Re. discussions of "science"

[mrj]

From A scientist, Gary Weber, "it's important to note that research using laboratory models, laboratory animals and Scrapie related prions can not be assumed to illustrate what actually happens in the real world, in cattle, with the disease BSE. We know that BSE behaves very differently than the disease Scrapie or the disease CWD. Until confirmed to apply to BSE, one cannot automatically say it is relevant to the BSE situation. In most cases it is not."

Hope this is helpful in understanding why we cannot get verifiable results and answers on the TSE diseases as quickly as we would like.

MRJ

 

[Anonymous]

From A scientist, Gary Weber, "it's important to note that research using laboratory models, laboratory animals and Scrapie related prions can not be assumed to illustrate what actually happens in the real world, in cattle, with the disease BSE. We know that BSE behaves very differently than the disease Scrapie or the disease CWD. Until confirmed to apply to BSE, one cannot automatically say it is relevant to the BSE situation. In most cases it is not."

Hope this is helpful in understanding why we cannot get verifiable results and answers on the TSE diseases as quickly as we would like.

MRJ

In other words "we don't know"....There apparently is evidence both ways-theories supporting both presence and nonpresence of prions in muscle meats, organs and some tissues which are not now being removed from Canadian cattle- theories showing many different means of transmission and questions about transmission to humans.... Way too many questions and theories ---when dealing with human health its always been my opinion to err on the side of caution........

 

[the chief]

Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of facts is not necessarily science.
Henri Poincare (1854 - 1912)

 

[Mike]

Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of facts is not necessarily science.
Henri Poincare (1854 - 1912)

Hey chief, your buddy "Henri" might have been a slaveholder making him incapable of a statement with relevance today! :wink:

Common sense usually rules the day. Thanks!

 

[the chief]

Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of facts is not necessarily science.
Henri Poincare (1854 - 1912)

Hey chief, your buddy "Henri" might have been a slaveholder making him incapable of a statement with relevance today! :wink:

Common sense usually rules the day. Thanks!

Thank YOU! I like these two quotes as well as they could apply to recent news in the cattle industry

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:209, Papers 1:134

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.



Too Bad they come from a SLAVEOWNER :wink:

 

[mrj]

Dr. Gary Weber, PhD, Executive Director, Regulatory Affairs, National Cattlemen's Beef Association
Gary Weber is the Executive Director for Regulatory Affairs for the National Cattlemen's Beef Association (NCBA) in Washington, D.C. He is also
the Staff Director for NCBA's Cattle Health and Well Being Committee. Weber works with regulatory agencies and Congress on public-policy issues
pertaining to meat inspection and animal health. Since joining NCBA in August, 1994, Weber has worked on meat-inspection reform, beef safety, BSE
prevention, regionalization regulations, animal-drug avail ability, and the research titles of the Farm Bill.
From 1987 until 1994, Weber served as the National Program Leader for Animal Science for the Extension Service-USDA in Washington, D.C.
Prior to that he served as an Area Livestock Specialist and Adjunct Assistant Professor at the Michigan State University Cooperative Extension
Service and the Department of Animal Science. Weber has worked closely with food and animal scientists to publish several papers pertaining to
the role of scientists in helping the public make informed decisions. He is a member of the American Society of Animal Science, Sigma Xi, Gamma
Sigma Delta, The American Registry of Professional Animal Scientists (ARPAS) and is a Charter Diplomate in the American College of Animal
Nutrition. He recently accepted an invitation to serve as an adjunct fellow with the Georgetown University Center for Food and Nutrition Policy. Weber
has a B.S. and M.S. degrees in Animal Science from Purdue University and a Ph.D. in Animal Science from Michigan State University.


Good credentials and definitely scientific training but not a research scientist in TSEs -- these are pathologists, biologists, Ph.D. - M.D.s, biochemists, and research DVMs. Just for the purpose of full disclosure.

{reader, thank you for posting Dr. Gary Webers' list of credentials. I was not aware of the extent of the list.

Are you saying that while he may be a "scientist" we need not respect him when he explains why we can't currently get verifiable results and answers on the TSE diseases as quickly as we would like" because he only has scientific training and is "not a research scientist in TSE's?

MRJ}

 

[Anonymous]

Dr. Gary Weber, PhD, Executive Director, Regulatory Affairs, National Cattlemen's Beef Association
Gary Weber is the Executive Director for Regulatory Affairs for the National Cattlemen's Beef Association (NCBA) in Washington, D.C. He is also
the Staff Director for NCBA's Cattle Health and Well Being Committee. Weber works with regulatory agencies and Congress on public-policy issues
pertaining to meat inspection and animal health. Since joining NCBA in August, 1994, Weber has worked on meat-inspection reform, beef safety, BSE
prevention, regionalization regulations, animal-drug avail ability, and the research titles of the Farm Bill.
From 1987 until 1994, Weber served as the National Program Leader for Animal Science for the Extension Service-USDA in Washington, D.C.
Prior to that he served as an Area Livestock Specialist and Adjunct Assistant Professor at the Michigan State University Cooperative Extension
Service and the Department of Animal Science. Weber has worked closely with food and animal scientists to publish several papers pertaining to
the role of scientists in helping the public make informed decisions. He is a member of the American Society of Animal Science, Sigma Xi, Gamma
Sigma Delta, The American Registry of Professional Animal Scientists (ARPAS) and is a Charter Diplomate in the American College of Animal
Nutrition. He recently accepted an invitation to serve as an adjunct fellow with the Georgetown University Center for Food and Nutrition Policy. Weber
has a B.S. and M.S. degrees in Animal Science from Purdue University and a Ph.D. in Animal Science from Michigan State University.


Good credentials and definitely scientific training but not a research scientist in TSEs -- these are pathologists, biologists, Ph.D. - M.D.s, biochemists, and research DVMs. Just for the purpose of full disclosure.

{reader, thank you for posting Dr. Gary Webers' list of credentials. I was not aware of the extent of the list.

Are you saying that while he may be a "scientist" we need not respect him when he explains why we can't currently get verifiable results and answers on the TSE diseases as quickly as we would like" because he only has scientific training and is "not a research scientist in TSE's?

MRJ}

Main problem is he is a "bought and paid for scientist"-- He will say nothing that takes the bread off his families table or the new SUV out of his garge....

 

[Silver]

Another one of your broad assumptions OT. Sounds about as intelligent as a "bought and paid for judge".

 

[Anonymous]

Another one of your broad assumptions OT. Sounds about as intelligent as a "bought and paid for judge".

The judges salary is for life-- whatever way he rules... The NCBA employee will probably be kicking his lunchcan down the road if he advocates against his NCBA and USDA employers........

 

[Silver]

Another one of your broad assumptions OT. Sounds about as intelligent as a "bought and paid for judge".

The judges salary is for life-- whatever way he rules... The NCBA employee will probably be kicking his lunchcan down the road if he advocates against his NCBA and USDA employers........

Based on that logic we can't believe an employee of the NCBA, USDA, or R-CALF. I guess Cebull is the only one that knows, because he's already been bought and paid for for life. :roll:

 

[mrj]

Dr. Gary Weber, PhD, Executive Director, Regulatory Affairs, National Cattlemen's Beef Association
Gary Weber is the Executive Director for Regulatory Affairs for the National Cattlemen's Beef Association (NCBA) in Washington, D.C. He is also
the Staff Director for NCBA's Cattle Health and Well Being Committee. Weber works with regulatory agencies and Congress on public-policy issues
pertaining to meat inspection and animal health. Since joining NCBA in August, 1994, Weber has worked on meat-inspection reform, beef safety, BSE
prevention, regionalization regulations, animal-drug avail ability, and the research titles of the Farm Bill.
From 1987 until 1994, Weber served as the National Program Leader for Animal Science for the Extension Service-USDA in Washington, D.C.
Prior to that he served as an Area Livestock Specialist and Adjunct Assistant Professor at the Michigan State University Cooperative Extension
Service and the Department of Animal Science. Weber has worked closely with food and animal scientists to publish several papers pertaining to
the role of scientists in helping the public make informed decisions. He is a member of the American Society of Animal Science, Sigma Xi, Gamma
Sigma Delta, The American Registry of Professional Animal Scientists (ARPAS) and is a Charter Diplomate in the American College of Animal
Nutrition. He recently accepted an invitation to serve as an adjunct fellow with the Georgetown University Center for Food and Nutrition Policy. Weber
has a B.S. and M.S. degrees in Animal Science from Purdue University and a Ph.D. in Animal Science from Michigan State University.


Good credentials and definitely scientific training but not a research scientist in TSEs -- these are pathologists, biologists, Ph.D. - M.D.s, biochemists, and research DVMs. Just for the purpose of full disclosure.

{reader, thank you for posting Dr. Gary Webers' list of credentials. I was not aware of the extent of the list.

Are you saying that while he may be a "scientist" we need not respect him when he explains why we can't currently get verifiable results and answers on the TSE diseases as quickly as we would like" because he only has scientific training and is "not a research scientist in TSE's?

MRJ}

Main problem is he is a "bought and paid for scientist"-- He will say nothing that takes the bread off his families table or the new SUV out of his garge....

{Having spent some time visiting with him over many years, I'm very sure that Dr. Weber is no high living guy, and he is dedicated to accuracy and honesty. And how do the "scientists" you think we should trust earn their silk suits and "beamers"? MRJ}

 

[agman]

Main problem is he is a "bought and paid for scientist"-- He will say nothing that takes the bread off his families table or the new SUV out of his garge....

This is your typical remark OT. Again you have no facts just plain OLD foolish aassumptions and accusations. Who pays you to put out such foolish remarks? I know, no one does. No one else is that foolish.

 

[agman]

MRJ - Here's an example of a "scientist" who one should respect when he provides scientifically based information on TSEs. Notice the prizes, leadership positions in international scientific institutions, publications, peer reviewed and funded research over many years, etc.

A Ph.D. in a "science" does not make one a "scientist", well not a world renowed expert and scientific leader in a field.

++++++++++++++++++++

While your statement has some merit it also has some pitfalls. Taken as stated, if you do not have those credentials are you ignorant of FACT? No one can know everything. However, smart and successful propel know how to access expertise. While Dr Weber may not be a scientist by strict definition I am willing to bet he has access to the best research minds per this subject. On a scale of 1-10 I believe it is a fair bet that he can access people at a level of 10 as opposed to you who most likely has limited personal access with as many or as qualified experts in this field. I have made the latter statement with all due respect for your efforts and views per this subject.

 

[agman]

Do you believe that Dr Weber does not have access to those same individuals and organizations that you cite?

 

[agman]

I actually doubt it, truthfully. He would be focused on USDA and BSE and possibly on BSE testing / research. I doubt sincerely with his job description and training that he has branched out to TSEs in general. IMO.

April 2005 annual meeting ( Minneapolis, MN)- National Institute for Animal Agriculture brought together two to the world's experts on BSE, Dr Will Heuston of the Center for Animal Health and Food Safety at the University of Minnesota and Brian Evans, Chief Veterinary Officer of Canada and with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

Dr Will Heuston - "Research has shown that no evidence to date exists that the BSE agent is found in cattle muscle." You wanted a name so I supplied one. This position was also taken by OIE scientists. If I can find that article which I read I will l post their comment also per this matter.
I hope you have not included me in those whom you assume just pull comment out of the "thin air". I truly admire the passion and energy you put forth on this subject. Have a great day and a safe weekend.

 

[agman]

I actually doubt it, truthfully. He would be focused on USDA and BSE and possibly on BSE testing / research. I doubt sincerely with his job description and training that he has branched out to TSEs in general. IMO.

April 2005 annual meeting ( Minneapolis, MN)- National Institute for Animal Agriculture brought together two to the world's experts on BSE, Dr Will Heuston of the Center for Animal Health and Food Safety at the University of Minnesota and Brian Evans, Chief Veterinary Officer of Canada and with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

Dr Will Heuston - "Research has shown that no evidence to date exists that the BSE agent is found in cattle muscle." You wanted a name so I supplied one. This position was also taken by OIE scientists. If I can find that article which I read I will l post their comment also per this matter.
I hope you have not included me in those whom you assume just pull comment out of the "thin air". I truly admire the passion and energy you put forth on this subject. Have a great day and a safe weekend.

I respect Will Hueston a lot. He was on the International committee that Venneman convened and I find quotes from him in articles careful and actually science based. I like the fact that he says "no evidence to date," versus those who don't understand that there's a lot we don't understand.


Response..I do agree with you that there is much more to be learned, I never said there wasn't. That is why I am careful about what I am willling to engage per this subject. On the other-hand, if we all stood still because of the unknown or what could possibly happen, even though it may have a very low probability, we would soon go the way of the dinosaur. All of these issues present challenges that need to and will be met. Have a safe weekend.

P.S. You might educate Sandhusker about my so called "unnamed" sources. I am certain he will try to skirt the facts by attempting to focus on one isolated word to detract from his glaring lack of knowledge.

 

[Bill]

I'm still eating beef, despite traces of prion in muscle in Aguzzi's study. Admittedly these were mice not cattle. If there are prions in blood however (witness vCJD transmission via blood), there are prions in muscle meat. The real question is -- are there enough to transmit the disease? I have chosen on the basis of the numbers to think "no".

We'll know more over the next few years.

We need to take adequate precautions, based on what we know and what the UK has learned. My opinion which is as informed as any here and based on EU practice is that we should extend SRM definition for cattle UTM to include tonsils, eyes, brain, spinal cord. I am comfortable with 20 months and above because I think calves get BSE and incubate for ~ 3 - 6 years. The UK experts believe that they are infectious in the last year at least.

Testing and SRM removal (to include spinal cord etc.) is sensible. I admit that if we don't find BSE in either country for 3 years or very low levels, we can reduce testing.

Seeing your the expert here. Are the cases of vCJD increasing or declining in the UK and why?

 

[rkaiser]

:lol: Sorry Bill but that made me laugh. Reader(the second) and expert on CJD - HA. Reader (the second), full time supporter of the conventional BS theory of BSE and expert poster of every bit of BSE BS she can get her hands on.

All of the thousands of words posted by this woman who fells she is educating the masses have still shown NO PROOF of BSE infectitvity.

Lots of questions, like Oldtimer says, (and tends to use when he swings into scientific mode), but no bloody proof.

If anyone person spent half the time researching metal contamination as Reader does researching every possible BS story about the fear we need to have concerning BSE, we would have been out of this mess months, or maybe years ago.

 

[Bill]

Yawn.

Are the cases of vCJD increasing or declining in the UK and why?

 

[Silver]

GB had 82 cases in 2004, 173 in 2003, 445 in 2002, 781 in 2002, 1311 in 2001, you get the picture. Either they are getting immune to it or the feed ban is working. Safe money goes with the feed ban. Which leads me to believe we will be seeing the end of it here shortly, at least back to historic, natural levels (whatever they are, know one will ever know). But that's just IMHO. Seems fairly logical though.