R-CALF United Stockgrowers of America

[Anonymous]

Sand: "I KNOW they're placing economics over food safety."

No, you have convinced yourself that USDA is placing economics over food safety with nothing to support that allegation but a baseless conspiracy theory driven only by your compelling need to blame USDA.

If USDA was placing economics over food safety, they would have allowed Creekstone to deceive Japanese consumers with 100% testing ("false advertising").

Once again, you shoot yourself in the foot with your own arguments.

The only economic interests that have clouded this issue is the economic interests of R-CULT stopping Canadian live cattle imports.

Sand: "You can't see it or simply won't admit it because that would be against your need to be contrary."

I won't admit it because, as always, there is no proof to back your allegation.

This isn't about my need to be contrary, it's about your need to blame USDA and stop Canadian live cattle imports!

Sand: "They did it and are doing it with the Japan situation. It's all about the AMI's checkbook. As a producer, you should be infuriorated that the AMI's fear of a $20 test (paid by the customer) trumps your desire to export beef. "

I am infuriated that consumer deceivers like you would place Creekstone's economics over the safety of the Japanese consumer.

Fielding himself said that 100% testing didn't mean BSE free?

WHO'S PUTTING SAFETY FIRST YOU HYPOCRITE?

Sand: "They abandoned policy that they told Congress was integral to keeping BSE out of here when suddenly that policy was hurting the AMI's business plans."

They considered modifying a policy to account for the BSE precautionary measures we have taken and to account for the BSE precautionary measures taken by other countries. Unlike R-CALF, USDA realizes that we cannot set a BSE presedence with Canada that we are unwilling to live with for our export markets if the Canadian BSE shoe were on our foot.

You, on the other hand, will change positions to fit the situation like the deceiver you are.

If the USDA is catering to the AMI's business plan, how can you explain AMI's lawsuit against the USDA for not allowing the importation of cattle over 30 months of age from Canada???

YOU CAN'T AND WON'T ANSWER THAT BECAUSE ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE INTRODUCED TO YOUR OWN IGNORANCE!

Sand: "Nobody had a problem with that policy for the first 22 countries that got BSE, but number 23 was different. Ask yourself why #23 was different. Does it have anything to do with economics?"

#23 was different due to their traceback system, due to their agressive BSE testing in the highest risk categories, due to their feed ban implementation, due to their ban on slaughtering downer cows which Leo lied about, and due to SRM removal.

If Leo says our firewalls are sufficient to insure the safety of our product in the event of another case of BSE, why wouldn't those same firewalls assure the safety of Canadian product?

YEH, THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT!

Time to divert!

Sand: "The Canadians are right, it is suddenly pretty obvious the USDA is not serious about rooting out BSE cases. If health is their highest concern, why do they have to be forced to find out for sure on that Texas cow? Do they seem to be prioritizing health?"

Oh, I see, now we can blame USDA for FDA's request for additional testing on the Texas cow THAT RETURNED THE SAME RESULTS.

Hahaha!

The USDA blame never ends!

Should they retest the same sample again next month JUST TO BE SURE???? What about next year?

The Canadians are wrong to assume that there is a USDA coverup. How convenient that you will join hands with the Canadians in their USDA suspicions while stabbing them in the back by questioning the safety of their product when they have the same firewalls in place that Leo claims are adequate to assure the safety of our beef.

Sand: "I have a suspicion Bill Hawke's resignation is closely related."

Yeh, and perhaps Bill Hawkes was actually Deep Throat too huh? LOL!

Your conspiracies are only limited by your imagination.



~SH~

 

[Sandhusker]

I'm not going to be drawn into another hog wrestling match, but your nonsense needs answering.

SH, "If USDA was placing economics over food safety, they would have allowed Creekstone to deceive Japanese consumers with 100% testing ("false advertising"). Once again, you shoot yourself in the foot with your own arguments."

Why do you continue your false advertising joke? I posted the USDA's exact statement in denying Creekstone, and there was NOTHING about false adverstising. I asked you to show me where the USDA used false advertising as a reason to deny Creekstone and you couldn't bring it! False advertising as a rediculous notion you dreamed up. Even if the USDA used that as a reason (which they did NOT), it is still a joke. Creekstone is only selling tested beef to Japanese wholesalers with the promise that is has been tested. They're not even advertising one bit! Where is the advertisement that is false? They're just asking to test beef so they can say it has been tested PER JAPANESE LAW! On top of it, their beef would be placed next to other beef in Japan THAT SAYS THE SAME DANG THING! Lastly, when has it been the USDA's job to rule on food IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY!

SH, "I am infuriated that consumer deceivers like you would place Creekstone's economics over the safety of the Japanese consumer."

Where is the deception? Japanese law says the beef must be tested! IT'S THEIR FLIPPING LAW - THEY WROTE IT - THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE ASKING! How is the Japanese consumer's safety being compromised? It's Creekstone's economics? NCBA says it costs ALL of us $175/head!

SH, "Fielding himself said that 100% testing didn't mean BSE free?"

Great for Fielding, but Creekstone isn't saying 100% testing is BSE free. They're saying 100% testing simply means the beef has been tested PER JAPANESE LAW!

SH, "WHO'S PUTTING SAFETY FIRST YOU HYPOCRITE?"

Who's safety is being compromised?

SH, "They considered modifying a policy to account for the BSE precautionary measures we have taken and to account for the BSE precautionary measures taken by other countries. Unlike R-CALF, USDA realizes that we cannot set a BSE presedence with Canada that we are unwilling to live with for our export markets if the Canadian BSE shoe were on our foot."

The Canadian BSE shoe IS on our foot! Do you have any idea what other countries are demanding of us before they take our product? HINT: IT'S MORE THAN WHAT THE USDA WANT'S TO ASK OF CANADA!

SH, "If the USDA is catering to the AMI's business plan, how can you explain AMI's lawsuit against the USDA for not allowing the importation of cattle over 30 months of age from Canada??? " YOU CAN'T AND WON'T ANSWER THAT BECAUSE ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE INTRODUCED TO YOUR OWN IGNORANCE!"

The USDA knows that won't fly at all! They've pushed it far enough letting beef in. The AMI is used to getting it all and they're pressing the issue.

SH, "#23 was different due to their traceback system, due to their agressive BSE testing in the highest risk categories, due to their feed ban implementation, due to their ban on slaughtering downer cows which Leo lied about, and due to SRM removal."

BULL! There are a lot of countries with much more stringent BSE measures in place than Canada! Why weren't things changed for them?

SH, "If Leo says our firewalls are sufficient to insure the safety of our product in the event of another case of BSE, why wouldn't those same firewalls assure the safety of Canadian product?"

You mean the firewalls that the USDA has put in place but aren't enforcing?

SH, "Oh, I see, now we can blame USDA for FDA's request for additional testing on the Texas cow THAT RETURNED THE SAME RESULTS. Hahaha!
The USDA blame never ends! Should they retest the same sample again next month JUST TO BE SURE???? What about next year?"

Would you care to make a bet on what England says about the cow the USDA said was BSE free?

 

[Maple Leaf Angus]

The Canadians are wrong to assume that there is a USDA coverup. How convenient that you will join hands with the Canadians in their USDA suspicions while stabbing them in the back by questioning the safety of their product when they have the same firewalls in place that Leo claims are adequate to assure the safety of our beef.
~SH~

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions whether we are right or wrong about that , ~SH~.

As for "join[ing] hands with the Canadians", don't look for too many Canadians reaching out to reciprocate the action. We learned some time ago that we are better off on our own.

 

[rkaiser]

Sandman says "Here's the deal as I see it, Randy. The USDA is not doing the job assigned to them. This BSE is nasty, nasty stuff and everything possible needs to be done to keep it out of here or eradicate it if we have it. For the USDA to abandon set policy just so the AMI can trade is totally unacceptable - and there is no way one can say policy was not changed for the Canada situation. Someone has to step up and yell "whoa". Considering what is at stake here, wouldn't you expect an organization representing ranchers to raise a stink?

The USDA went from a zero tolerance policy to one where they can't even define risk. They talk about using science, but is "low" a scientific measurement? If being upset about the USDA's handling of BSE is "protectionist", I unashamededly proclaim myself to be protectionist with a capital P. That outfit has to be held accountable to their assignment - they are risking our business. They get away with this now, what is coming down the pike?

Now I'm going to jab you a little, Randy. You think R-CALF is wrong for standing up to the USDA and you call them protectionist. You think the US should accept your product. Yet, how is Canada treating the product of other BSE positive countries? Is the CCA in favor of allowing European beef into your country? Are they in favor of allowing Japanese product into Canada? Both Europe and Japan have more extensive SRM removal and testing than you do. With that in mind, aren't you folks guilty of the same of which you curse R-CALF?"

Listen Sandhusker, UDSA is run by the packers. On that account, you and I will agree, and SH would challenge me.

USDA needs to be held accountable just as the CFIA. It may have to be the job of the producer groups of both of our countries to do this, however money rules every capitalist country in the world, and rules the non capitalist ones even more. I will not get into the left wing right wing BS on this post, but I will bluntly say again that money is at the root of all of this. Your talk about the dangers of BSE are bolstered by the fear mongers like Reader(the second) whose views support the BS that Rcalf has jumped all over to run down Canada.

Raise some stink, Sundhusker, keep your government honest, but don't tell me for a second that Rcalf's aggressive actions toward the Canadian Cattleman have anything to do with anything but money.

Talking about Canada's regulations regarding trade with other countries is a diversion and nothing but. Canada and the USA are unique. We have traded beef and cattle so much that we do truely have an integrated market. Trying to divide the herd to make this a country battle was Rcalf's first mistake. You may have a few more flag wavers down there, but reality will settle in long before their flags need to be exchanged for new ones. I even sense a bit of dedication to Cattle producers rather than Americans in your tone lately.

If this cow is not the one that I predicted would be found before any boxed beef blockage caused Cargil and Tyson to loose the Canadian "Salomon run" of profits, another will.

Cargil and Tyson had no need before to pressure your USDA other than the BS support for AMI, and NMA in the court injunction. NOW THEY HAVE.The threat of a boxed beef closure is real, and Canadian officials talking of BSE testing is also finally real. The raping of Canadian producers was going to end one way or another, and I believe thay have decided to end it their way. Bury Rcalf, with a campaign to connect them to consumer confidence and their nonsense fear monguring. Open the border, and show the transparency of the US government.

Yah, I say BS to that last point too. But you boys at Rcalf have cooked your own goose, and the Canadians and folks like SH have warned you all along.

I hope that you enjoyed the run of cull cow prices Sandman, and I hope the loans you approved for your Rcalf buddies are secured by something other than cows. This thing is going to change drastically now, AND NO I am not going to enjoy watching producers of your country suffer. In fact, I will not even enjoy watching Rcalf dismantled by the greedy ones who find opportunity on the way down. We do need producer groups to oppose, and watch the actions of government, even if they wield little power. But when those producer groups become overrun with greed, and power hungry foolish leaders like Rcalf has, it's time for them to fall as well.

 

[Kathy]

Randy, Just a quick note.

BSE has been found to be transmissible under certain, conditions. Those being in a lab setting using procedures which homogenize, digest (enzyme Protease K destroys healthy proteins), concentrate (and isolate), sonicate and intracranially inject or, in a few cases drench directly into the stomach (this end product).

It has never been shown in experiments to be transmissible via normal feeding practices, even when they homogenized the tissue and added it to the feed.

 

[Jeannie]

SAY HAY MAKER, how would you interpret the "press release" that you cut and pasted?

What I mean is, please put it in your own words.P.S. if you can. Good Luck.

I interpret it like most,that have an unbiased opinion,R calf is working hard to insure the safety of the american cattle industry.And BSE is a health concern it is not,never has beeen, and never will be an economic issuse...................good luck

Nearly choked on my coffee!

 

[Anonymous]

Sand: ".....your nonsense needs answering."

Your answers are the nonsense.

Sand: "I posted the USDA's exact statement in denying Creekstone, and there was NOTHING about false adverstising."

USDA does not have to come out and use the words "false advertising" for 100% testing to be FALSE ADVERTISING.

Stating that USDA didn't say "false advertising" does not circumvent the fact that 100% BSE testing is "false advertising". Another "red herring" divertion thrown out by you by pretending that USDA has to SAY "false advertising" for 100% BSE testing to BE "false advertising.

BSE testing of cattle less than 24 months of age implies SAFETY while BSE prions are not even revealed in cattle less than 24 months of age. If the intent of 100% BSE testing is not to imply BSE FREE why do it?

Sand: "I asked you to show me where the USDA used false advertising as a reason to deny Creekstone and you couldn't bring it!"

Meaningless argument!

See above!

Sand: "False advertising as a rediculous notion you dreamed up."

Sand: "Creekstone is only selling tested beef to Japanese wholesalers with the promise that is has been tested. They're not even advertising one bit!"

DOES 100% BSE TESTING IMPLY FOOD SAFETY??? YES!

DOES 100% BSE TESTING INSURE FOOD SAFETY???? NO!

If 100% BSE TESTING DOES NOT INSURE FOOD SAFETY, THEN WHY THE HELL DO IT?????

The answer: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which is right up your deceptive alley.

Sand: "Where is the advertisement that is false?"

The implication that BSE TESTED means BSE FREE.

If BSE testing does not imply BSE safety, THEN THERE IS NO REASON TO DO IT.

Sand: They're just asking to test beef so they can say it has been tested PER JAPANESE LAW!"

They are sacrificing science based principle for financial gain by testing cattle less than 24 months of age when those tests won't reveal anything.

Sand: "On top of it, their beef would be placed next to other beef in Japan THAT SAYS THE SAME DANG THING!"

So what?

That doesn't change the fact that BSE testing of cattle less than 24 months of age won't reveal anything.

Sand: "Lastly, when has it been the USDA's job to rule on food IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY!"

USDA DID NOT RULE ON FOOD IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY.

USDA RULED ON FOOD WHILE IT WAS STILL IN THE U.S.

SAND: "Where is the deception?"

THAT BSE TESTED MEANS BSE FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sand: "Japanese law says the beef must be tested! IT'S THEIR FLIPPING LAW - THEY WROTE IT - THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE ASKING!"

The Japanese parliament has recently admitted that they have painted themselves into a corner on their position on 100% testing. They are now acknowledging the fact that 100% testing will reveal nothing in cattle under 24 months of age.

How can they know exactly what they are asking if their officials are not supporting the 100% testing of their beef.

You either stand on the best available science or you cater to every public perception that comes along that either supports you financial or political agenda. Your choice is obvious because you have no hesitation about being deceptive.

Sand: "How is the Japanese consumer's safety being compromised? It's Creekstone's economics? NCBA says it costs ALL of us $175/head!"

They are being compromised by the belief that 100% testing assures that the beef is BSE free.

I question NCBA's figures for the value of our export markets.

Sand: "The Canadian BSE shoe IS on our foot!"

Then why does R-CULT point to Canada as being the source of this problem?

Yet another conflicting argument.

Sand: "Do you have any idea what other countries are demanding of us before they take our product? HINT: IT'S MORE THAN WHAT THE USDA WANT'S TO ASK OF CANADA!"

That doesn't mean those demands are science based. There is no science to support 100% BSE testing of cattle less than 24 months of age. There is only $$$$$$$$$$$ support.

Sand: "The USDA knows that won't fly at all! They've pushed it far enough letting beef in. The AMI is used to getting it all and they're pressing the issue."

Wrong!

The AMI's lawsuit against USDA may not be supported politically, due to isolationists such as yourself, but it can be supported scientifically because the SRMs have been removed on cattle over 30 months.

The fact remains, AMI would not have filed suit against the USDA if the USDA was looking after AMI's pocket book as you claim.

Your argument has been shattered by the facts.

Sand: "BULL! There are a lot of countries with much more stringent BSE measures in place than Canada! Why weren't things changed for them?"

Having more stringent BSE measures that are "PERCEIVED" to create more safety does not mean they do create more safety.

100% BSE testing is a perfect example.

Whether these countries accept the protocols of the OIE or not doesn't change the fact that either those protocols are justified or they are not.

SH (previous): "If Leo says our firewalls are sufficient to insure the safety of our product in the event of another case of BSE, why wouldn't those same firewalls assure the safety of Canadian product?"

Sand (in response): "You mean the firewalls that the USDA has put in place but aren't enforcing?"

Oh, so now we are back to not having the safest beef in the world again.

If the firewalls Leo is referring to, do not assure the safety of our beef, then why would Leo suggest they do?

PICK A POSITION AND STICK WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quit flopping around like a fish in a boat.

Sand: "Would you care to make a bet on what England says about the cow the USDA said was BSE free?"

Speculation, conjecture, and conspiracy theories are your game, not mine.



~SH~

 

[Anonymous]

Sand: "The USDA is not doing the job assigned to them."

Oh, so we don't have the safest beef in the world.

Changed positions again huh?

Sand: "This BSE is nasty, nasty stuff and everything possible needs to be done to keep it out of here or eradicate it if we have it."

KEEP IT OUT OF HERE?????

What part of the Washington cow escapes your selective memory?

The USDA is doing everything it can to keep BSE out of here by the feed ban, increased surveilance, banning the slaughter of downer cows, and SRM removal not by banning Canadian cattle less than 30 months of age AFTER THE FACT.

Sand: "For the USDA to abandon set policy just so the AMI can trade is totally unacceptable - and there is no way one can say policy was not changed for the Canada situation."

Oh, so since we have had a case of BSE in the United States, Japan should not take our beef for the same period of time that you want to ban imports of Canadian cattle huh?

HYPOCRITE!

Sand: "Someone has to step up and yell "whoa"."

Someone has to step up and say, "this doesn't have a damn thing to do with food safety and has everything to do with stopping imports of Canadian live cattle" but it certainly won't be a deceiver like you, Bullard, or Leo.

Sand: "considering what is at stake here, wouldn't you expect an organization representing ranchers to raise a stink?"

Considering that being honest means opening the Canadian border to live cattle, of course I would expect you to try to create the illusion that the Canadian beef system is different than ours.

Sand: "The USDA went from a zero tolerance policy to one where they can't even define risk."

R-CALF went to a policy of USDA not caring about food safety and the large packer that process our beef not caring about food safety to having the safest beef in the world.


SINCE WE HAD BSE IN THE U.S., SHOULD JAPAN BAN OUR BEEF IMPORTS FOR THE SAME PERIOD OF TIME THAT YOU WANT TO BAN CANADIAN LIVE CATTLE IMPORTS???

Why not?

What's the difference?

Dance Sandman, Dance!

Sandy to Randy: "You think R-CALF is wrong for standing up to the USDA and you call them protectionist. You think the US should accept your product."

R-CALF is not standing up to the USDA, they are lying about the USDA and being deceptive about their precautionary measures.

We are accepting Canadian product. Where have you been?


Keep it comin' Sandman!

Nothing gives me a bigger thrill than burying your deceptive arguments.



~SH~

 

[Sandhusker]

Whatever, SH, whatever. :? :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

That's what my daughter says when she's treed too!



~SH~

 

[Maple Leaf Angus]

Sand: ".....your nonsense needs answering."

Your answers are the nonsense. ~SH~]

You guys are funny.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Sandhusker]

That's what my daughter says when she's treed too!



~SH~

I'm far from treed, SH. Like others before me, I've just learned when there is no progress to be made.

 

[Anonymous]

Sand: "Like others before me, I've just learned when there is no progress to be made."

No, what you are learning is that you don't bring a rusty dull jack knife to a gun fight and expect to impress anyone.


~SH~

 

[HAY MAKER]

There are two statues in a park; one of a nude man and one of a nude

woman. They had been facing each other across a pathway for a hundred

years, when one day an angel comes down from the sky and, with a

single gesture, brings the two to life.

The angel tells them, "As a reward for being so patient through a hundred

blazing summers and dismal winters, you have been given life for thirty

minutes to do what you've wished to do the most."

He looks at her, she looks at him, and they go running behind the

shrubbery.

The angel waits patiently as the bushes rustle and giggling ensues.

After fifteen minutes, the two return, out of breath and laughing.

The angel tells them, "Um, you have fifteen minutes left, "Would you care

to do it again?"

He asks her. "Shall we?"

She eagerly replies, "Oh, yes, let's! But let's change positions. This

time, I'll hold the pigeon down, and you ~SH~ on its head."

... AND WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ..............good luck