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Question for Angus folks

F

Faster horses

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
30,530
Location
NE WY at the foot of the Big Horn mountains
We need an older bull as we have decided to sell our Pharo bull.
We are kinda past all the bull sales, but I have found a few 18 month
old bulls for sale. I know beggars can't be choosers, BUT I am a real stickler on bloodlines. The sires of these bulls are some I don't know much about so was looking for some input here. We don't want BIG bulls and we want bulls that make good replacements. So, with that in mind, here is some of what is available. Sons of:

GAR Expectation 4915. Notes are he is a big powerful sire. He will add strength and frame. (Added frame is what we don't want, but this bull is sired by EXT and out of a GAR Traveler 2421 dam who goes back to Traveler 23-4 and GAR Scotch Cap. I don't understand where the frame would come from.) His daughters have extra volume and good udders with small teats. Will sire great replacements.

Things I would like to find out more on, and this bull was born in 1995 so there should be some information out there: disposition; feet soundness; and fertility. He is a minus-.07 on scrotal and we try not to buy any minus scrotal bulls. Of course I realize I need to find out about the dams of the bulls for sale, and I will.

Other bull is BC Matrix. He is OCC Emblazon out of an EXT bred daughter, but not direct EXT. Says, "proclaimed to be the most complete son of Emblazon in America. Matrix has proven that he can sire females who will stand the test of time. His daughters are sure to be "environment adaptors" with EXT udders and Emblazon depth.
He has barely a plus on scrotal. I am sure Matrix is a fairly young bull as his accuracies are in the 50% or less.

Based on the stats, I would chose the Matrix. The fellow representing the bulls says the Expectations are his pick as they appear to be longer and are more stylish. The Matrix bull looks to be awfully deep ribbed as far as I can see.

So, please let me have your opinions if you know anything about these bulls~good or bad.

Thanks in advance.
 
FH,


Too bad the border wasnt open to breeding stock their are still some real nice Black angus bulls up here with some exceptional blood lines. There are 2yr olds and yearlings.
 
Expectation goes back twice to Emulation 31 and has 5522 on his sires side--I've had some good 5522 bloodline bulls-- the only thing that seems to throw big frame is the Scotch Cap on the maternal side.....
I can't remember why- but GAR Epectation was in my quick search- so I was looking at him before for some reason tho....Dang oldtimers disease :roll:


But I like you would go with the Matrix-- the +0 MH-- with the deep ribbed Emblazon breeding......

What happened with the Pharo bull?
 
We kept some Expectation heifers and have AIed them this year. They do have decent volume and there dispostion seems to be very good. Don't know about there frame size yet being that they are just yearlings. I know there are better bulls to choose from . I personally would take the deeper ribbed genetics any time provided the carcass numbers were satisfactory.
 
Hey, thanks you all...and baling wire, deeper ribbed as in the Matrix bull?

OT-I picked the Pharo bull on bloodlines for females. We went through the heifers last week and we didn't like them as much as we planned to. They seemed a little light in the rear. We like cattle that look broody as yearlings and want them wide across the beam. They could change so much tho and that is what you don't know at this point. We really didn't have a lot out of him as we bred him to just a few cows the first year just to see how they would be.

As for Scotchcap, the old original Scotch Cap was a pretty good bull and not big. I guess I was thinking that when I saw the pedigree, but this is GAR Scotch Cap 209, so he could be bigger. Of course, GAR stands for Gardiner Angus Ranch.

So maybe we are judging the Pharo bull too early, but...I wished we liked better what we are seeing.

Anyway, if we don't find what we want at this late date, we will just keep him one more year.
 
Expectation is probably more than you want for Mature Weight, FH, judging by what you have said you normally pick for bloodlines.


I love the sales pitch for Matrix. When was he born? And where are these daughters proven to stand the the test of time? I don't know about being "complete", but he sure is about the highest YW son of Emblazon around.

With that said, though, both of them are from pretty well respected fertility lines, in spite of them being negative scrotal.

Scrotal is an indicator, until the proof comes.

The proof is in. Emulous, Travler, and Rito all have at least average(some claim great) fertility in spite of their low scrotals.

Honestly, FH, these bulls sound like a lot more power than you usually take, judging from what you have said before.

If it was me, I would keep the bull you have for one more year. You know he is bigger than you like, but that is a known. Probably a safer bet than picking unknowns at this time of the year, with more power than you normally take.


Badlands
 
FH- You will just have to break down and go to the Diamond D sale next fall...I sure keep hearing some good things from the guys that have bought their bulls and heifers...

I think my son is already planning on making the trip this year.....
 
Diamond D is alot of Wye Plantation breeding I think-boy in the early 70's every stud was full of Wye bulls-then the frame race started-nice to see good solid cattle revisited. The best Angus bull I ever owned went back to a Linebacker of Wye daughter. I've never been a good enough judge to sort heifers with my eye as yearlings-why not breed them for 21 days and let fertility do a sort for you-I've sold some good bulls too soon and regretted it.
 
We didn't go to Diamond D's sale, but we did put a bid in on the 21X's. $4500-$5000 and we didn't get one.

We did buy a 21X son from Rick Hanson at Froid for our heifers. I'm anxious to see him. The older bull we need is for the COWS.

I've been interested in Diamond D's cattle for at least 15 years if not longer. Don't know why we didn't go up there when we were closer and the cattle weren't so expensive. Our mistake...definitely.

We used to primarily get our bulls from Charlie Younkin and he was just a great guy. He too, liked the Wye cattle and we were always going to get together and go up to DeBoos. Of course, Larry Leonhardts cattle are based on Wye breeding too.

The people we have been buying our bulls from bred everything Wye last year, so they will have some next year. They also used Royal Rito and that is a bull I have liked for quite some time.

All this is so interesting. Thanks!
 
In the Genex AI book they have Matrix at a 6.3 frame score and 2550#s.He's so fat in the picture he looks bad I don't like him just does'nt look right to me.

As far as GAR bred cattle I have no interest in any of them.To much hype.
 
FH, just give Gardiner's a call. They'll be happy to answer any questions you have about them. Office (620) 635-2932. Or you can go to their website www.gardinerangus.com and get their home numbers.
 
FH, I personally know the owners of both bulls, and the GAR bull was designed to sire functional real world cattle, and the BC bull was bred to sire show calves. We have several Expectation cattle and are very pleased with the style and preformance. In my opinion the quote that he will add frame is only if used in the GAR herd(avg frame 5.5) our calves are out of 6.5 dams, and the calves proably go a 6.
 
Denny said:
In the Genex AI book they have Matrix at a 6.3 frame score and 2550#s.He's so fat in the picture he looks bad I don't like him just does'nt look right to me.

As far as GAR bred cattle I have no interest in any of them.To much hype.
Click to expand...

I can't think of any breeder in the Angus business that has more outstanding cows working around the country than Gardiners. I wouldn't take what I paid for mine.
Another thing about Gardiners, they started out in a dugout on the plains of Kansas and everything they have has come from cattle.
 
I have a comming 3 year old that I plan to sell this fall. I am selling him to prevent inbreding. He has done me a good job as a yearling and as a two yeay old. And his calves are doing as good as smoe of my AI calves.
You can look him up at www.angus.org his number is 14583923
He is a sired by Summercrest Hi Flyer out of a Woodhill Triple Threat daugther.
http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl.html?A=0E061F55555E45425A58425958435D5543594F41554F4358520F&B=4446594D41554741





BIRTH INFORMATION
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Calving Ease: No Assistance
Birth Weight: 68 Adj Birth Weight: 68 Ratio: 103


WEANING INFORMATION
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Customer: A-327247 Process Date: 07/26/2004 Lot ID: 2
Location: MGT: Non-Creep Fed Weigh Date: 07/16/2004
Group: Contemp Total: 20 Age: 253
Weight: 816 Adj Weight: 715 Ratio: 108
Height: Adj Height:
Frame: WDA: 3.23 Custom:


YEARLING INFORMATION
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Customer: A-327247 Process Date: 11/05/2004 Lot ID: 5
Location: MGT: Adj to 365 Days Weigh Date: 10/14/2004
Group: Contemp Total: 9 Age: 343
Weight: 1075 Adj Weight: 1176 Ratio: 117
Height: Adj Height:
Frame Score: Custom:
Temper: Not Reported
 
THANK YOU ALL.

I have decided to pass on both the Matrix and the Expectation. If I can't get what I really want, why buy one? We'll wait til next year to replace the bull.

I did find some 18 month old bulls out of Really Windy sires. I think that might be more to our liking.

Also, the same guy has used Gardens Prime Time and I can't remember the other bull~ What are your thoughts on Prime Time?
 
Those Really Windy's make pretty nice cows-I've sold lots of him over the years. He seems to be a bull to add some rib and will take some of the crazy out when used on EXT's.
 

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