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Rancher Value

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
For the Angus industry as a whole I'm not sure EPD's haven't caused as many problems as they solved-one thing you sure don't need to send kids to ag. school now. If they passed basic math and can add two numbers together they can become a master breeder!!! Breeders that raised good cattle before are still doing it and breeders who raised crappy cattle still are but now they have good numbers.
 
Northern Rancher said:
For the Angus industry as a whole I'm not sure EPD's haven't caused as many problems as they solved-one thing you sure don't need to send kids to ag. school now. If they passed basic math and can add two numbers together they can become a master breeder!!! Breeders that raised good cattle before are still doing it and breeders who raised crappy cattle still are but now they have good numbers.
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Then are you saying there are no good cattle with good numbers. Of course what are good numbers to one person may not be good numbers to another. It depends on your environment and what you are trying to achieve.
 
No your saying that-there are good cattle with good numbers but there are way too many unsound-subfertile pieces of crap marketed to the high heaven on numbers alone. Side poses of a overfat photoshopped bull don't do much for me either. The game most play is promote and market a bull to hell and gone as a youngster by the time the industry finds out his sons can't walk and his daughters are welfare cases you've made your money. Jim Leachman was a master at it and quite a few more have picked up on his cue.
 
I find it counter productive that weaning weights are allowed to be submitted on crept fed calves-are we analyzing milk production or appetite for grain or is there a subtraction for the fact they are crept fed. I realize weaning indexes are just within herd. Creep feeding has it's merits on a droughted out pasture or for fall calves in the winter-creep feeding a calf from a plus twenty milk cow on good pasture goes beyond ridiculous. Your really make the cow redundant in such a situation. I guess I'll buy into some of the B'S when somebody can show me it actually does the cattle any good.
 
Northern Rancher said:
I realize weaning indexes are just within herd.
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Shouldn't that fact alone take care of the feed issue? Within herd and same environment comparisons will then show which calves grew more than the others? Maybe I'm not seeing the obvious...

HP
 
I have been holding back commenting on the discussions of the moderation of cow size, $EN values and grass fed topics. I have very mixed feelings about both sides. I had been concerned about my cow sizes and made purchase of seed stock from these grass fed angus beef breeders. My cow size is coming down and so are my weaning weights.
I am not convinced either way. I am not sure there is enough savings in decreased feed consumption to offset the loss in weight and dollars. I have purchased bred heifers from 2 seperate grass fed Angus seedstock producers. The calves from these heifers averaged 150 to 200 lbs. less than the rest of my calves in each respective year.

As far as the "rancher's value", you should use the $EN value of the cow you will breeding. If you have a larger framed cow with a -10 $en and your sire has a $W of +28 thus you get a "Ranchers Value" of +18. (Ouch)

It has been a painfully costly move to breed larger cows to smaller framed sires.

Now that I said all of that. I still like the idea of moderate framed cow that keeps her condition. But then use a sire of a different breed or growth bull on these cows. Rancher Value: Cow $EN +10, Sire $W +60 = +70 This sounds much better.

Next discussion? $EN +10 cow + $EN +10 Sire = +0 $F value.
 
Horseless said:
I have been holding back commenting on the discussions of the moderation of cow size, $EN values and grass fed topics. I have very mixed feelings about both sides. I had been concerned about my cow sizes and made purchase of seed stock from these grass fed angus beef breeders. My cow size is coming down and so are my weaning weights.
I am not convinced either way. I am not sure there is enough savings in decreased feed consumption to offset the loss in weight and dollars. I have purchased bred heifers from 2 seperate grass fed Angus seedstock producers. The calves from these heifers averaged 150 to 200 lbs. less than the rest of my calves in each respective year.

As far as the "rancher's value", you should use the $EN value of the cow you will breeding. If you have a larger framed cow with a -10 $en and your sire has a $W of +28 thus you get a "Ranchers Value" of +18. (Ouch)

It has been a painfully costly move to breed larger cows to smaller framed sires.

Now that I said all of that. I still like the idea of moderate framed cow that keeps her condition. But then use a sire of a different breed or growth bull on these cows. Rancher Value: Cow $EN +10, Sire $W +60 = +70 This sounds much better.

Next discussion? $EN +10 cow + $EN +10 Sire = +0 $F value.
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What frame size cows are you down sizing with what frame size bulls?
 
Can't say that I have frame scored all the cows, but average weight was about 1,450 lbs with average body score about a 5. Sires and heifers from "Grass fed" Angus seedstock operation about a frame of 5.
Now I am just using enough moderate framed sires on some of the better moderate framed cows to keep some replacements (separate breeding pastures.) The rest of the bunch have pushed a little more growth to keep up the weaning weights.
 
Trying to downsize cows can be tough because they darn sure didn't get too big in one generation. Trying to fix a problem in one generation, especially using unproven bulls natural service can be real hit and miss.
 
Angus 62: Good point, most all of these larger cows took a few generations to create. That is why it is important to select replacements from your smaller to more moderate cows. Trying to do it all on the sire side is really difficult.

I really don't think you need dollar indexes if you know what it is taking to keep your cows in decent shape. Propably not bad to use them for a reference when selecting new seedstock but not a must in my opinion.
 
Horseless said:
Can't say that I have frame scored all the cows, but average weight was about 1,450 lbs with average body score about a 5. Sires and heifers from "Grass fed" Angus seedstock operation about a frame of 5.
Now I am just using enough moderate framed sires on some of the better moderate framed cows to keep some replacements (separate breeding pastures.) The rest of the bunch have pushed a little more growth to keep up the weaning weights.
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Angus 62 is right about substantial one generation frame change being difficult to achieve, yet it doesn't seem as difficult to loose performance. From what you have said it sounds like your dissatisfaction is with the reduced performance of the "grass fed type". It may be that you need to find some "grass fed" type that will reduce your frame without sacrificing as much performance. We have been grass testing, forage developing our bulls since our 1992 calf crop. In our experience developing and selecting for forage adapted cattle does not automatically mean selection for significantly reduced performance that you are relating. There are plenty of cattle that are in that frame 4 and 5 range that can still grow.

As far as quantifying feed savings with the moderate sized cattle compared to your bigger cows that is very hard to do.
 
I agree with a lot of the above. If you select just for frame/mature size you may lose performance, but you don't have to. If you are selling all the calves I like the idea of a larger, exotic type bull. You can still have smaller cows and add the jam and frame into the feeder calves.
I think there can/could be huge savings in feed costs. 1/2 the feed in any steak you eat went to maintain the cow behind the calf that produced it. The challenge is that if you feed 200 bales and improve efficiency of your cows 10% you are not likely to feed only 180 or run 10% more cows. You will likely run the same number of cows and feed the same, thus not realizing the full cost benefit of a more feed efficient cow. (when I say you I really mostly mean I :lol: )
Performance always generates cash flow, but it is never free. When and how much should probably be determined by the individual cost of adding performance. I think back in an econ class I heard of the law of diminishing returns.
 
It's easy to get too "technical." Anyone that has a herd of cattle should be able to visually look at the cows and figure out which ones are doing a good job and which ones aren't. Cull the bad ones, and keep the rest. Don't get bogged down with dinky details. If a cow has a pretty fair calf, and if she is pregnant and has all of her teeth, she is probably worth keeping for another year. Buy the best bulls you can afford to buy, but don't get carried away. If a bull that you like is getting too expensive, let someone else have it. There are lots of fishies in the pond, so to speak, and there are always other quite adequate bulls to be had. Biggest is not necessarily best, but don't go for small frame size, either. It is very hard to go wrong just staying in the middle of the road.

Uniformity doesn't mean much for taste, or matter much if you operate from conception to consumption. Uniformity, however, does matter a great deal if you market feeder cattle. Stay with breeds that are saleable. Often some offbreed critter works well on an individual basis, but gets knocked badly in a bunch.

Disposition is important, and quiet cattle are worth more to both ranchers and feeders. If your cowboys are too wild, cull them. There are always good quiet hands looking for work.

"Moderation in all things" is a good rule to go by, but other than that try to stay away from too many rules. Be adaptable, and be ready to roll with the punches. Each day brings new and different challenges. With that, I will get off my soapweedy box. :wink:
 
Soapweed said:
It's easy to get too "technical." Anyone that has a herd of cattle should be able to visually look at the cows and figure out which ones are doing a good job and which ones aren't. Cull the bad ones, and keep the rest. Don't get bogged down with dinky details. If a cow has a pretty fair calf, and if she is pregnant and has all of her teeth, she is probably worth keeping for another year. Buy the best bulls you can afford to buy, but don't get carried away. If a bull that you like is getting too expensive, let someone else have it. There are lots of fishies in the pond, so to speak, and there are always other quite adequate bulls to be had. Biggest is not necessarily best, but don't go for small frame size, either. It is very hard to go wrong just staying in the middle of the road.

Uniformity doesn't mean much for taste, or matter much if you operate from conception to consumption. Uniformity, however, does matter a great deal if you market feeder cattle. Stay with breeds that are saleable. Often some offbreed critter works well on an individual basis, but gets knocked badly in a bunch.

Disposition is important, and quiet cattle are worth more to both ranchers and feeders. If your cowboys are too wild, cull them. There are always good quiet hands looking for work.

"Moderation in all things" is a good rule to go by, but other than that try to stay away from too many rules. Be adaptable, and be ready to roll with the punches. Each day brings new and different challenges. With that, I will get off my soapweedy box. :wink:
Click to expand...

Good post Soapweed. Uniformity in colour is a workin' progress here, we're getting close on the type. :wink:
 
Thanks Soapweed, you put into words much better than I ever could, but your method is the one we've been using here for many decades and time seems to be proving your points to be correct.
 
Another thanks Soapweed, so ture.

So many differnet numbers comming at people now not many really understand any of it or what they all are for. However there will always be the people that know ALL the Answers. Now with Pfizer HD 50K DNA in the pot also. will ad to some threads soon.

Virgin bulls and heifers are starting to look like gold. and maybe gold before long.
 
Chances are when this market does turn, a lot of the details people are now paying attention to, in an effort to find a dollar, won't seem so important.
 

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