don
Well-known member
if they put 'source unknown' on every package they're going to label product of usa/mexico/canada it probably would be less healthy for beef demand.
Question for anti-COOL people
- Thread starter Sandhusker
- Start date
Sandhusker
Well-known member
PPRM said:
They know with certainty where every animal they slaughter comes from TODAY. There is absolutely no reason to label "unknown". If the animal ever crossed from Mexico, it has an "M" brand on the jaw. If it came from Canada, it either has a "CAN" brand or it was shipped directly from Canada with papers. If there is no M, CAN, or direct shipment, it's US. It's that dang simple.
Ok...Do all the Country of Origin Labeling you want..I personally do not care...
The reason? I was on a cruise and had "Midwest Grown Corn Fed 30 Days dry Aged" beef at several Restaurants. My expectations were high as I had had some great Steaks in the Past.
I believe it was New Yorks I chose. The reason say that is it was boneless and after eating both I felt ripped off. I told both restaurants that I was pretty certain I had just been fed a ROUND STEAK! I was assured it was New Yorks I had. They were tough and had no flavor...
I will never be excited and as anxious for such a steak again. I am pretty sure eveything could have been accurate except that the steaks likely came from some poorer animal...
So, the first few poor eating experiences by any country of origin will make the label pretty meaningless. People will look to other indicators of a quality eating experience, Like CAB...
However, you brought up the Certified Angus program. It is different in that there are quality standards that directly affect the eating experience that the program is tied to....
Label all you want. The one thing I have found is if you want to get paid for a preference to the calves you produce, the more you do for yourself the more you will get paid,
PPRM
The reason? I was on a cruise and had "Midwest Grown Corn Fed 30 Days dry Aged" beef at several Restaurants. My expectations were high as I had had some great Steaks in the Past.
I believe it was New Yorks I chose. The reason say that is it was boneless and after eating both I felt ripped off. I told both restaurants that I was pretty certain I had just been fed a ROUND STEAK! I was assured it was New Yorks I had. They were tough and had no flavor...
I will never be excited and as anxious for such a steak again. I am pretty sure eveything could have been accurate except that the steaks likely came from some poorer animal...
So, the first few poor eating experiences by any country of origin will make the label pretty meaningless. People will look to other indicators of a quality eating experience, Like CAB...
However, you brought up the Certified Angus program. It is different in that there are quality standards that directly affect the eating experience that the program is tied to....
Label all you want. The one thing I have found is if you want to get paid for a preference to the calves you produce, the more you do for yourself the more you will get paid,
PPRM
Some excellent points PPRM and you brought up the obvious which Sadhusker fails to mention. While CAB has quality parameters attached to it, COOL identified or "American by Default" beef does not.
Sadhusker's argument is solely based on buying American and not on the quality AND consistency that a branded program can offer.
Sandhusker
Well-known member
Bill said:
What you fail to mention is that the requirements to make CAB are so loose that there really is no difference between CAB and "the rest". Any of my Maines qualify for CAB and will eat the same whether they've got the CAB label or not.
Sandhusker said:
Loose? I have to disagree, but then, I have sold calves on the grid where you get these premiums....... Here are some facts.
1) Less than 8% of beef meets the highest standards to become the Certified Angus Beef
2) The MAJORITY of US Choice does not make it. Not only Hide Color restricts this, but also it is the high end Choice they take. I have had Black hided cattle that graded Choice not make it...
3) While they do proclaim standards of less than 1000 pound carcasses and a pretty big Variance in Rib-Eye size ( I think those standards could be tightened), the success of the program shows me they are able to manage the cuts in acordance to the carcass size they are getting,
Sandhusker, do you have the carcass evalutions from your cattle to back that they would or would not make grade? I sell on the grid when my calf numbers outstrip my direct sales customer base, so yes, I do. CAB is not a given for Black Hided...
However, Product of the USA..... It is a cakewalk with the veification. I am pretty certain more than 8% of US cattle will make that mark. Regardless of if they are Standard or High Choice. Yet, you knock a program with higher standards...
PPRM
Sandhusker said:
Are you so biased towards your arguement that you honestly believe what you wrote?
Of course CAB is loose as far as genetics or breed makeup is concerned. many have pointed that out including me. It is the quality and grade parameters we are discussing that feeds into the success of CAB and consumer buy in of the name. None of which are attached to COOL.
Sandhusker
Well-known member
Take Hardees Angus burger; You get a burger with ketchup, pickles, onions, sauce, etc.... Are you going to tell me that Joe Blow from Chicago can pick up any burger and tell the difference between one who's beef came from a choice flank from a select chuck?
Also, we all know that the current standards for selecting quality are antiquated and not truly reflective of what seperates the "good" from the "bad".
Also, we all know that the current standards for selecting quality are antiquated and not truly reflective of what seperates the "good" from the "bad".
Sandhusker said:
Sandhusker,
You picked the program to make your point. It was not a good one...
My full time job is Sales. What I have talked about is nothing new or unique. You can do all sorts of things to get someone to try something once. It is the product that brings them bac. in this case it is the eating experience.
So, my answer is "Yes" there is a repeatable difference the average consumer can recognize. That he can say the calf was black, no..But the flavor of the product is a repeatable experience that brings the customer back....
How true is it? One of the top questions I get at Farmers Markets is the Breed. People recognize the Angus difference because of BOTH Marketing and the quality....
I am not as familiar with Hardees. However, I do prefer an Angus Burger from Burger King. It has great flavor. I am enough of a meat connisuer to know real differences.
I am not at all saying angus has not done a good job of Marketing. They are the best in the industry in my Opinion.... I would like to see some numbers for Certified Hereford... My hope is they are doing as well,I just do not now...
However, I am saying the reason they have stayed up there IS the flavor is great and repeatable....
In some cases you are right, but Choice will generally be better than Select.....Dry aging makes a big difference as does stress... If everything is equal (Feeding, stress, ect), Choice will be better than Select.... It will be more flavorfull and tender....
However, the crux of your arguement seemsto be that Country of origin is more important than Quality grades in determining a repeatable experience of quality. Go back a post or two concerning my "Midwest Corn Fed Aged Beef" Example. It had location of origin....It was crap...CAB Is determined by Quality Grade... I have never had a bad CAB Burger at Burger King... I have never had a Bad CAB Steak... That is remarkable...
But, lets go with your statement that it is antiquated and has no reflection on uality..Show me how Country of Origin has been shown to be the determining factor of flavor and tenderness???
PPRM
A
Anonymous
Guest
PPRM- your the one that stands the most to gain from M-COOL-- as soon as more consumers in your area realize that much of the product that is in the stores does not come from the USA- and that the USDA stamp does not guarantee US product...
Several of the local small plants that were trying to market a branded beef nationwide- that was USA born, raised, and slaughtered- went under mainly because they were not able to compete with generic/imported beef- when that generic/imported beef was being passed off to the customers as US with the USDA inspected stamp...
Under this law- and especially if Congress makes USDA enforce it the way it was supposed to be, which I believe will occur with the change of regime in D.C.- they stand a chance of making a go of it now....
Several of the local small plants that were trying to market a branded beef nationwide- that was USA born, raised, and slaughtered- went under mainly because they were not able to compete with generic/imported beef- when that generic/imported beef was being passed off to the customers as US with the USDA inspected stamp...
Under this law- and especially if Congress makes USDA enforce it the way it was supposed to be, which I believe will occur with the change of regime in D.C.- they stand a chance of making a go of it now....
Oldtimer said:
I call Bullspit................
My Cost per head is $500 to process....My Net after that is about $2,000 per head. I am successful becase I raise Damned Good Meat that people Love. It is totally irrelevant what the imports cost....It is totally irrelevant what I do... I do not sit, piss and moan about everyone else. I go out and make my stake. This is the USA, we have seemingly lost our individuality and become a group that has decided it is what others do that determines our fate...
My Packer (Small guy) is growing phenominally yearly.... The more average commodity stuff Tyson does, the better he does...
It is not rocket science...
These guys failed and have a convenient scapegoat... I can point to myself, Oregon Countrybeef and Painted hills. I can point to a dozen others in my state who have all done well. We are different that what you buy normally. It is the quality of our beef....
Too often I see the approach of "Buy it because I raise it"...I sell meat people will Love.It is what I do, not "What the Bad guys do"...
As Long a you blame others and wait for someone ele to change your position in life, you will reap the benefits of a socialistic society,
PPRM
Sandhusker
Well-known member
The crux of my arguement is that marketing works. Advertising works. Customers respond to it. You're in sales, you know that.
A
Anonymous
Guest
PPRM said:
How many do you market a year- 100- 200? And to where? These guys were marketing 1000's- around the country- by shipping it direct...That raised the cost they had into them...Which to many it may have been worth it had they known that the chunk of beef being passed off to them as US with the USDA stamp actually came from Mexico.... But they were unable to use that for marketing because of the government supported deception...
But you go on PPRM - Keep supporting government backed lying and deception to the US consumer...Keep supporting not being open and transparent...
To me that is like the horse traders of old- that I avoided with a passion...If they don't want to be honest with folks they deal with on one thing- how can you ever trust them on anything :???:
Sandhusker said:
Marketing works..Product of USA will get purchases until the first bad experience..Then it becomes meaningless...
You can get someone to buy something once.... Then the product itself determines the second purchase.....That is the differnece between CAB and Product of The USA... CAB is tied to quality eating experiences that have customers acknowledging something different....
You guys can sit on Product of USA as the deliverance from all of our probems. I am saying to be successful, go beyond that,
I never did say it was bad, I am saying longterm it will not do much, that is why I am not big on it,
PPRM
Oldtimer said:PPRM said:
How many do you market a year- 100- 200? And to where? These guys were marketing 1000's- around the country- by shipping it direct...That raised the cost they had into them...Which to many it may have been worth it had they known that the chunk of beef being passed off to them as US with the USDA stamp actually came from Mexico.... But they were unable to use that for marketing because of the government supported deception...
But you go on PPRM - Keep supporting government backed lying and deception to the US consumer...Keep supporting not being open and transparent...
To me that is like the horse traders of old- that I avoided with a passion...If they don't want to be honest with folks they deal with on one thing- how can you ever trust them on anything :???:
Oldtimer,
You are right. I am not big..However, when I was a Sophomore in High School, I had three shirts..... My Parents were poor. I have come a long ways...And I am not done.
But, you focused only on me...Oregon Country Beef and Painted Hills are successful marketing Thousands... THey put thier name on it. These guys would be successful in a CAB Program, but recognized the more work you do for yourself, the better the paycheck... Kinda the American Way..
They did not sit on their hands saying-----
"If Only we didn't have Imports"
"If Only Tyson would pay us More"
"If Only the government would____"
"If Only Someone Else Would ___"
They went out and found the opportunities.... THe guys you tak about I will grant did try. Looks like they tried to out Tyson Tyson.... Tyson was better and survived. That is Capitalism.....
I am not guarented success for simply trying... THat is what our new Edcation teaches...Always a safety net... Kinda reminds me of the Banking Fiasco...
PPRM
Sandhusker
Well-known member
If one bad experience sinks the boat, every product has got to be losing customers every day and thus in a death spiral. I'm sure that this very day, there were people that had an Angus product that they didn't think lived up to the billing. That means you can count them out. When are they going to run out of customers?
Sandhusker said:
They haven't..They won't...
The overwhelming majority of the experiences are good. I will say more than 3 %..more than 30% of my Beef eating experiences are mediocre to poor... That puts it beyond imports being the problem. That is why i am saying go past that,
That is also why I start looking for brands that I have had good experiences with..CAB is an example... Oregon Country Beef is another...
Every Company knows it will lose customers to a bad experience as everyone makes mistakes The Problem is the overwhelming amount ofmediocre commodity Beef..That is also where he opportunity lies. Product of USA does nothing to ensure a god eating experience.
You keep thinking I am knocking Country Of Origin Labeling. Do it as much as you want to the extent and regimine you want... I am saying that by itself it does little....If you want better profits, you have to go beyond your meat being Comingled with everyone elses (In or out of the USA) at the point people buy it. I have seen Branded and Direct marketing guys go at it with the Tact "Buy from me Because I raise it"...People buy from you and become your customer because it is really good stuff. Product of USA does nothing to try to ensure it is really good stuff. Every US Tom, Dick and Harry can label "Product of USA" whether or not they are doing a good job...
Every Company knows (even CAB) knows they will make mistakes and lose customers. The thing is to have standards that minimize this. CAB's do, and then thier Marketing enables them to grow. Product of USA does not minimize to any extent even close...
PPRM
Sandhusker
Well-known member
I hear what you're saying PP, and you do have good points. However, I can't agree with your assumptions that there is such a wide disparity between the quality of Angus and "the rest" or that the average schmo could tell the difference. I think that is the basis for 90% of our disagreement.
Sandhusker said:
I think you are right on the 90% part....
It does not help when I just keep thinking of all of the great Angus BUrgers I have had at Burger King and my mouth salivates... It reinforces my rigidity on the issue, LOL...Now if you had used microsoft as the example...They do not have the best products and won the world with market execution....
If we all agreed on everything we would never move forward with new and innovative ideas...
I liken our Industry and its opportunites to that of the Beer Industry in the 80's....Miller, Coors and such companies grew and took over everyone else. yocould not beat them in the commodity beer market. However, many a milloinaire has been made in the Microbrew industry..And many a well intentioned entreprenuer has also failed. All parts of the business must be in place fo the whole to survive,
Enjoy the nights sleep and the week Sandhusker, This is our passion and fun,
PPRM
PPRM
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
I don't see it as a horseshit maneuver just because it goes against RQuack's INTENT. Nowhere and at no time did the COOL law ever mention or require segregation, just that the origin of beef be marked and its still being marked. At one time you said that you were concerned about outside beef being passed off as US because of the USDA stamp.
This can no longer be done so apparently you were concerned about more than that as the outside beef will be marked.
I believe you are protectionist because you realize that forcing segregation will truly be expensive, forcing packers to make a decision about whether or not they will process beef from other countries. Since outside beef only amounts to around 4 or 5% of your total processing, its a no-brainer what will be dropped. I think you're smart enough to understand that, and its pretty obvious it was R-Quack's intent from the beginning, therefore COOL (as you and RQuack see it being implemented) is really nothing more than a trade barrier or a protectionist act.
Rod