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READ-the real hurt of R-calf's greed.

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Murgen

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Dalek

Do I know you - or of you? Seems I might.

Was this the Tom Van Dusen article? Hope I spelled his name right. Or is this one written by wife and fellow board members? So many media folks!! Wife had been on radio, in print and quoted on the telly far more often than I.

I have not seen the article - if indeed it is from this place. As the poster child for broke Ontario beef operations, we are always on the phone to some reporter. Lat night it was the Ottawa Sun for over half an hour. She really wanted to know how many animals we had. Had to laugh because I said when - now or before? We have sold all the cattle that do not live on this place and trimmed here - far cry from before. We are now officially down to about 56 head total - give or take - including yearlings and bull - and I suppose that makes us hobbyists now. Far cry from the old days. I am not sure she got the story right, but she is trying - hafta' give her credit for that.

Basically the returns from our investment would have been better if we had invested 300K in the stock markets. The reason we are so popular - along with the remainder of the local farm board - we all opened our books to the public. You should have seen the eyes on the politicians and media when they were shown the no schitzen real numbers. Wife was there - I was not. She said they found it very sobering. KUDUS to those who did this - all are seriously in the hole with no relief in sight.

I suspect at least 2 dozen beef operations will cease to exist in this county - with another couple dozen that will quietly fade away. Hard to say what will happen in the province. This province is scheduled to lose almost 230 million this year in ag if you believe the latest numbers. Yet we directly affect 650,000 jobs in this province - again, if you believe the numbers

The largest operation in my immediate area is run by a multi-generation farm family. He is younger than I and he told me last week he is out. Quitting. Hopes to keep the farm if he can. Returns on cattle in good years averaged less than 100 bucks profit after all expenses factored in. Thanks to regulations and taxes and ... and ... and ... Losses have been so heavy for the past two years he is completely wiped out.

His wife provided the slush by working off farm.

Now we all fight high taxes, intrusive and expensive legislation, bankers and mortgagemen, utility costs skyrocketing and now on their way up again, subsidies that do not come to us or are so expensive and difficult to calculate that they must be completed by paying an accountant, beef prices in the grocery store at all time highs (15 bucks a pound for steak and 4 plus per pound for decent burger), low commodity pricing, debt too deep to climb out, fuel and fertilizer prices up (fert @ 400 plus per tonne), machinery prices out of line with reality and the beat goes on.

Too bad we risked improving this place at the wrong time. That is how we got hurt.

Wife has been on radio and I think television and certainly in the print media. So we never can keep up with where we are.

We are simply slowly going down. Apparently the government believes we have received about $2K in funding - do not remember it - but that will not pay anything of consequence here anyways. So family pumped in an extra $20K to keep things going long enough for us to get out this summer.

Some basic numbers based on one cow / one weaned calf:

Cost to keep per day - $1.50
Per year - 547.5

Cost per weaned calf - Buck a day

Cost to run place based on each cow - right around $675 - less if you go to 150 animals - but other expenses rise - and so on.

Price received per calf - 300.

Bred cows bought for second herd in '99/'00/'01 averaged just over $950

We were going to bring them here but thank heavens we did not.

Sold for survival at $330 average.

It is somewhat more complex that that in real life, but the numbers are close and can be born out on paper. This place lost $60K last year after all financial obligations factored in. Real dollars - not paper dollars.

Beef farming in Ontario is the low man on the totem pole. All provincial and federal numbers prove this. The only way to win is to go gigantic and win at the "subsidy games". None in this area have managed a win yet.

I was in Toronto yesterday and listened to a man tell me it was a smaller loss to let the land lie than it was for him to work it. Makes you think about things.

A fellow who lives in the local village came by today and was a bit short on feed - so I gave him the last of my soy beans (I bagged it for him - three bags) and some corn. Have a lot of corn, so it was no hardship for us. He only has 4 animals and he needed some help.

I'll look for the article - likely someone or three will be calling us about it.

Some day I will learn to be short in my writings. Stay well,

For the past few months, I didn't even want to talk or hear about BSE. It's the reason I am living in Colorado right now rather than Canada with my family. My parents asked me not to come home after graduation to help on the farm - they did not want me to put my career on hold to help them through this. They had hope that things would improve. But that hope is gone now.

The hearts and spirits of Canadian cattlemen are broken. They have been so strong for so long, but people can only have their hopes dashed so many times and remain optimistic. Yesterday was the last straw for a lot of producers.

Cattlemen selling out is the lesser of the worries at this point. We have lost friends and neighbors to suicide as the light has grown dimmer. Now the light is effectively out for many.

I still believe that the border staying closed will make the Canadian beef industry stronger in the long run. The problem is there likely won't be an industry left to worry about.

Bez, Cattle Annie, frenchie, CRR - I don't even know what to say to you, but thank you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences across Canada and with folks south of the border. And thank you for hanging in there. May God bless you and keep you.

To every single R-CALF supporter on this board and across the United States, may you someday feel the devastation of your northern neighbors.

Well, I thank you for your comments. I am up to 5 who have done themselves in during the past two years. Andy L. out of Fairview, Alberta was the toughest for this family - he, my oldest daughter and I canoed the Peace River for a few days with the 4H group a few years back. The industry in Canada is far smaller than that of the U.S. of A. We all tend to know many folks in most other provinces quite well. The Canadian beef folks usually have a finger on the pulse of what is happening in other provinces across the country.

Be that as it may, I have always attempted to maintain an even keel on R-CALF. I am not sure the positions would be have been different had BSE hit on the other side of the border. What I am truly tired of is all of the finger pointing. I give a damn about who says what to who about what.

My biggest concern is that we all seem to want to scream and shout and swear instead of workling together to solve this issue. It is my observation that there are more than a few on this board who agree with me. Meantime a lot of good people will go down - and through no fault of their own, and no bad management - just bad timing. As I have been quite open about it - we are in the crosshairs and someone is waiting to pull the trigger. As such I am resigned to the inevitable.

Our industry has been hit hard, but it was dealt a body blow by Mr. Dithers and his double speak on BMD - which was just one of many incidents - and the final straw. Our own leaders did us in.

The problem lies with the elites eating well, and drawing big salaries to solve OUR problems. The longer they stretch it out the more they make. It is not about cattle, it is not about the industry and it is not about the people - it is about money and power and greed and yes, self serving corruption at the various levels of not only government, but of industry, and in some cases, the very organizations that are supposed to represent us. Who do we have to blame for this? Look in the mirror.

The Canadian government and the various provincial governments will sit idley by as many of us fall - and not care. You see, food is cheap and the population does not only not know, it for the best part does not care. As long as the store shelves have food they can purchase - then the VOTES that keep politicians in power are safe.

In the end it is far deeper than just BSE. It is about uneven playing fields, it is about not-so-free trade, it is about politicians not doing their jobs, it is about media selling into hype, it is about making money for the right people. And this is being done at the expense of the farmer / rancher. And, most producers are not aware of this. Or worse, they simply hope it continues to happen somewhere else, and not in their pasture.

Woe to the U.S. of A. cattle industry after turning up a positive cow - especially after the hype of R-CALF. We never thought it could happen and you can be sure those with a head on their shoulders in the U.S. of A. are now really aware of what could happen to them if it occurs there. God help them if it does. I would bet you a drink in the bar of your choice that there are some in the U.S. of A. who now are very worried about the potential consequences of a positive animal.

Yeah, we are going to lose a lot of good operations and a lot of good people. I just want to tell everyone to stop the lying and posturing and solve the darned problem - I believe that will not happen for some time to come. Too many self serving schitzen kopfs in the equation.

In the end, when the producers take their hands out of the bucket of water, the hole they leave behind will represent how much they will truly be missed when they are gone

GREED AND POWER, long live R-CALF
 

rancher

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R-calf did not cause you to get BSE, R-calf did not set the USDA rules that shut the border down (you had the same rules), R-calf did not back the packrs that are screwing you, R-calf DID make USDA follow the rules they made.
 

rancher

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A few years ago banks were closing down ranches here, cost of expense was too high and the price of calves was too low. Many ranchers committed suicide after this, marriages were broke up, lots of hurt people. Could we put that on your shoulders as you want to put your problems on ours?
 

Murgen

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R-calf did contribute to the discontinuation of competiton as we knew it before May 20, 2003. No it did not contribute to mismanaged operations that could not compete, given the chance. Over-extending your operation is different than being shut out. But I trust you(rancher) will find out about it in the future!
 

rancher

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And the ones up there that are going broke were not over extended? Cull cow prices being the low they were pre your BSE case, kept lots from getting out of the red.
 

Murgen

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Rancher, not sure what your cull rate is, but here in Canada it is about 2-5%, Not sure if that would break a person or if it might be the calf sales. But keep expressing your opinion, like to hear it!
 

Murgen

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Rancher, not going to change subjects, didn't expect any sympathy from an R-calfer anyway. The human concequence of this whole thing doesn't seem to matter to R-calfers, it's all about the buck, you have just proven that!
 

Sandhusker

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This is rediculous. :mad:

A little test; :?

1) Who sets the price for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

2) Who writes the check for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

3) Who was and is making huge profits at your expense?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

4) Who took a check from the Canadian Government and refused to account for it?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

5) Who refuses to enforce a contempt of parliament charge?
a) R-CALF
b) Parliament

6) Who has the legal authority to regulate US borders
a) R-CALF
b) US Government

7) Who allowed a complete Canadian industry to fall into US control?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Government

8) Who won't allow you to open up other markets via testing?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Goverment

Figure it out. :roll: If you want to fix your problems you'ld better figure out where they're being caused first. :???: You've been blaming R-CALF for how long and it's gotten you where? Geeze, I wonder why :x
 
A

Anonymous

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Murgen said:
Rancher, not sure what your cull rate is, but here in Canada it is about 2-5%, Not sure if that would break a person or if it might be the calf sales. But keep expressing your opinion, like to hear it!

Murgen- that is interesting-- I always wondered why Canadians had so many 13- 14- 15 year old cows they talk about on here....I think the normal cull rate on ranches around here is between 10-20%-- Usually about 15% of heifers are retained...2-5% wouldn't even cover the normal open cows...
 

Bill

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rancher said:
R-calf did not cause you to get BSE, R-calf did not set the USDA rules that shut the border down (you had the same rules), R-calf did not back the packrs that are screwing you, R-calf DID make USDA follow the rules they made.

Why was Ranchers-Cattleman's Action Legal Fund USA formed?
 

rancher

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Why was R-CALF USA founded?

In 1998 the R-CALF USA was founded as a foundation to represent and file three trade cases on behalf of the U.S. cattle industry. Trade laws are different from domestic laws in that it is generally required that the domestic industry monitors them and files the appropriate petitions when a trade violation occurs that is damaging U.S. prices.

R-CALF USA filed a live cattle and anti-dumping (selling below the cost of production) case against Canada and Mexico , and a countervailing (subsidy) case against Canada . The U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) in January dismissed the Mexico case. In the summer of 1999, the Department of Commerce (DOC) found that Canada was subsidizing the production of live cattle, but not at a high enough rate to warrant penalty tariffs. The DOC in July of 1999 also found Canada was dumping cattle into the U.S. at a high enough rate to warrant tariffs equivalent to the violation to be put on. The U.S. cattle market saw an immediate improvement in their markets.

Unfortunately, the ITC ruled in November of 1999, contrary to the DOC findings, that U.S. producers were not “materially injured” by the dumping of Canadian cattle and the ITC lifted the anti-dumping tariffs imposed by the DOC.

The U.S. cattle trade cases resulted in the largest trade case in the history of the U.S. and had more U.S. Senators testifying at the ITC hearing than any previous trade case. Over 27,000 cattle producers and 120 associations from across the U.S. signed on supporting the cases.
 

Manitoba_Rancher

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Murgen,

It s good you posted these qotes to show these R-calf buggers what they are causing nomatter what sandshucker, wannaberacher, and Ol timer say!
Reading what they have wrote tonite about your post I sure wish the shoe was on the other foot and we would sure see them whine, and see how there family suffered if they commited suicide. How can you R-whiners sit back and say R-calf didnt cause all of this. Well you didnt start it but you sure as hell of prolonged it. You guys have to be the biggest group of liers there has ever been in the world. Can any of you tell the truth? I could just see if Leo was pinochio his god damn nose would reach from the eastern seaboard of the US to the west coast. I would like to see the courts in California make R-whine put up this bond they are asking for. Couldnt wait to see the headlines in the paper "cattle group from Montana started out yesterday with 12000 members and after the ruling now they have 0" they all ran with their tails between their legs!

We as Canadian ranchers have seen this go on way to long, it is time to let your voice be heard! As we see it now a small group of inbred morphidites that call themselves R-calf figure they can rule the world... their terrorists!
 

Tam

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Sandhusker said:
This is rediculous. :mad:

A little test; :?

1) Who sets the price for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

2) Who writes the check for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

3) Who was and is making huge profits at your expense?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

4) Who took a check from the Canadian Government and refused to account for it?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

5) Who refuses to enforce a contempt of parliament charge?
a) R-CALF
b) Parliament

6) Who has the legal authority to regulate US borders
a) R-CALF
b) US Government

7) Who allowed a complete Canadian industry to fall into US control?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Government

8) Who won't allow you to open up other markets via testing?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Goverment

Figure it out. :roll: If you want to fix your problems you'ld better figure out where they're being caused first. :???: You've been blaming R-CALF for how long and it's gotten you where? Geeze, I wonder why :x


1. The packers do, but if this border was open the Packers that are in Canada would have some competition. But as it is the packers can pay what ever they want as they know that if one guy won't sell the Bank will be forcing another rancher to soon. When the restriction of segregated plants was lifted for a little while that helpped the cull cattle prices but R-CALF got that stopped with their first court action.

2. The packer do but if it wasn't for R-CALF's court actions , there would be more packers that had access to the our cattle and more competition would have caused the cattle prices to go up.

3. The packers, but if R-CALF hadn't have handed the packers a huge extended captive supply they wouldn't have. You claim to hate the packers but you handed them the silver spoon they have been eating from. How can you blame the packers for taking advantage of the low prices in Canada. I don't see the US ranchers telling the packers down there "oh no you are paying to much for our cattle please pay me less and save some profit for yourself" do you? It's OK for you to take advantage of the situation you have been handed but Da** the packers if they do right Sandhusker.

4.Well I guess the packers but again if R-CALF would let the USDA get on with openning the border useing the science, the Canadian government won't be signing any checks to help any of us out. We would be out there competeing for markets just like we have for years without government help.

5. the Parliament, I guess if you have enough money to back you you can push any government around even the US at least that's what R-CALF must think.

6. I thought it was the US government but now we see one little protectionist group and A gaggle of lawyers and one Federal judge think they have the right to.

7. Just another case of the Big eating up the little. What the big wants the big gets.

8. If Canada decided to 100% test the OTM cattle don't you think the US would have some very strong comments sent to that comment period. The US wants to harmonize our systems and I don't think they mean you to us. I think it is Canada to you. If they truly want to hamonize to us you would not be feed chicken litter and plate waste to cattle and we would still be testing for Annaplas. and Blue. This is a Do as the US says or pay the price relationship just like alot of other relationship the US enters into.
 

Bull Burger

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Sandhusker said:
This is rediculous. (ridiculous)

A little test; :?

1) Who sets the price for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the consumer!


2) Who writes the check for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the consumer!


3) Who was and is making huge profits at your expense?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the banker!

4) Who took a check from the Canadian Government and refused to account for it?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the conspirators!

5) Who refuses to enforce a contempt of parliament charge?
a) R-CALF
b) Parliament

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the Mounties!

6) Who has the legal authority to regulate US borders
a) R-CALF
b) US Government

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the BorderPatrol!

7) Who allowed a complete Canadian industry to fall into US control?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Government

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....AMI, NMA, NCBA, I GIVE UP!

8) Who won't allow you to open up other markets via testing?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Goverment

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....Red Green or the Japanese Parliment!
 

Sandhusker

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Bull Burger said:
Sandhusker said:
This is rediculous. (ridiculous)

A little test; :?

1) Who sets the price for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the consumer!


2) Who writes the check for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the consumer!

BB, Canadian beef is being shipped South to the US consumer. If the consumer sets the price, why aren't the Canadians being paid the same price as the US producers? It's the same consumers, and the beef is labeled the same.

3) Who was and is making huge profits at your expense?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the banker!

If you knew anything about banking, you would know that a 5% margin is considered very good. Is 5% a huge profit?

4) Who took a check from the Canadian Government and refused to account for it?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the conspirators!

5) Who refuses to enforce a contempt of parliament charge?
a) R-CALF
b) Parliament

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the Mounties!

6) Who has the legal authority to regulate US borders
a) R-CALF
b) US Government

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....the BorderPatrol!

7) Who allowed a complete Canadian industry to fall into US control?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Government

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....AMI, NMA, NCBA, I GIVE UP!

8) Who won't allow you to open up other markets via testing?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Goverment

Real Answers for Real Idiots: c)none of the above.....Red Green or the Japanese Parliment!
 

Bull Burger

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Sandhusker said:
BB, Canadian beef is being shipped South to the US consumer. If the consumer sets the price, why aren't the Canadians being paid the same price as the US producers? It's the same consumers, and the beef is labeled the same.

The same reason you lend us money for 8%, but you only pay 2% if we put it in savings. Do your borrowers attack your savers like RCALF attacks packers?


Sandhusker said:
If you knew anything about banking, you would know that a 5% margin is considered very good. Is 5% a huge profit?

I do know about banking, having served on the board of directors. 5% is a huge profit if you are a packer also. Can you dispute this with more than allegations?
 

Sandhusker

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Tam said:
Sandhusker said:
This is rediculous. :mad:

A little test; :?

1) Who sets the price for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

2) Who writes the check for the cattle you sell?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

3) Who was and is making huge profits at your expense?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

4) Who took a check from the Canadian Government and refused to account for it?
a) R-CALF
b) Packers

5) Who refuses to enforce a contempt of parliament charge?
a) R-CALF
b) Parliament

6) Who has the legal authority to regulate US borders
a) R-CALF
b) US Government

7) Who allowed a complete Canadian industry to fall into US control?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Government

8) Who won't allow you to open up other markets via testing?
a) R-CALF
b) Canadian Goverment

Figure it out. :roll: If you want to fix your problems you'ld better figure out where they're being caused first. :???: You've been blaming R-CALF for how long and it's gotten you where? Geeze, I wonder why :x


1. The packers do, but if this border was open the Packers that are in Canada would have some competition. But as it is the packers can pay what ever they want as they know that if one guy won't sell the Bank will be forcing another rancher to soon. When the restriction of segregated plants was lifted for a little while that helpped the cull cattle prices but R-CALF got that stopped with their first court action.

2. The packer do but if it wasn't for R-CALF's court actions , there would be more packers that had access to the our cattle and more competition would have caused the cattle prices to go up.

3. The packers, but if R-CALF hadn't have handed the packers a huge extended captive supply they wouldn't have. You claim to hate the packers but you handed them the silver spoon they have been eating from. How can you blame the packers for taking advantage of the low prices in Canada. I don't see the US ranchers telling the packers down there "oh no you are paying to much for our cattle please pay me less and save some profit for yourself" do you? It's OK for you to take advantage of the situation you have been handed but Da** the packers if they do right Sandhusker.

Come on, Tam. You're smarter than that! :roll: Quit making excuses for the packers. Is it OK for a thief to rob your house because someone left the door unlocked? :wink:

4.Well I guess the packers but again if R-CALF would let the USDA get on with openning the border useing the science, the Canadian government won't be signing any checks to help any of us out. We would be out there competeing for markets just like we have for years without government help.

Which of the USDA's science should the judge use? The 30 month science or the 20 month science? How about the "low risk" science that has no definition? Judge Cebull would like to know as well.

5. the Parliament, I guess if you have enough money to back you you can push any government around even the US at least that's what R-CALF must think.

If you've got a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.

6. I thought it was the US government but now we see one little protectionist group and A gaggle of lawyers and one Federal judge think they have the right to.

LOL. If R-CALF can regulate the borders, we need to put them on the Mexican border to keep the wetbacks out! :lol: The judge has the obligation to keep things on the up and up. The USDA's gaggle of lawyers couldnt convince him things were on the up and up.

7. Just another case of the Big eating up the little. What the big wants the big gets.

8. If Canada decided to 100% test the OTM cattle don't you think the US would have some very strong comments sent to that comment period. The US wants to harmonize our systems and I don't think they mean you to us. I think it is Canada to you. If they truly want to hamonize to us you would not be feed chicken litter and plate waste to cattle and we would still be testing for Annaplas. and Blue. This is a Do as the US says or pay the price relationship just like alot of other relationship the US enters into.

So it's the R-CALF's fault your government won't follow it's obligations and take care of it's own?

Come on, Tam. You're an intelligent woman. Back up and take a look at your answers. You WANT to blame R-CALF for your problems. Your answers were "The other guys, BUT if R-CALF would..." R-CALF has no power over the packers, Federal Judges, the US government, the USDA, or the Canadian Government! You KNOW that! Omit the "BUT" and quit fooling yourself! :wink:
 

Cal

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Sandhusker said:
Tam said:
Sandhusker said:
Come on, Tam. You're an intelligent woman. Back up and take a look at your answers. You WANT to blame R-CALF for your problems. Your answers were "The other guys, BUT if R-CALF would..." R-CALF has no power over the packers, Federal Judges, the US government, the USDA, or the Canadian Government! You KNOW that! Omit the "BUT" and quit fooling yourself! :wink:

So what are you telling us, that RCalf is just a bunch of neutered busybodies trying to help out needy lawyers? Maybe we're finally getting somewhere.
 

Broke Cowboy

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rancher

No matter where I have lived - all my life - I have listened to people talk about how "they must have been over extended".

You may have seen it happen on both sides of the border.

My take:

If a person can hang on for two to three years before they go down in bad times, they were not over extended. They were victims of circumstance. When a person has two years of operating capital in the bank I figure they have planned for disaster - they simply did not expect it to last three years.

Talk of over extension worries me. It smacks of smugness. Often the old crows will hungrily wait for the new guy on ther block to fail in hopes of picking the bones at rock bottom prices. Predatory.

BC
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
What a pathetic attempt at R-CULT "conscience cleansing".

R-CULT lied about the safety of Canadian beef and continues to lie about the safety of Canadian beef.

If it wasn't for R-CULT we would be importing Canadian cattle today that are now coming down in boxes instead of duping Japan into believing that our beef is safe, WITH CANADIAN CATTLE IN THE MIX, while R-CULT says Canadian cattle are unsafe.

Quit being such a coward Sandhusker and claim the knife sticking out of the Canadian producers back.



~SH~
 

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