Good evening all, Wondering if anybody has been in this spot before and what could or would be the best way to handle it. About 44 years ago my grandfather passed away and with his death the ranch we have was split up between my father, grandmother, and my granddads brother. My dad and grandmother got half,, the brother and his wife the other half. The split was not an amicable one, there was much hostility and bitterness involved. The uncle leased his half out to a neighbor who still has it today, his two daughters weren't at all interested in ranching but one stayed on the place and raised two children who also live there, they are now in their late twenties. The son of my cousin approached us with a proposal recently, he would like to buy about 25 cows and put them on their own place again partially because he is interested in ranching I believe and partially because relations have gone south with the leasee over the past decade and they would like to get rid of him. My problem is while they have 600 acres of baseland with about 150 acres dryland hay in it they have absolutely zero machinery since the neighbor hayed it all these years and threw them a few bales of horse hay every year, his idea is if his 25 could run with our cows during the winter calve out with them and we would put up the hay on shares and do shares on the cows. He has offered to do all nightcalving , and help in other ways, however, I believe he would still have to buy hay since 75 ton or so isn't going to cut it all winter which is what their place will put up leaving none for us, he is a sincere hardworking person so I don't doubt he would do his share such as calving ect, but he works as a contracter most of the time and can be gone a lot, I personally live and work about 100 miles away but am usually home 4 days a week which isn't much help daily. my father is there fulltime and most of this would fall on him but he is 75 and not in too good shape anyway. He was willing to make a go at it but I am worried about it getting dumped all in his lap a lot of the time if the cousin cant be there for some reason. My brothers are dead set against it, I went along with my dad and thought giving it a try couldn't hurt If the kid would carry his end since neither he nor his sister was even alive during the bitter split up 44 years ago , that generation are all dead now but the practicalities concern me and also he would like to run part time with our cows on some of our leased land which I am not in favor of so much. On one side I would like to help him and so would my dad but on the other I worry about a lot of things, I'm not sure he realizes what he is getting into , even with just 25 head, He would have to borrow all the money and has talked to a lending agency,not sure who, FHA or some other Dept of ag program and says they are very favorable, but I don't understand why a lender would loan money so readily when he has so little experience and in order :sure: :sure: to make his plan workable it depends heavily on the involvement of third persons with machinery , expertise, ect. I suggested to him maybe just yearlings on their place to run for the summer and get rid of before winter might be the ticket but he is set on mother cows. Just open for any thoughts, anybody been here and done that before? or know of a similar situation? Thanks
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relatives cow proposal
- Thread starter redheeler
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Faster horses
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You are asking if anyone here knows of a similar situation.....I'm sure someone...or more than 1 someone has. I would tell you to
steer clear. Too many things can go wrong and it could be a repeat of what happened 44 years ago. Not sure what you would get out
of it. Nice that you and your father want to help..........but........simple is better.
Your suggestion of running yearlings sounds like good advice to me. That way he could get his feet wet without you and your
father going swimming. Running yearlings might take the romance out of wanting to own cows. Or not.
Good luck to you!
steer clear. Too many things can go wrong and it could be a repeat of what happened 44 years ago. Not sure what you would get out
of it. Nice that you and your father want to help..........but........simple is better.
Your suggestion of running yearlings sounds like good advice to me. That way he could get his feet wet without you and your
father going swimming. Running yearlings might take the romance out of wanting to own cows. Or not.
Good luck to you!
pups and bucks
Well-known member
Sounds like a sticky situation.........I try not to do business with relatives, it can make for hard feelings.
LCP
Well-known member
I agree that there is opportunity for problems in this situation. However, there is also some benefit to you that might come of it also. Do you have haying equipment to cover his 150 acres? If so, here's what I see as benefits: you have a larger herd and more acres, which means you are able to rest your grass for longer periods of time if you're using a rotational grazing system. Long term that will improve your forage production and soil health. Second, you can lower your machinery costs per ton of hay by covering more acres with your equipment. The labor part shouldn't be a huge difference, unless he gets some real nasty hard-calving cows or something. It doesn't take much longer to care for an additional 25 hd of cows if you're already choring anyhow, assuming you have the equipment and facilities to handle them. Having a night watch would be great assuming he knows what to do, especially if you're used to doing all of it yourself. Lastly, if you are able to market a larger number of calves at once, there may be an advantage to that as well.
It would concern me that he's got a note on all the cattle. But, that would be his risk, not yours. If he had to sell them, how would that impact you?
If you would decide to do something with him, it would be absolutely critical to put everything in writing. Talk through every scenario you can think of and make sure everyone is on the same page.
Why are your brothers against it? Are they part of the operation currently?
I agree that simple is better, but economy of scale enters into the conversation at some point. With the numbers you're talking about, if there's a fair and sensible way to work with neighbors (or family), I think it's worth looking into.
Disclaimer - I tend to be optimistic about these types of deals. I have a partner or partners on every enterprise I'm invested in, and it has worked so far. It has everything to do with the personality, integrity, and reasonableness (is that even a word??) of the parties involved. That said, I know family deals don't always turn out well. (They don't always turn out badly either.) In my observation, they turn out badly when they are treated like family deals rather than business deals, meaning nothing is written down or "fair" and "equal" are assumed to be the same thing.
It would concern me that he's got a note on all the cattle. But, that would be his risk, not yours. If he had to sell them, how would that impact you?
If you would decide to do something with him, it would be absolutely critical to put everything in writing. Talk through every scenario you can think of and make sure everyone is on the same page.
Why are your brothers against it? Are they part of the operation currently?
I agree that simple is better, but economy of scale enters into the conversation at some point. With the numbers you're talking about, if there's a fair and sensible way to work with neighbors (or family), I think it's worth looking into.
Disclaimer - I tend to be optimistic about these types of deals. I have a partner or partners on every enterprise I'm invested in, and it has worked so far. It has everything to do with the personality, integrity, and reasonableness (is that even a word??) of the parties involved. That said, I know family deals don't always turn out well. (They don't always turn out badly either.) In my observation, they turn out badly when they are treated like family deals rather than business deals, meaning nothing is written down or "fair" and "equal" are assumed to be the same thing.
:agree:Faster horses said:You are asking if anyone here knows of a similar situation.....I'm sure someone...or more than 1 someone has. I would tell you to
steer clear. Too many things can go wrong and it could be a repeat of what happened 44 years ago. Not sure what you would get out
of it. Nice that you and your father want to help..........but........simple is better.
Your suggestion of running yearlings sounds like good advice to me. That way he could get his feet wet without you and your
father going swimming. Running yearlings might take the romance out of wanting to own cows. Or not.
Good luck to you!
loomixguy
Well-known member
Take it from someone who has been paying the price for mixing family and business for the past 25 years, and is STILL paying the price....NEVER...NEVER...NEVER mix family and business. NEVER! No matter what's agreed to or put down in writing or in a signed contract, the juice ain't worth the squeeze. Things will find a way to bite you in the ass years on down the road. Even if you're right and the other party is wrong, YOU will always be "the bad guy".
loomixguy, I'm very sorry your business with family was difficult enough to leave you feeling that way. If families didn't do business together, I'm sure there wouldn't be many viable ranches in my area. It isn't always smooth sailing, but does teach some how to make the best of a bad situation, too.
However, reading many 'expert' opinions in nearly any ag related publication, one can learn a lot......if much of it is what NOT to do. There is some very good information on how to have better changes for success, much of it very focused on having EVERYTHING in writing. There are so many pushing for a formal business plan......and in all this I'm pretty much "saying do as I suggest, not as I do, or have done"! Might be a good idea, if one remembers to use it as a guide and don't feel like a failure if every little detail isn't followed exactly. Why is it so hard to talk about the most important things in life in families anyway???? Growing up, I always thought the families of other people were so much 'nicer' to one another than mine......now, I realize those others probably thought that about my family! And all were probably pretty good families, for the times.
Back to your 'plan', if it develops: maybe get some professional business advice, have a plan that benefits everyone, and a reasonable exit plan which prevents your side of the deal from being damaged if the 'new' entity can't fulfill his end of the deal. And no one gets to take advantage of the other party. Not sure that can be diplomatically done, but an opportunity to heal old wounds is worth a shot, imo. Best of life to you all.
mrj
However, reading many 'expert' opinions in nearly any ag related publication, one can learn a lot......if much of it is what NOT to do. There is some very good information on how to have better changes for success, much of it very focused on having EVERYTHING in writing. There are so many pushing for a formal business plan......and in all this I'm pretty much "saying do as I suggest, not as I do, or have done"! Might be a good idea, if one remembers to use it as a guide and don't feel like a failure if every little detail isn't followed exactly. Why is it so hard to talk about the most important things in life in families anyway???? Growing up, I always thought the families of other people were so much 'nicer' to one another than mine......now, I realize those others probably thought that about my family! And all were probably pretty good families, for the times.
Back to your 'plan', if it develops: maybe get some professional business advice, have a plan that benefits everyone, and a reasonable exit plan which prevents your side of the deal from being damaged if the 'new' entity can't fulfill his end of the deal. And no one gets to take advantage of the other party. Not sure that can be diplomatically done, but an opportunity to heal old wounds is worth a shot, imo. Best of life to you all.
mrj
Brad S
Well-known member
Mrj, "might heal old wounds"
That would be my thought. The cousin mentoring with the old guy might work especially if they consult mr coors after work occasionally. Risk for adverse results are substantial, and a positive outcome is not guaranteed. Try to keep everything an arms length deal.
That would be my thought. The cousin mentoring with the old guy might work especially if they consult mr coors after work occasionally. Risk for adverse results are substantial, and a positive outcome is not guaranteed. Try to keep everything an arms length deal.
loomixguy said:Take it from someone who has been paying the price for mixing family and business for the past 25 years, and is STILL paying the price....NEVER...NEVER...NEVER mix family and business. NEVER! No matter what's agreed to or put down in writing or in a signed contract, the juice ain't worth the squeeze. Things will find a way to bite you in the ass years on down the road. Even if you're right and the other party is wrong, YOU will always be "the bad guy".
Been there done that working with friends or family most of the time will cause many problems. I love that I have hired many strangers who have become friends but if you go into this the more successful you make him the more he will at some time resent you - - - I do not know why but it seems to be the normal. If you want to make an enemy of your cousin go in with him, if not help him background of help with haying but keep at arms length!
