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Question for Randy Kaiser

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Anonymous

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Randy,

What proof do you have to support your allegation that Tyson and/or Cargill wanted the Canadian border to remain closed so they could continue to profit in Canada?

You made the allegation now where is your proof to back this allegation.


You folks want to see avoidance and diversion, watch randy divert this question due to his inability to back his position.



~SH~
 

Denny

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~SH~ said:
Randy,

What proof do you have to support your allegation that Tyson and/or Cargill wanted the Canadian border to remain closed so they could continue to profit in Canada?

You made the allegation now where is your proof to back this allegation.


You folks want to see avoidance and diversion, watch randy divert this question due to his inability to back his position.



~SH~

All he has to do is put a spin on it like you do read your post's you always say alot and end up saying nothing YOUR SO SMART :shock: :shock: :shock:
 

rkaiser

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You got me SH. I don't have proof. Other than the proof that Agman dug up and posted on the other thread.

You sure like to introduce me to "the other people" don't you SH. Does your ego need that support or rejection. I don't give a rats ass if everyone on this thread thinks I am wrong, or a nutcase, or a loose cannon, or a kindergarten student. My arguement is with you and Agman, and a bit of, what you call, ankle biting from Jason.

No one is really to blame for the economic BSE debacle in Canada.

The governments of Canada and the US are to stupid to deal a deck of cards let alone deal with something as totally WRONG as this.

Rcalf's tactics were ludicrous, but there goal was to get money for there members. Should we blame them?

Tyson and Cargill profitted profusely but legally. Is that their fault?

You are on such a mission to root out PACKER BLAMERS SH that you can't look at what happened and even call it a problem. And if you think it was or is a problem; your only solution is status quo.

NOONE IS TO BLAME, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.
 

Kato

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That's enough scrapping. It's not just Randy that thinks this, it's about 99.9% of Canadian cattle producers.

Perhaps the plants in the U.S. did make less money than they would like, but they made up the lossses with the income from the Canadian divisions. How could they not make money buying cattle at our prices, then selling beef to you at your prices? Do the math. Buy low, sell high. Isn't that the dream of all businessmen? If they could lose money at that, then they wouldn't even be in business in normal times. They would be complete idiots.

I can see packers who didn't have plants here wanting the border open, but those who are on both sides of the border were quite happy with things just the way they were. They were more than willing to go with the flow, as they say, until they could see that it was coming to an end. I expect with the prospect of the loss of a captive supply (in the truest sense of the word), that they could see it was time to make a token show of support for us, since they wouldn't want us too mad at them when the new competition came bidding on cattle. They want us to forget the pillaging that went on, and go back to business as usual.

We've been educated now, and I sure hope we don't fall back into the old ways. That would be the worst thing that could happen.
 

Jason

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Kato not all Canadians are packer blamers. It is easy to villify huge corporations but consider a few basics. In Canada the taxes labor costs and utility costs are higher for a plant to operate.

The plants here lost the income from offal and had to start paying for it's disposal. The US plants were months behind in SRM removal. Also the plants here have to be segregated. Tyson Lakeside had to stop killing cows so they could keep killing UTM.

Since the border has opened fats have gained about 6-7 cents. Would that extra 6-7 cents all last year have made a huge difference to producers? Maybe it would add $3-4000 per 100 head herd. With that money both major plants have increased capacity by 1000 head per day, exactly what Canada needs, but some aren't happy it was the big boys that did it.

To build a 1000 head per day plant costs millions and most new ventures fail. These ones being tied to already functional plants most likely won't fail. At the $3000 potentially taken from producers by the big plants, it would take 10,000 producers to pay for a 30 million dollar plant. Those same producers would have roughly 1 million calves to process. The plant could handle 250,000 give or take.

Problem 1, find 10,000 producers who will invest $3000 in the same plant.

Problem 2, you own a plant that has to now compete so premiums are really not likely, dividends from profits are safest. At $3.88 average profit per head over the long term dividends woulf be about $97 per producer per year. Pretty good for a $3000 investment...just over 3%

Problem 3, you still need the big boys to process the other 750,000 cattle.

I would love to see all cattle processed in producer owned plants, but reality is the beef industry is very tight and there isn't a lot of room for mistakes. I am glad there are some companies that have stuck it out and gotten good at what they do.

Just reality, if anyone sees a better set of numbers please post them for discussion.
 
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Denny: "All he has to do is put a spin on it like you do read your post's you always say alot and end up saying nothing YOUR SO SMART"

I'll take that as your inability to add anything of substance to the post.

You certainly didn't address the question.

Did you have a point or are you here for Tyson blaming moral support?

When you can contradict what I have stated with facts to the contrary, bring it. Until then, keep making your meaningless little statements and prove you can't.


Randy: "You got me SH. I don't have proof. Other than the proof that Agman dug up and posted on the other thread."

Thanks for finally admitting that you cannot back your position.

If you didn't have the proof, why would you speculate?

That's the problem you have with Agman and I. You want to speculate without being bothered with the facts that prove you wrong.

The proof that Agman dug up contradicted your position which makes you resentful towards us for daring to present the facts and rain on your parade.

I won't apologize for presenting the facts which you see as defending packers.


Randy: "No one is really to blame for the economic BSE debacle in Canada."

Well I'm sure R-CULT appreciates you giving them a free pass on filing a court injunction claiming that your beef is "high risk" and "contaminated which shut you off from your historic markets.

That's pretty generous of you.


Randy: "Rcalf's tactics were ludicrous, but there goal was to get money for there members. Should we blame them?"

They lied about the safety of your product. I would certainly hold them accountable for that. You didn't see NCBA lieing about the safety of your product.


Randy: "You are on such a mission to root out PACKER BLAMERS SH that you can't look at what happened and even call it a problem. And if you think it was or is a problem; your only solution is status quo."

Wrong again Randy! I think what happened in Canada was a travesty. For R-CULT to use BSE as a catalyst to stop Canadian imports and lie about the safety of your product and jeoprodize the integrity of the safety of our product was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen in this industry. R-CALF's political tactics epitomizes everything that is disgusting about our industry.

You should never have been placed in a postition of having more cattle than slaughter capacity for more than a short period of time.

The problem was clearly the lies of R-CULT that closed the border and sent your industry into an economic ruin.

A situation that R-CULT denies out of one corner of their mouth while they lie about the safety of your product out the other.


Kato: "That's enough scrapping. It's not just Randy that thinks this, it's about 99.9% of Canadian cattle producers."

They can think what ever they want but the fact remains that Tyson wanted the border opened and filed an amicus brief stating so.


Kato: " Perhaps the plants in the U.S. did make less money than they would like, but they made up the lossses with the income from the Canadian divisions. How could they not make money buying cattle at our prices, then selling beef to you at your prices? Do the math.'

Agman already proved that assumption incorrect by providing the actual financial data for Tyson during that period of time.

Do you not believe it?

If you want to do the math, do the math. Do the math that realizes that the cattle that now have to be slaughtered in Canada, used to be slaughtered in the U.S. What you added to Canadian plants you have to subtract from U.S. plants.

Do the math that looks at the number of cattle that Tyson and Cargill normally slaughter in the U.S. and compare it to the number of cattle they used to slaughter in Canada. Let's just assume that Tyson slaughters 7 times more cattle in Canada than in the U.S. Do you honestly believe that Tyson is paying you 7 times less for your cattle to make up their losses in slaughtering U.S. cattle? DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT?

Yeh Kato, do the math!


Kato: "I can see packers who didn't have plants here wanting the border open, but those who are on both sides of the border were quite happy with things just the way they were. They were more than willing to go with the flow, as they say, until they could see that it was coming to an end. I expect with the prospect of the loss of a captive supply (in the truest sense of the word), that they could see it was time to make a token show of support for us, since they wouldn't want us too mad at them when the new competition came bidding on cattle."

TOTAL SPECULATION ON YOUR PART!

You don't have a single thing to present to back that position.

To the contrary, Tyson filed an amicus brief in support of opening the border.

To the contrary, the AMI filed a suit against USDA to allow the importation of cattle into the U.S.

To the contrary, U.S. plants that used to rely on Canadian cattle were shut down or greatly reduced.

Everyone thinks they are an authority on the packing industry and their motives but none of you can ever back your positions with supporting evidence.


In a court of law, nobody gets a pass to speculate on motive just because they were hurt financially. You have an obligation to support your position, not speculate.

Jason understands the bigger picture and he went through the same thing you did.


Speculating on packer motives will not change what happened. Expanding your slaughter capacity to cover your cattle and assuring that trade agreements are not threatened by lies will.


~SH~
 

rkaiser

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You're a determined little fellow SH, that's for sure.

Agmans FACTs gave me all the proof I need (that is I SH - I don't give a **** what anybody else thinks including you) All the facts that I need to show that Tyson had no drive to open the border.

Enjoy yhe rest of your day SH, trying to convince yourself of a whole bunch of other things by posting and posting and cutting and pasting, and blaming and accusing and fighting and ------------------------
 

Northern Rancher

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I dealt with the packers throughout the whole border closure-it's a bit naieve to think they didn't make some money off our backs. Maybe 6 or 7 cents isn't anything to you but it's close to 100 bucks a head-would of paid the land taxes. I'm not a packer lover or hater just a cattleman who realizes they are necessary for the wheels to turn. I'm like anybody else when there's lots of cattle and they bid low I kinda hate 'em when things are short and they get aggressive I'm a bit more tolerant. Just being a devil's advocate Randy-but aren't you a small scale packer yourself with your beef program-would you open up your books so I can see how much money you are making-I doubt it. The way I look at it if you buy cattle from whoever and they sell to you what you make with them is your business. As for SH and Agman unless you were a rancher in Canada the last two years you don't really know what the situation was like-it's one thing watching a tornado on TV it's another thing being in the middle of it.
 

Sandhusker

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Northern Rancher said:
I dealt with the packers throughout the whole border closure-it's a bit naieve to think they didn't make some money off our backs. Maybe 6 or 7 cents isn't anything to you but it's close to 100 bucks a head-would of paid the land taxes. I'm not a packer lover or hater just a cattleman who realizes they are necessary for the wheels to turn. I'm like anybody else when there's lots of cattle and they bid low I kinda hate 'em when things are short and they get aggressive I'm a bit more tolerant. Just being a devil's advocate Randy-but aren't you a small scale packer yourself with your beef program-would you open up your books so I can see how much money you are making-I doubt it. The way I look at it if you buy cattle from whoever and they sell to you what you make with them is your business. As for SH and Agman unless you were a rancher in Canada the last two years you don't really know what the situation was like-it's one thing watching a tornado on TV it's another thing being in the middle of it.

Tyson is a public company, they are required to open their books.
 

Northern Rancher

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I realize that-lets face it the meat business is a predatory business for the most part-nothing noble about the pursuit of profit it's just the way it is.
 

agman

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Northern Rancher said:
I dealt with the packers throughout the whole border closure-it's a bit naieve to think they didn't make some money off our backs. Maybe 6 or 7 cents isn't anything to you but it's close to 100 bucks a head-would of paid the land taxes. I'm not a packer lover or hater just a cattleman who realizes they are necessary for the wheels to turn. I'm like anybody else when there's lots of cattle and they bid low I kinda hate 'em when things are short and they get aggressive I'm a bit more tolerant. Just being a devil's advocate Randy-but aren't you a small scale packer yourself with your beef program-would you open up your books so I can see how much money you are making-I doubt it. The way I look at it if you buy cattle from whoever and they sell to you what you make with them is your business. As for SH and Agman unless you were a rancher in Canada the last two years you don't really know what the situation was like-it's one thing watching a tornado on TV it's another thing being in the middle of it.

I have Canadian producer clients and I am much more aware of your situation than you may realize. I am not defending the packer but I am defending the facts. RK has now admitted he has no proof of his allegations. I respect that display of integrity. But what else could he say? As I said previously, he got STUFFED? He fell into his own trap and now is out of wiggle room.
 

agman

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rkaiser said:
You got me SH. I don't have proof. Other than the proof that Agman dug up and posted on the other thread.

You sure like to introduce me to "the other people" don't you SH. Does your ego need that support or rejection. I don't give a rats ass if everyone on this thread thinks I am wrong, or a nutcase, or a loose cannon, or a kindergarten student. My arguement is with you and Agman, and a bit of, what you call, ankle biting from Jason.

No one is really to blame for the economic BSE debacle in Canada.

The governments of Canada and the US are to stupid to deal a deck of cards let alone deal with something as totally WRONG as this.

Rcalf's tactics were ludicrous, but there goal was to get money for there members. Should we blame them?

Tyson and Cargill profitted profusely but legally. Is that their fault?

You are on such a mission to root out PACKER BLAMERS SH that you can't look at what happened and even call it a problem. And if you think it was or is a problem; your only solution is status quo.

NOONE IS TO BLAME, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

"I don't have proof",what a statement RK. So you have just been a big bag of wind all along. Who gave you a mirror? You argued with your echo and lost; doesn't get any lower than that RK.
 

Maple Leaf Angus

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Agman, you and ~SH~ are nothing more than you accuse Randy of being. You have reaptedly proven nothing with all of your "facts". I have to wonder what kind of person it is that delights in being as obtuse as you two have been.

If your reasoning would be correct, one could also say that

A) a rape victim was largely responsible for her rape,

B) the rapist wasn't all that bad, he was just taking advantage of the lack of law enforcement at the time that he happened to get the urge to assault an available victim

C) when the rape victim shows anger or resistance, she should just shut up, go home and not worry about the risk of being raped again, in spite of the small matter that the rapist is still unabashedly on the loose.

. . .the comparison could go on as long as you want to continue spouting your arrogant stupidity.

Agman, perhaps you could take your love of facts and go enlist and straighten out some Taliban or Al Quaeda, your efforts would maybe have more appreciation over there. Your attitude is typical of what makes your kind so endeared to the rest of the world.

Now go ahead, you dogs, and say that I am diverting. That is your favourite tactic when you don't like what your opponent said. You are lower than a snake's belly to the ground.

Someday you will get what is coming to you. It can't happen soon enough.

And your puppies on this side of the border will be tucking their puny little tails between their legs and running for cover.
 

agman

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Maple Leaf Angus said:
Agman, you and ~SH~ are nothing more than you accuse Randy of being. You have reaptedly proven nothing with all of your "facts". I have to wonder what kind of person it is that delights in being as obtuse as you two have been.

If your reasoning would be correct, one could also say that

A) a rape victim was largely responsible for her rape,

B) the rapist wasn't all that bad, he was just taking advantage of the lack of law enforcement at the time that he happened to get the urge to assault an available victim

C) when the rape victim shows anger or resistance, she should just shut up, go home and not worry about the risk of being raped again, in spite of the small matter that the rapist is still unabashedly on the loose.

. . .the comparison could go on as long as you want to continue spouting your arrogant stupidity.

Agman, perhaps you could take your love of facts and go enlist and straighten out some Taliban or Al Quaeda, your efforts would maybe have more appreciation over there. Your attitude is typical of what makes your kind so endeared to the rest of the world.

Now go ahead, you dogs, and say that I am diverting. That is your favourite tactic when you don't like what your opponent said. You are lower than a snake's belly to the ground.

Someday you will get what is coming to you. It can't happen soon enough.

And your puppies on this side of the border will be tucking their puny little tails between their legs and running for cover.

Perhaps you will point to any error in any factual data I have posted and correct me. If you can't, then what are you talking about? You are just spewing hot air like RK. When you can't debate the facts you resort to your type of commentary which is meaningless.
 
A

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Maple Leaf: "You have reaptedly proven nothing with all of your "facts".

We proved what Tyson's beef processing profits were BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.

We proved that Tyson filed an amicus brief in support of opening the border BUT YOU THINK THAT WAS A SMOKESCREEN.

We proved that the AMI filed a suit against USDA to open the border to Canadian slaughter cattle BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.

I asked you to consider the number of Tyson plants in Canada vs. the number of Tyson plants in the U.S. and consider the slaughter numbers of each BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO CONSIDER THAT.

I presented the fact that the additional cattle that had to be slaughtered in Canada were no longer available to the packing companies in the U.S. BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO CONSIDER THAT EITHER.

What did any of you bring to prove that Tyson wanted the border to stay closed?

NOT A DAMN THING!

Why so resentful towards those of us who present the facts to the contrary.

I don't give two sh*ts for Tyson or Cargill but I do care about facts and I do care about the truth. Somehow presenting the truth and defending the facts becomes looked down upon by those who don't want to hear it.

Is the desire to blame Tyson and Cargill really that strong that you will not accept the truth?

Everyone knows that Tyson and Cargill took advantage of the opportunity handed to them in Canada. Nobody ever said they didn't so I don't know why you guys think that we don't understand the economic plight of the Canadian producer.

Maple Leaf I have no idea why you would hope that I get whatever it is you think I have coming to me. I supported opening the Canadian border based on sound science. I defended Canada against the R-CULT liars.

WHEN THE HELL DID I BECOME THE ENEMY?????

Oh I'll bet the R-CULTers are really loving this when you turn against those who supported you.

The issue here is whether that profit taking in Canada offset the losses in the United States.

Agman presented Tyson's financial data that proves that Randy was wrong. So line up and defend him anyway. Where the hell is the logic?

Did anyone else present anything to support their position? NO!

You guys can believe whatever you want but it's just meaningless packer blaming rhetoric if it cannot be supported by facts.

You don't like the message so you attack the messenger.

Not one of you can admit that you would conduct business differently if you were in Tyson's shoes.

Randy admits that there was nothing illegal about it so what else is there to say? You want sympathy? You got it!

If I didn't care about the plight of the Canadian producer, I'd join R-CULT in their lies about the safety of your product and laugh as your industry withered on the vine. You guys don't know who your friends are.



~SH~
 

Maple Leaf Angus

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agman said:
Maple Leaf Angus said:
Agman, you and ~SH~ are nothing more than you accuse Randy of being. You have reaptedly proven nothing with all of your "facts". I have to wonder what kind of person it is that delights in being as obtuse as you two have been.

If your reasoning would be correct, one could also say that

A) a rape victim was largely responsible for her rape,

B) the rapist wasn't all that bad, he was just taking advantage of the lack of law enforcement at the time that he happened to get the urge to assault an available victim

C) when the rape victim shows anger or resistance, she should just shut up, go home and not worry about the risk of being raped again, in spite of the small matter that the rapist is still unabashedly on the loose.

. . .the comparison could go on as long as you want to continue spouting your arrogant stupidity.

Agman, perhaps you could take your love of facts and go enlist and straighten out some Taliban or Al Quaeda, your efforts would maybe have more appreciation over there. Your attitude is typical of what makes your kind so endeared to the rest of the world.

Now go ahead, you dogs, and say that I am diverting. That is your favourite tactic when you don't like what your opponent said. You are lower than a snake's belly to the ground.

Someday you will get what is coming to you. It can't happen soon enough.

And your puppies on this side of the border will be tucking their puny little tails between their legs and running for cover.

Perhaps you will point to any error in any factual data I have posted and correct me. If you can't, then what are you talking about? You are just spewing hot air like RK. When you can't debate the facts you resort to your type of commentary which is meaningless.

. . . meaningless to those devoid of understanding and capability of human reasoning.
 

rkaiser

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Agman, if you are going to quote part of my statement, leave the rest out from your post.
Randy said
You got me SH. I don't have proof. Other than the proof that Agman dug up and posted on the other thread.

Other than the proof that Agman dug up and posted on the other thread.

You proved yourself that profits were fine until early January when Tyson really turned on the "Open the border" song and dance. Losses in America were delt with just fine by profits in Canada up until supply became a wee bit tighter up here in Canader.

Like I said before Agman, Thank you for that. That was all I needed. Thanks for satifying my needs.

Now if you want to continue to convince others of the ethical, complimentary tactics of Tyson to help the whole situation out including the plight of the Canadian rancher, start another thread. I promise I won't bother you.

Oh and by the way Northern Rancher. Our producers have been locked in at $1.60 on the rail for almost two years. We had a price of $1.75 when the border locked down and our marketer kept his contract until renewal in November 03 when we locked up the $1.60. Not bad, especially when you consider we qualified for a shitload of that government money handed out in the summer of 03. Money that "Guess Who " got as well.
 
A

Anonymous

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Randy THE DECEIVER: "Other than the proof that Agman dug up and posted on the other thread.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Randy, you went back and edited your post. You got caught with you hand in the cookie jar because I had already copied your original quote.

You never said a damn thing about "EXCEPT THE PROOF THAT AGMAN POSTED IN THE OTHER THREAD" the first time. You added that later because you got caught in a contradiction.

You are a such a hoot!

Reminds me of Hayseed giving himself support on the old forum by using another alias.

Way too funny!



~SH~
 

rkaiser

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You fogort to take your pill SH. Go back and read it again. I did nothing but cut and paste.

You're really on a roll aren't you SH. So caught up in your job that you can't even read. JOB IS> Defend the packers against evil blamers.
 

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