R-CALF USA Members Wins Injunction Against USDA’s BSE Rules

[Sandhusker]

:roll: SandH. maybe quote the entire thought instead of only a part "The USDA's initial BSE policy wasn't based on any kind of real science, just a knee jerk reaction. Once they smartened up, they issued policy changes based on science, not protectionism and fear mongering." :roll:
Maybe you should heed a little of your own advice.sandH
Cinch maybe you can answer these - why none of the other plainiffs in this case are listed on here ? what is being hidden ? is there a reason ? Why not file somewhere else in the US ? Would the outcome be different ? I read about the rule 2 comment period did not R-CALF know about this ?
You say the USDA must consider comments submitted. Will that change anything? You also said the judge made it hard to appeal this decision so does that mean it cuts both ways and if the outcome isn't what R-CALF wants they won't be abble to file more injunctions? You did forget to mention that the judge did not make r-calf post a bond for this action that is in my understanding is a requirement, but cited that r-calf was a non-profit so he gave an exemption. Are all the plainiffs non-profits?

Q, just do a little research and educate yourself a little on what the USDA did prior to establishing policy regarding importing from BSE countries. You're just making a fool of yourself claiming a 'knee-jerk" reaction.

 

[QUESTION]

Oh where to start? Rh you get torn up by my responses. really :cry2: that hurts my feelings sooo much :lol2:
SandH you seem to think i made the original post sorry to tell that i agree with what DSCC posted. Now you want to discuss the USDA importation rules prior to Canada finding a home grown positive. Ok why don't we talk about what DVM Masuo Doi , Dr. Karl Langheindrich and what they found in 1997. The videos are avalible from the USDA and the CBC, Yep 2 cows showing clinical signs and behavior of BSE yet their brains were not tested . Because the samples got lost :sure: :yeah: :wink: accidently. :roll:
Maybe you can move to egypt and go boating then you could be a king of denile,

 

[ranch hand]

Oh where to start? Rh you get torn up by my responses. really :cry2: that hurts my feelings sooo much :lol2:
SandH you seem to think i made the original post sorry to tell that i agree with what DSCC posted. Now you want to discuss the USDA importation rules prior to Canada finding a home grown positive. Ok why don't we talk about what DVM Masuo Doi , Dr. Karl Langheindrich and what they found in 1997. The videos are avalible from the USDA and the CBC, Yep 2 cows showing clinical signs and behavior of BSE yet their brains were not tested . Because the samples got lost :sure: :yeah: :wink: accidently. :roll:
Maybe you can move to egypt and go boating then you could be a king of denile,

Can't read either, I said tear me up. Tears of laughter.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

R-CALF initiates a lawsuit and you start flapping your lips about enriching the lawyers. Now you're telling me that they ought to get in more and even jump in front of private companies who are handling their own business?

Actually Sandhusker, that was my post, not Q's.

I do find it interesting that the only time that R-Calf releases their lawyers is when they're trying to close the border to Canadian beef. Why haven't they done more about strengthening your own firewalls? If you guys had a strong testing protocol and a more stringent feedban, then you wouldn't have to worry about Canadian beef at all. Start litigation, or even just lobby government. I haven't seen R-Calf say boo about your own firewalls for at least a year, if not more.

And why hasn't R-Calf done anything about the over-quota tariff-free SA beef coming into the US? That hurts everyone.

And yes I do believe that the USDA's initial reaction to Canada having found BSE was knee jerk and political posturing, with no real basis in science. Especially since the USDA knew doggoned well they'd already had a BSE positive animal that they covered up. Their reversal was based on real science.

I'm sorry if it ticks you off, Sandhusker, but I firmly believe that R-Calf is simply a protectionist outfit, period. When they start really going after the USDA over your own firewalls maybe I'll start to respect them. Until that happens, they'll always remain a protectionist duck in my eyes.

Rod

 

[Sandhusker]

Oh where to start? Rh you get torn up by my responses. really :cry2: that hurts my feelings sooo much :lol2:
SandH you seem to think i made the original post sorry to tell that i agree with what DSCC posted. Now you want to discuss the USDA importation rules prior to Canada finding a home grown positive. Ok why don't we talk about what DVM Masuo Doi , Dr. Karl Langheindrich and what they found in 1997. The videos are avalible from the USDA and the CBC, Yep 2 cows showing clinical signs and behavior of BSE yet their brains were not tested . Because the samples got lost :sure: :yeah: :wink: accidently. :roll:
Maybe you can move to egypt and go boating then you could be a king of denile,

Why don't you stay on topic and find out what led to the initial policy - that was followed 23 times without fail - being set? Knee-jerk reaction my ass.

 

[Sandhusker]

R-CALF initiates a lawsuit and you start flapping your lips about enriching the lawyers. Now you're telling me that they ought to get in more and even jump in front of private companies who are handling their own business?

Actually Sandhusker, that was my post, not Q's.

I do find it interesting that the only time that R-Calf releases their lawyers is when they're trying to close the border to Canadian beef. Why haven't they done more about strengthening your own firewalls? If you guys had a strong testing protocol and a more stringent feedban, then you wouldn't have to worry about Canadian beef at all. Start litigation, or even just lobby government. I haven't seen R-Calf say boo about your own firewalls for at least a year, if not more.

And why hasn't R-Calf done anything about the over-quota tariff-free SA beef coming into the US? That hurts everyone.

And yes I do believe that the USDA's initial reaction to Canada having found BSE was knee jerk and political posturing, with no real basis in science. Especially since the USDA knew doggoned well they'd already had a BSE positive animal that they covered up. Their reversal was based on real science.

I'm sorry if it ticks you off, Sandhusker, but I firmly believe that R-Calf is simply a protectionist outfit, period. When they start really going after the USDA over your own firewalls maybe I'll start to respect them. Until that happens, they'll always remain a protectionist duck in my eyes.

Rod

]

You don't get it, Rod. You and a host of other Canadians. R-CALF does want to straighten the USDA out on a number of subjects, but how many fronts can one group fight? This horsecrap that they pulled with Canada is the big one. If R-CALF can knock them off their perch on this one, a lot of the others get a whole lot easier.

How can you say their reaction to Canada was a knee jerk reaction? They consulted the "experts" on BSE, came up with a plan and said "This is what we are going to do and why we need to do it." Then, they followed that plan as 23 countries found BSE. Twenty-three consecutive times they followed announced policy without fail - until Canada found it. The only reason - the ONLY reason they back-tracked then was because of money. All of a sudden, a health policy was costing the wrong people a lot of money. For a cattleman's group to sit idly by while their members got sold out would be unexcusable.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

You don't get it, Rod. You and a host of other Canadians. R-CALF does want to straighten the USDA out on a number of subjects, but how many fronts can one group fight? This horsecrap that they pulled with Canada is the big one. If R-CALF can knock them off their perch on this one, a lot of the others get a whole lot easier.

As many as they have to. What now concerns me is that you (and RCalf) believe that the Canadian border being open is the biggest issue US Cattle producers face right now. There at least 3 other issues that I can think of that affect US cattle prices and the safety of your herd/consumers to a much greater degree.

How can you say their reaction to Canada was a knee jerk reaction? They consulted the "experts" on BSE, came up with a plan and said "This is what we are going to do and why we need to do it." Then, they followed that plan as 23 countries found BSE. Twenty-three consecutive times they followed announced policy without fail - until Canada found it. The only reason - the ONLY reason they back-tracked then was because of money. All of a sudden, a health policy was costing the wrong people a lot of money. For a cattleman's group to sit idly by while their members got sold out would be unexcusable.

I disagree with your assessment. Perhaps I was wrong to classify it as a knee jerk reaction, however the opening of the border wasn't based on economic reasons at the packer level. Packers were making a KILLING up here with the border closed. They were making more money from our piddly little Canadian slaughter as they had from the entire Can-Am market the 3 years prior to BSE.

The USDA opened the border to Canadian beef after we showed them that we had a plan to deal with BSE. The other 23 countries that you had closed your doors (and kept them closed) had 1 (or more) of 3 strikes showing against them:

1) Inadequate testing protocols. Or at least testing protocols that didn't match that of the US. When the border opened, Canada was testing 10 - 12 times the number of 4D animals that the US was. Since the US has reduced testing we're now testing close to 20x the number of 4D animals. This is on a per-capita basis.

2) Extremely high infection rates. At least 4 of those 23 countries showed infection rates of 30% or 40%. I don't blame the US for closing the border on that front. Its obvious that Canada's infection rates are much lower than that. During the height of our testing, we were testing 20% of our 4D animals. Certainly not as good as 100%, but if we had an extremely high rate of infection, it would have shown up.

3) No traceback. You can jump all over Canada's traceback system and I know it certainly isn't perfect, but its one of the best in the world as it sits today. There are private company traceback systems that are much better than ours, however there are no countries in the world where these traceback systems are a requirement.

Its time RCalf moved on to more important issues. Your own firewalls are insufficient, your own testing insufficient, your government happily drops tariffs on over-quota SA beef on a regular basis (beef purchased at MUCH lower prices than Canadian beef), and, probably most importantly, they're standing in the way of a private company doing something they should be allowed to do. Don't you think that any of these issues are much worse than allowing what amounts to a measly 3% of your total imports into your country?

Rod

 

[Sandhusker]

What do you think it the acceptable number of BSE cases to import into once's country per year?

If the packers were making so much money with a closed border, why were they screaming the loudest about getting it open?

I still don't think you get it, Rod. This is so much bigger than just Canada. This is about stopping the USDA's modus operandi of just doing what ever the hell they want with no reasoning and no accountability.

 

[Reggie]

Want to take the steam out of R-CALF's "standing" as a non-profit? Call for an IRS investigation of how it handles the finances. No audits; no general ledger accountability for each and every transaction; no public meeting minutes (unless you live in Billings) and board members who are muzzled by confidentiality agreements and oaths of loyalty.

For a time during the original border case the organization ceased to exist because the CEO didn't file corporate renewal applications with the Montana secretary of state. Had this been discovered the case could've been thrown out because the outfit misrepresented itself to the court.

R-CALF wants agencies to play by the rules yet the leadership doesn't want to play by the rules.

Exactly what did it cost producers to get this ruling that doesn't really accomplish anything other than one judge telling USDA they have to complete a do-over on the rule-making process? The border isn't closing. Beef and cattle are still being imported. WHAT DID IT COST?

Here in the U.S. we were denied a higher BSE classification by the OIE because we couldn't trace the Alabama cow's progreny. WHAT DID THAT COST????

 

[Anonymous]

Here in the U.S. we were denied a higher BSE classification by the OIE because we couldn't trace the Alabama cow's progreny. WHAT DID THAT COST????

And thats R-CALF's fault :???:
Alabamans didn't seem to have any problem hot iron branding people and tracking them for hundreds of years- its not R-CALF's fault they are too cheap and/or lazy to do that now with their cattle...

When the government/Administration begins acting outside or above the law- it is the job of all Americans to step forward and bring them to accountability- either thru Congress or the Courts...And for the last several years we've had a rubberstamp Congress- so the only answer has been the Courts...But the other accountability method "the ballot" is now changing that too- and I hope use of the Courts will be less necessary....

Our government... teaches the whole people by its example. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
Louis D. Brandeis, Supreme Court Justice

If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
Louis D. Brandeis

To declare that the end justifies the means, to declare that the government may commit crimes, would bring terrible retribution.
Louis D. Brandeis

 

[Reggie]

So, non-brand areas and states are cheap and lazy? What if that Alabama cow had been discovered in eastern South Dakota? Would your view be the same?

 

[Anonymous]

So, non-brand areas and states are cheap and lazy? What if that Alabama cow had been discovered in eastern South Dakota? Would your view be the same?

Yep- Sad day when Montanans running IDed (branded) cattle in eastern S.D. have to take a Montana Brand Inspector to inspect/tally their cattle before they move them out- but I know it has been done....
But if thats what folks in that part of the state want fine...They have the same ability to utilize or establish an ID system...It should be left to the producers of the state whether they want to establish an ID system, what type they want, and how/who to operate it......

The last thing we need is the federal government coming in shoving another federal mandate down producers throats- and mandating a system while creating another huge federal bureaucracy to run it...

The $millions of taxpayer dollars spent by USDA/NCBA/AAA/etal trying to make a "voluntary" federal mandate--that should be market driven instead is a travesty already....

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) What do you think it the acceptable number of BSE cases to import into once's country per year?

2) If the packers were making so much money with a closed border, why were they screaming the loudest about getting it open?

3) I still don't think you get it, Rod. This is so much bigger than just Canada. This is about stopping the USDA's modus operandi of just doing what ever the hell they want with no reasoning and no accountability.

1) With the amount of beef trade between our two countries, I figure we're probably importing just as many cases as we're exporting. So its a wash.

2) I think the US packers were paying lip service to an open border, mainly because of the screams of protest from Canadian producers about packers gouging us. Did you notice that the border opening was met with surprise in both the US and Canada and the packers had to scramble to adjust? In a world where they really wanted and expected the border to open, they would have been ready for it.

3) I do get it Sandhusker. The USDA could have been brought to task on other issues of more importance. I'd think that the firewalls/testing issues, as an example, would be much more likely to i) force the USDA to appropriately protect the US cattle producer, ii) help open your export markets, and iii) bring the USDA to task on its shortcomings and its obvious packer influenced policies.

Instead R-Calf chose what is probably the least important concern to US cattle producers, and instead of even remotely accomplishing their "primary goal" of getting the USDA to listen, only drove a wedge between Canadian and American producers. The only people that RCalf helped were the packers. So not only did RCalf spend a whack of money and time, they forced Canadian cattle producers to do the same, money that could have/should have went elsewhere, like finding other export markets or forcing our own government to allowing testing.

So no, I don't buy that RCalf was only interested in bringing the USDA to task over its policies. I think the powers that be in RCalf are anti-Canadian and protectionist against Canadian beef and that the USDA stuff is only a cover for their true intent.

Rod

 

[QUESTION]

:agree:

 

[QUESTION]

I finished baling late last night what i had cut and it has been raining since then so i have time to be on here . Afterall i have to keep my animals fed this winter i make my living from cattle even with all this crap.
What has this ruling done to close the border - nothing, will the USDA have to do it NO. They will have to have a second comment period on rule 2 and listen to concerns of special interest groups and clearly explain why they are going to keep the border open.
What did it do? Well for one it cost R-CALF membership thousands of dollars and let the executive justify the wages. It made more lawyers happy afterall does anyone think R-CALF et al. actually think that the USDA will close the border IF they are so controlled by the packers? Cattle price for OTM Canadian cattle sunk 10 CWT, but is that because of the Canada day holiday the slowest week of the year for the auction yards or the court action. But by all means keep on going after a target that is going to raise prices of US cattle, oh wait the cattle for the grind market for the summer burger market are already stock piled funny how R-CALF waited so there would be little or no effect on the packers for this market. Let's see what it could do cut out those huge numbers of cows and bulls going south all 3% of the US grind market. :roll: IF R-CALF executives really had anything the border would have been closed. Let's see what else this injuction could mean for the US - less cows in the kill plants means less work and less people working in the processing plants means less money going out to the communities that have packing plant. Yeah that is a good thing. Afterall your ecomony going so well. You people have to realize that you can only block so much foreign beef in the grind market as you have a deficte in this market because you want to sell into high return export markets like asian markets and canada. Get rid of canadian beef someone else will take that market share. So it will not drive up your prices not that peole could afford it. So just thinking in simple supply and demand terms if beef prices get too high for the comsumer they will switch to another protein sorce. Maybe this will be moot, if the USDA is pushed hard enough they will just go out and find more indeginous cases afterall the seem to be ables to misplace samples maybe they will turn up afterall.

 

[WHITEHAWK]

1) What do you think it the acceptable number of BSE cases to import into once's country per year?

2) If the packers were making so much money with a closed border, why were they screaming the loudest about getting it open?

3) I still don't think you get it, Rod. This is so much bigger than just Canada. This is about stopping the USDA's modus operandi of just doing what ever the hell they want with no reasoning and no accountability.

1) With the amount of beef trade between our two countries, I figure we're probably importing just as many cases as we're exporting. So its a wash.

2) I think the US packers were paying lip service to an open border, mainly because of the screams of protest from Canadian producers about packers gouging us. Did you notice that the border opening was met with surprise in both the US and Canada and the packers had to scramble to adjust? In a world where they really wanted and expected the border to open, they would have been ready for it.

3) I do get it Sandhusker. The USDA could have been brought to task on other issues of more importance. I'd think that the firewalls/testing issues, as an example, would be much more likely to i) force the USDA to appropriately protect the US cattle producer, ii) help open your export markets, and iii) bring the USDA to task on its shortcomings and its obvious packer influenced policies.

Instead R-Calf chose what is probably the least important concern to US cattle producers, and instead of even remotely accomplishing their "primary goal" of getting the USDA to listen, only drove a wedge between Canadian and American producers. The only people that RCalf helped were the packers. So not only did RCalf spend a whack of money and time, they forced Canadian cattle producers to do the same, money that could have/should have went elsewhere, like finding other export markets or forcing our own government to allowing testing.

So no, I don't buy that RCalf was only interested in bringing the USDA to task over its policies. I think the powers that be in RCalf are anti-Canadian and protectionist against

Canadian beef and that the USDA stuff is only a cover for their true intent.

Rod

Kinda reminds me of all the games canucks played,now the tables turned and you yowlin packer partnerin canucks got your ass in the air,for many years you canucks partnered with packers at the demise of alot of good cattle men south of your border,now the packers have shown you just what kinda partner you are you wanna latch on to your neighbors to the south

 

[Sandhusker]

1) What do you think it the acceptable number of BSE cases to import into once's country per year?

2) If the packers were making so much money with a closed border, why were they screaming the loudest about getting it open?

3) I still don't think you get it, Rod. This is so much bigger than just Canada. This is about stopping the USDA's modus operandi of just doing what ever the hell they want with no reasoning and no accountability.

1) With the amount of beef trade between our two countries, I figure we're probably importing just as many cases as we're exporting. So its a wash.

2) I think the US packers were paying lip service to an open border, mainly because of the screams of protest from Canadian producers about packers gouging us. Did you notice that the border opening was met with surprise in both the US and Canada and the packers had to scramble to adjust? In a world where they really wanted and expected the border to open, they would have been ready for it.

3) I do get it Sandhusker. The USDA could have been brought to task on other issues of more importance. I'd think that the firewalls/testing issues, as an example, would be much more likely to i) force the USDA to appropriately protect the US cattle producer, ii) help open your export markets, and iii) bring the USDA to task on its shortcomings and its obvious packer influenced policies.

Instead R-Calf chose what is probably the least important concern to US cattle producers, and instead of even remotely accomplishing their "primary goal" of getting the USDA to listen, only drove a wedge between Canadian and American producers. The only people that RCalf helped were the packers. So not only did RCalf spend a whack of money and time, they forced Canadian cattle producers to do the same, money that could have/should have went elsewhere, like finding other export markets or forcing our own government to allowing testing.

So no, I don't buy that RCalf was only interested in bringing the USDA to task over its policies. I think the powers that be in RCalf are anti-Canadian and protectionist against Canadian beef and that the USDA stuff is only a cover for their true intent.

Rod

1) You didn't answer my first question. I'm looking for a number.

2) I didn't notice they were surprised, but if they were, I would assume it was because even they didn't think the USDA could get away with how thick they were spreading it. The reasons the USDA used in opening the border were all jaw-droppers. There was no reason, no logic, and plenty of BS.

3) I don't see any bigger than this. First of all, what other issue has a list that can match what I presented the last page? No other issue has anywhere close to the complete display of unaccptable nonsense that went on. You Canadians blast R-CALF for standing up against that only because you're caught in the middle, and I still don't understand why US producers have to take a bullet for you guys.

Secondly, we HAVE to get the USDA broke on the way they handle trade issues because look at who's on deck - South America.

 

[QUESTION]

Will you guys make up your minds. First some say canadians are so small they can only ride the shirt tails of the US, then someone else says how the big bad canadians drove US producers out of business. So which is it ? Face it canadian cattle trade is an easy target. You guys say this will set a precedent for the USDA concerning the wave of south american imports - really :???: . So how many south american cows do you expect to be coming into your country live ?

 

[Kato]

1) You didn't answer my first question. I'm looking for a number.

That question could go two ways. We also import beef from the U.S. At the present time our governments have both agreed that slaughter protocols involving removal of SRM's make it a moot point.

 

[Sandhusker]

1) You didn't answer my first question. I'm looking for a number.

That question could go two ways. We also import beef from the U.S. At the present time our governments have both agreed that slaughter protocols involving removal of SRM's make it a moot point.

Because they agree on something doesn't make it true. Would you knowingly feed your family beef from a BSE positive animal that had SRMs removed? That question sure shuts MRJ up.