emergency response capabilities, the speakers said.



Because the U.S. is developing a tracing system that is based largely in the

private sector and incorporates a variety of systems, collaboration and

partnerships between producer organizations and other members can accelerate

the process, the speakers said. They urged the various groups to work together

using the USDA's business plan when it comes out in a few days to hasten the

process of getting to that 48-hour traceback goal.





-By Lester Aldrich, Dow Jones Newswires



agriculture.com
 
Bruce Knight said

at the meeting Thursday that the 48-hour goal was selected because officials

needed it to get in front of fast-moving diseases like foot-and-mouth disease.

However, the current system is so slow that tracing cases of bovine

tuberculosis "today takes 125 days - a long way from 48 hours."

Ha,Ha Ha LOL,Ha HA ,Ha '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''Ha,Ha Ha LOL,Ha HA ,Ha

Have Heard that ScoringAg chief was there and Knight wouldn't come over to the ID ology booth. Didn't want to see technology that can do a traceback within 3 SECONDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
No, Sandhusker, I did NOT miss what is going on!

You are so conspiracy driven that you do not understand some states DO require this, and it is not yet a federal law.

USDA is trying to fool people by telling us that we will need fast ID if something such as Foot and Mouth disease is intentionally or accidentally spread in cattle herds in the USA????

Come on out of that 'government is out to get us' mentality and get real!

Where have 'they' stated that the states are pushing M-ID?

Of course, it is highly unlikely COOL can provide the safety factor your buddies tell consumers it will do, unless we have M-ID.

I still believe M-ID and COOL should be voluntary, market driven tools for the cattle producers willing to do the work and get the rewards for doing it.

mrj
 
Sandhusker said:
MRJ, "No, Sandhusker, I did NOT miss what is going on! "

Yeah, you did. It's no conspiracy, just dirty government.

Yep-- same way the government shoved a 55 mph speed limit down Montana's throat after we told them where to stick it....Threatened to cut off federal highway funds and a bunch of other things until we passed one-- they were really P.O.ed when Jimmy Carter said the nation had to do it- and the legislature passed a "not conserving gas by driving over 55mph" law that didn't go on your record- and put a $5 maximum fine on it...

No wonder GW and Jimmy are running neck and neck for the "worst President ...I just read an article today- that since GW is in Australia for talks- they had to close down a 3 mile area of the downtown for security and because of the demonstrations-- as the Aussies in the polls already think he is the worst President ever in US history...
 
And the liberal Democrat controlled Congress has a rating even lower the the President, and they get far better press than the Pres.!!!!

Yeah, it really bites when the Federal gov. took away the goodies for hiway building and repair if a state didn't go along with speed limits back then.

If I recall correctly, the speed limits up there were above 55 mph a year ago when we were there.

Also believe SD hung tough and gave up that gravy train to set our limits as best for SD, tho that WAS a LONG time ago and I may not have it totally accurate.

You do love to hang on to your grudges, don't you.

Better solution is to elect people who will better serve your interests, and let go of the grudges, like we in SD did with Tom Daschle.
mrj
 
Again, can someone explain if this is true once you sign up for NAIS???
If you are a stakeholder of your land and no longer owner, can't they at some point in the future, just take your land???
_______________________________________
By Doreen Hannes
April 22, 2007
NewsWithViews.com

All you have to do is register your property with the USDA under the National Animal Identification System. You'll be assigned a seven-character number that stays with the property forever and the USDA "owns" that number according to " A User Guide" which is their latest public document on the program.

The premise id number or PIN will set you solidly in the position of giving up your rights to ownership. How can I say that? Well, words have meaning for a reason. The USDA, in their original documents regarding NAIS, refers to participants as "stakeholders" repeatedly, twenty one times in the Draft Strategic Plan alone. They also use the term "national herd" and tell us that NAIS is necessary to protect the health and marketability of the "national herd". First let's look at the PIN and then at animal identification with official NAIS compliant tags.

The USDA claims to "own" the PIN (page6 A User Guide) and when one is assigned a PIN either through truly volunteering for it or being rolled into it via other disease control programs, it stays with the property forever (Draft Program Standards pg 16-read the whole section on PIN) and the person who owns the property becomes a stakeholder. The definition of stakeholder is as follows:

"The term stakeholder, as traditionally used in the English language in law and notably gambling, is a third party who temporarily holds money or property while its owner is still being determined."

Yep. While it's owner is still being determined. It doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy. Now let's look at the definition of ownership as a comparison. Wikipedia defines the term as follows:

"Ownership is the state or fact of exclusive possession or control of property, which may be an object, land/real estate, intellectual property or some other kind of property. It is embodied in an ownership right also referred to as title."

So, if you have exclusive possession or control of the property in question, how can you be a stakeholder? Well, you can't be. Either it's your property, or it's someone else's property. With the NAIS, it's not your property once you have a PIN making you a stakeholder and putting you under the jurisdiction of the Area Veterinarian In Charge or AVIC. ("A User Guide" is loaded with 'consult your AVIC' with any questions about anything.)

This brings about some very serious questions regarding not only livestock but also real estate. Since the USDA "owns" the Premise Identification Number (page 6 "A User Guide") and the number can only be 'inactivated' and not expunged or completely annihilated, does it create an encumbrance on property with the PIN? Should that be part of the disclosure on the property? What happens if someone who doesn't want to be in NAIS in any way buys property with a PIN? (You know, since it's "voluntary".) Are they automatically put into the position of stakeholder under the authority of the AVIC? Will the USDA expunge that PIN upon request? According to USDA documents, even though the program is 'voluntary at the Federal level", the PIN stays permanently with the property, not with the person who applied for the PIN. What about the person whose property was assigned a PIN via the roll in procedures that have been employed to increase premise registration numbers using other programs like scrapie and brand registration or participation in the QSA program for cattle? What are the answers to these questions? It sure looks like they will need to be determined in court, as the USDA has no answers available in any of their documents.

Then of course we want to know who owns the "national herd" anyway? It can't be the stakeholder who has been assigned a premise identification number, because the stakeholder is waiting for the rightful owner to be determined, and it can't be the county or the state if this is indeed the National Animal Identification System. When NAIS is in full implementation, all covered animals, 29 species from clams to cattle, will be required to have official identification. Official identification consists of a NAIS compliant number issued with the country code at the beginning. The country code for the United States is 840. It may or may not surprise you to learn that the 840 code covers all financial instruments, like stocks, checks, and bearable securities otherwise known as dollar bills. You can find this beautiful tidbit by searching for ISO-4217. This International Organization of Standards code covers only financial instruments. When I first looked into the 840 country code there was no designation for 840 under the claimed code of ISO-3166 which is a manufacturing standard. There were only two and three character alpha codes, like US and USA, in ISO-3166. The only assignations 6 months ago for "840" were in the ISO-4217 standard which covers financial instruments and a UN assigned country code.

Regulations are already in place making it unlawful to remove or tamper with an official identification device. (User guide page 39) This regulation will lead to fully implemented three component NAIS in the not too distant future. Here's the thing, if you cannot remove an NAIS tag from an animal and the person who sold the animal is a participant in NAIS then the sale of the animal will need to be reported as a high risk activity, and the premise id of the person buying the officially identified animal will have to be recorded, or assigned whichever the case may be, the premise id is not to be expunged only inactivated if animals are no longer held on the property. No rules have been promulgated regarding whether or not official devices must be disclosed as being affixed to the animal at a sale barn, so one could actually purchase an animal with no foreknowledge of it's status as an NAIS compliant animal. However there are plenty of references to participation in the NAIS being built upon the PIN as the foundation of the system. You can't have an NAIS id device on an animal without having a PIN, you can't record 'events' regarding an animal in the NAIS information repositories without having an NAIS identification device on the animal. It's one, two, three, with the foundation of the entire system being premise identification and changing the status of the property holder from owner to stakeholder.

To further substantiate my claims, please look into the case of Mr. Dobbins in the United Kingdom. Some of his numbers on his registered show herd of dairy cattle were not jibing with their passports, so Defra (Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs, the UK's USDA) took all of his cattle passports and confiscated his entire herd giving him 48 hours to positively identify all 576 of his cattle before they destroyed them. He couldn't identify them because Defra had confiscated all of his documents. It's like show me the title to the car, while I have taken the title and hidden it in my house thirty miles away. As an added slap in the face, no indemnity is necessary under EC regulations when animals are not identified in exact compliance with their regulations. The man's entire livelihood was destroyed because not every piece of paper was in the prescribed order.


The USDA doesn't seem to think we can add these things together well enough to see why we have no choice but to resist this scheme with everything we have because they truly believe we are not competent enough to see the correlations between other nation's experiences with these systems and then extrapolate the consequences for ourselves. In the USDA's NAIS How-To-Handbook for their partners in the crime of NAIS implementation, they advise that all messages for potential NAIS stakeholders be designed for a sixth grade reading level. They also give the 'major themes' of those of us opposing the program and state that our arguments all 'fall into a few buckets'. They never do address any of the arguments, and they fail to acknowledge two of the largest arguments of religious objections and Constitutional issues. The Handbook is quite a piece of work and illustrates how "open and transparent" the USDA really is about their desires for the program….After all, they are so open that we had to get a user name with a password to even see the documents they've spent taxpayer money developing to sell this program to people without full disclosure and with no actual cost analysis.



It seems to me that those at the top of the NAIS food chain think that since we trade real labor for fake money to pay fraudulent taxes on stuff we don't own we wouldn't notice just one more affront. It's time to shake off your righteous indignation and ask these officials if they'd like some Boston Tea. ***
 

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