Registered Angus ??

[kolanuraven]

People have made MILLION$ calling those ' cross bred mutts' as you so aptly put it ...COMPOSITES :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Jason]

A mutt by any other name.....


The wild color gene is as it is named... wild and without a pattern. Try explaining a group of PB red angus cows bred to a pb red angus bull throwing half black calves...

Any breed that allows percentage cattle will never become pure in any sence of the word.

 

[IL Rancher]

You are talking of the extension loci with ED (black) e (red) and E+ which would equate to the wild or aquotii in some books... Depedning on the breed it will have different results including calves born red turning to black or near black as they age.. E+ seems to allow the expression of a whole other mess of genes running from brindle to Augouti patterns that resemble "wild type" color paterns.. Depending on the breed of cattle you get different results..

That all being said, I have enver heard of an E+/E+ animal being born out of two red animals being black at birth....

I beleive Simmis are known marking E+ as a genetic defect if it is detected in animals and I beleive another association was thinking about it.. This is going from some corespondance out of Saskatoon from a few years back when I was talking to a prof there and we were doing a Dun study in Dexters...

 

[Bill]

A mutt by any other name.....


The wild color gene is as it is named... wild and without a pattern. Try explaining a group of PB red angus cows bred to a pb red angus bull throwing half black calves...

Any breed that allows percentage cattle will never become pure in any sence of the word.

Don't go blowing smoke Jason now that someone called your bluff. At least the breeds with open herbooks are able to admit to upgrading.

Here is what should be considered compulsory reading for a genetic expert and purist such as yourself.

http://altagenetica.com/_wsn/page4.html

Before we go into the detail of how coat colour occurs it should be known that any red Lowline that have been born to date does not carry the red allele (e). Even though they are red in colour all the DNA testing has shown that they are homozygous for the wild-type allele (E+). According to recent correspondence with Professor Sheila Schmutz the American and Canadian Angus associations have both published that E+ exists in their Angus. The Australian Angus Society also is aware of the E+ allele within some member's herds. Included in the bottom of the page is a probability chart showing the possible outcomes of joining homozygous and heterozygous black animals. It needs to be noted that if the animal is heterozygous for the dominant black allele then this infers that the animal is also heterozygous for the wild-type allele (E+).

Are you suggesting the Simmental breed added the wild color gene to the Angus breed and if so how could that be when Angus don't allow upgrading?

Or could it be that Angus are guilty of contributing color impurity to the lowline population! :lol:

 

[randiliana]

You are talking of the extension loci with ED (black) e (red) and E+ which would equate to the wild or aquotii in some books... Depedning on the breed it will have different results including calves born red turning to black or near black as they age.. E+ seems to allow the expression of a whole other mess of genes running from brindle to Augouti patterns that resemble "wild type" color paterns.. Depending on the breed of cattle you get different results..

That all being said, I have enver heard of an E+/E+ animal being born out of two red animals being black at birth....

I beleive Simmis are known marking E+ as a genetic defect if it is detected in animals and I beleive another association was thinking about it.. This is going from some corespondance out of Saskatoon from a few years back when I was talking to a prof there and we were doing a Dun study in Dexters...

Here is a pretty good article explaing coat colors in cattle and how the genes work. It explains the "wild type" fairly well, and how spots happen.

http://www.agri.ubu.ac.th/suralee/2587ch3.pdf

 

[randiliana]

An earthworm has roughly the same number of genes as humans...obviously our genes work a little different! :shock: :

Well, yes it that case they do WORK differently. But recessive is still recessive and dominant still dominant and in that respect they work the same way regardless of species. Just that the genes of an earthworm are different than the genes of a human or cow or whatever.

 

[Jinglebob]

.

Any breed that allows percentage cattle will never become pure in any sence of the word.

Then how'd we get so many different "breeds" from the original wild cow, that was basicly white?

If what you are saying is true, there are no "pure" breeds.

We had a neighbor who had a white hereford. They have bred regestered herefords for years. It had a slight marking like a hereford does, but was still all white.

Sure got a lot of crap from the neighbors about their char x hereford. :lol:

 

[Faster horses]

Probably was a mineral deficiency, JB.
:wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock:

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Somebody's been playing with the registration paperwork!!!! :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

This hypothesis is unlikely. The terminal breeding could have anything in it a couple of generations back, and you would not know it. Don't wonder or worry, and use Homozygous sires from now on.

DOC HARRIS

 

[RobertMac]

randiliana, the article you posted was per genome mapping. Before mapping the genome in the days of one gene/one trait thinking, every creditable geneticist would have told you humans had well over 100,000 genes. Turns out we have roughly 1/3 as many...in my thinking, genetic science was more like 2/3s wrong. :roll: The point of my example is that now we have to learn why roughly the same number of genes result in two totally different creatures...meaning that there is interaction between genes that we simply don't understand...yet.

Frankly, I find these debates silly! :loll: Where is the irrefutable proof that hide color relates to meat quality. Environmental conditions have more to do with meat quality than hide color and as much impact as genetics. The black hide craze is nothing more than other breeds trying to take advantage of a market CAB has built. Although it is working for those selling the black-hided cattle...the buyer simply gets an animal with a black hide and, more than likely, poorer quality meat (we should all know what single trait selection get you).

got that right, JOB and HE is probably as close to right on that white Hereford as anyone else!!! :loll: :loll: :loll: And if I remember right from my school days, there is this thing called "mutation" that can really throw a kink in the gene purity thing!! 8)

 

[IL Rancher]

Professor Sheila Schmutz was the woman I talked to up in Saskatoon.... Very nice lady.. She has a webpage about colors and horns in cattle and some other genetic stuff too..

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/colors.html would be her color page...

Nothing to indepth really...

 

[randiliana]

Somebody's been playing with the registration paperwork!!!! :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

This hypothesis is unlikely. The terminal breeding could have anything in it a couple of generations back, and you would not know it. Don't wonder or worry, and use Homozygous sires from now on.

DOC HARRIS

The point I was getting at was not that the bull is a crossbred, hybrid or whatever, just that the COW that IS registered(not that it matters to me too much since we run COMMERCIAL cows) threw a calf that had white on its face. Even if there was someone messing with paperwork, I highly doubt that it happened with this specific cow or even her dam. More likely that it happened a few generations back. It has also been explained to me on another forum that if the cow had Fame, Fortune 2000 or Focus in her lineage there is a possibility of white showing up.

I understand the basics of genetics, and in particular color genetics as they really interest me. The way I figure it is that the bull has the recessive spotting gene (or some other recessive gene that transmits white) and as we found out, regardless of registration papers or not, the cow has the same recessive gene.

We are in the business of raising beef, and the way we market our calves, pounds are the biggest requirement. This bull regardless of the white he could throw fits into our program quite well. While I am sure he isn't the perfect bull, I am sure that he is on the "better end" of the bulls that WE can afford to buy. You may debate the hybrid vs purebred, but in the end, does it really matter in a commercial herd?? As long as the bull is improving, or at least meeting the quality of your cows what is to concern yourself about. By understanding how the genes work we can easily minimize the undesireable ones cropping up (at least color wise). I now know that this bull can throw extra white, and as we don't particularly want that I can make an effort to breed him to cows that I either know or am fairly sure don't carry the same recessive gene and that will minimize the issue. As they say, the proof is in the pudding, and his calves have been born easily, and are growing well. We will see in the fall just how well, but we are happy enough with them that we will use him again this year. We have gotten 44 calves out of him and the avg BW is 87 lbs. We had 6 calves out of those that had more white than we expected.

Here are a couple pics of him LAST spring. I haven't gotten any new ones yet and since it is raining I'm not going out for new ones now :wink: The story on him is this. He was our pick of the bulls in the catalogue last year. When I went to look at them, he was still top of the list. Unfortunately, the breeder was unable to register him. The DNA samples kept coming back wrong so they pulled him from the sale. After the sale since we had only gotten 1 instead of 2 bulls, the breeder, who knew that bull was high on our list offered him to us, told us that he couldn't get papers on him and why. Looking at the bull we figured he was probably crossed with Gelbveih which also worked for us. As we found out this spring it is not Gelbveih, but Simmental. No big deal. 1/4 Simmental is not a problem in the calves except for when they come out with too much white. It is something that we can minimize so we aren't too worried about it. As for the breeder, when we told him what the other 1/2 of the bull was he offered to fix the problem (exchange bulls or credit) if we wanted. But what is the point when the bull is doing his job?? Calves look good and we had no calving problems out of him.