RFID Tags

[Traveler]

Ran across this thread while browsing. Was wondering if anyone had opinions on them and the Canadian laws. I was maybe a little surprised at the responses.

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=606997&mid=5057055#M5057055

 

[AC Diesel]

It will be a cold day in hell before I use them.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Every animal has to have a tag when it leaves the home ranch,for sale,or pasture. Been the law for about 15 years now.

 

[George]

I micro chip my pups before they leave - - - a barcode of the micro chip is attached to the health papers as well as the registration papers. I do this is the event that a pup goes missing there is a better chance of it getting returned. I also had a woman that brought me a puppy at 5 months and 3 weeks ( I give a 6 month health guarantee ) and wanted her money back or a replacement puppy as it had problems. When I scanned it this puppy was not micro chipped ( I feel she got a puppy from the local dog pound ) and did not look like anything I have ever produced - - - maybe had some German Shepherd back a ways but not full blooded.

Many people are crooks! She wanted me to replace the pup she brought me and she would have ended up with 2 of my pups for the price of 1 - - - good scam if you can pull it off!

On my cattle they are ear tagged and the breeding stock is branded - - - if they develop a tag that can be read reliably from about 10 feet I would be interested. My chips for the pups can only be read from about 3" - - - good enough for dogs but not what I would want in cattle!

 

[Traveler]

What I kind of gathered was:

Government oversight and mandatory reporting is going to increase.

Tag retention can be a problem.

Readers are expensive (?) and have accuracy issues.

Rules of enforcement may vary between locations.

Is anyone having to deal with them having those issues or agree with those statements?

 

[Silver]

Can't say that any of these are issues here. I don't use a reader and don't plan to in the near future.
Rules seem simple enough; animals need a tag if they leave our place.
Tag retention not a big problem. We tag at birth, rfid goes in the top of the ear not the back.
What bothers me is it's an added expense and I'm not convinced we are seeing any benefit with regards to broader markets and better prices.
Another thing that bothers me is that the end user doesn't take the tag out of the database. According to CCIA we still have every animal ever tagged and registered to this place. Seems to me if we are required to take the time to register these tags that whoever kills these animals should be removing the tags from the system.

 

[canadian angus]

It will be a cold day in hell before I use them.

Very cold now, not sure in hell!

 

[Angus 62]

Pretty simple Silver, if there is ever a disease outbreak or some problem you will be the one seen as responsible.

 

[mrj]

Can't say that any of these are issues here. I don't use a reader and don't plan to in the near future.
Rules seem simple enough; animals need a tag if they leave our place.
Tag retention not a big problem. We tag at birth, rfid goes in the top of the ear not the back.
What bothers me is it's an added expense and I'm not convinced we are seeing any benefit with regards to broader markets and better prices.
Another thing that bothers me is that the end user doesn't take the tag out of the database. According to CCIA we still have every animal ever tagged and registered to this place. Seems to me if we are required to take the time to register these tags that whoever kills these animals should be removing the tags from the system.

Silver, thanks for sharing your experiences. Both issues are problems which shouldn't be put on the producer alone, imo. But it could be the producer has the opportunity to make use of that tag to his benefit from broader markets/prices by advertising and marketing his cattle, not simply taking them to the sale barn for whatever he can get. And that is assuming selling cattle is similar in Canada to the USA.

Your second problem of someone not removing tags/numbers from data base could be a serious one. Have you talked to 'the powers that be' about it? It could be anywhere from humorous to devastating in various ways to the producer who originally owned the cattle with those tags, couldn't it? I mean, someone far into the future claiming there is a problem of whatever sort caused by an animal which is thirty years old, according to the tag originally put in that animal......an animal which obviously isn't in the food chain at age thirty......or is it?????

mrj

 

[Silver]

Pretty simple Silver, if there is ever a disease outbreak or some problem you will be the one seen as responsible.

Well I tell you what, if there is a disease outbreak the sooner we get it under control the better for all of us. If the tag speeds that up then it would be worth it despite all my grumblings about RFID tags.

 

[C-J]

I worked in both Canada and here in the States on this issue. Canada is way ahead of us on this because they've been at it for so long. Unfortunately the CCIA has botched so much of it that it's a mess in many ways. Here the government is slowly building infrastructure (some of which will be private industry) to do some serious tracking. We really have it already in the health papers we have to have to cross state lines but it'll get much more complex and complete over time.

As far as tags and readers go there are new UHF tags that look just like our dangle or management tags we all use. Difference is they can be read from about ten to fifteen feet with a handheld reader and from up to twenty five feet using a fixed antenna system - both with moving, even running cattle. The handheld units are about fifteen hundred and the fixed units can be up to two grand. Don't let retail prices fool you.

I worked across the continent with ranchers feed yards and governments and designed a software system that linked various locations together so they could share data up and down the chain seamlessly. I wanted ranchers to get more for their cattle and to have full access to downstream production data.

Anyway that's a quick and dirty summary of what I've seen and experienced. I left the company I worked for but still like what I can do with the tags and we'll be using them thus summer in our stocker program. I've got some practical assessments of how they can be a benefit to ranchers but it's honestly pretty limited unless you're in a value added program.

Hope that helps. Glad to share more information if anyone's interested.

 

[mrj]

Thanks for the info, C-J. That sounds like the right kind of ID system. If private businesses/individuals work together with animal health /veterinarians/govt. health regulators/all segments of the cattle industry all work together; all with 'skin in the game' from the computer experts to the animal care takers can figure out what each needs to end up with a good system that we can all afford and all get some benefits from.......it should make beef production better than ever for everyone who really participates, genetics to consumer.

From the standpoint of a cow-calf-stocker business, we would like to be able to assure the health of our animals, as well as some good genetics for producing the best beef we can afford to. To do that, we need to be able to access the feed-back from our tags and the whole system has to be affordable.

mrj

 

[Traveler]

I worked in both Canada and here in the States on this issue. Canada is way ahead of us on this because they've been at it for so long. Unfortunately the CCIA has botched so much of it that it's a mess in many ways. Here the government is slowly building infrastructure (some of which will be private industry) to do some serious tracking. We really have it already in the health papers we have to have to cross state lines but it'll get much more complex and complete over time.

As far as tags and readers go there are new UHF tags that look just like our dangle or management tags we all use. Difference is they can be read from about ten to fifteen feet with a handheld reader and from up to twenty five feet using a fixed antenna system - both with moving, even running cattle. The handheld units are about fifteen hundred and the fixed units can be up to two grand. Don't let retail prices fool you.

I worked across the continent with ranchers feed yards and governments and designed a software system that linked various locations together so they could share data up and down the chain seamlessly. I wanted ranchers to get more for their cattle and to have full access to downstream production data.

Anyway that's a quick and dirty summary of what I've seen and experienced. I left the company I worked for but still like what I can do with the tags and we'll be using them thus summer in our stocker program. I've got some practical assessments of how they can be a benefit to ranchers but it's honestly pretty limited unless you're in a value added program.

Hope that helps. Glad to share more information if anyone's interested.

Yes, thanks for the post. If you're loading, say, numerous semi loads, and the calves are loading quickly, does the system work well and not slow things down, or what would be that procedure? How much information are the producers getting back because of the tags?

 

[Angus 62]

So a rancher goes through the trouble and expense of putting in tags, gets no added benefit or profit for it and the data base doesn't show any traceability beyond the original point of production. Sounds like a government program alright.

 

[mrj]

So a rancher goes through the trouble and expense of putting in tags, gets no added benefit or profit for it and the data base doesn't show any traceability beyond the original point of production. Sounds like a government program alright.

Wouldn't the "benefits or added profit" you might get depend upon what you put on those tags indicating what you had put into them re. care, nutrition, genetics, etc.? Is date of birth still important for feeders wanting to sell to 'under 20 months at finish' programs? Surely some want to know what medicines, vaccinations, and other information have gone into cattle and will pay for it if they have to.

In other words, maybe we have to get better at raising our cattle to fit specific markets and finding that market in order to get paid better for our cattle. Maybe the days of just selling them are fading pretty fast.

And why should we let it be "a government program"? If there is private ownership of the chip, with government oversight for the health end of it, the use of the information for sales enhancement will be up to the owner of the cattle.

mrj

 

[Angus 62]

Age and sourced tags were supposed to be big deal a few years ago. I don't remember seeing any for several years. The reason is that there was zero price benefit. Lots of work for nothing. One guy was told by a large buyer they cut them off for their own tags anyway. But pay a premium and people will do it.

It was only a few years ago MANDATORY ID was being being shoved down our throats and remember which groups were helping with the shoving.

 

[RSL]

I guess my take on the tags is a bit different from a Canadian perspective. Since we only have about 10% of the population of the US, we are export dependent. The tags are part of a traceback system required by our importers and are part of a system that can be (and is) automated at the processor level, so tags are retired as cattle are harvested and can be tracked to the carcass. That said, the inventory outstanding is a mess.
We put tags in from day 1 of the program (before actually as we participated in retention trials). Originally age verification was not mandatory, so we age verified our calves, advertised it and took a premium from the marketplace as it opened up some market opportunities for the buyer. Then our provincial government legislated mandatory age verification. It meant the loss of our premium but no operational change for us. In the meantime we had moved on to be a pilot herd with BIXS. This meant the RFID tag got us back some (not all) of our carcass data without retaining ownership of our calves. We used this data to package and market our calves and commanded a very significant premium from the marketplace. Now we are working through MacDonald's verification, and market BI Prime Protection and Express verified calves with carcass data to back them up. These are all tied to our herd and the RFID tag. We are starting to tie this to DNA information as well on the bull and heifer side of our program.
I prefer that RFID be driven by the marketplace, but in the Canadian situation it is not, so our goal has been to be ahead of the curve and command every premium that we can think of creating.
The tags have been around for a long time. We were weighing progeny test program calves with RFID tags in the early 90's and it was fantastic to weigh 300 calves and get the information from the scale in a file that could instantly be loaded into a computer and sorted. No more typing or handwriting errors.
The RFID tags approved right now have a relatively short read range, but are optimal for collecting data on cattle through a chute or in a kill box. The HF tags have a much greater read range, but are hard to isolate for taking individual animal measurements. If cattle are head to tail in a chute and the read range is 20 feet, you could be taking the tag from any of 4 or 5 animals, or even the ones on the outside of the chute.
RFID and traceability does not change my liability or responsibility in my eyes, it just makes traceback quicker. My liability is covered by documentation and doing things properly in the first place.

 

[Mike]

The entire Ranching business would be better off if all animals were tagged and all the data from every calf made it's way back to the producer after harvest. Carcass data. Feed data. Grazing data. Whatever data.................

Many, many, many ranchers have no idea how their calves compare to others after they leave the ranch.

 

[Workinonit]

The entire Ranching business would be better off if all animals were tagged and all the data from every calf made it's way back to the producer after harvest. Carcass data. Feed data. Grazing data. Whatever data.................

Many, many, many ranchers have no idea how their calves compare to others after they leave the ranch.

Unfortunately, many "producers" don't really care. All they care about is the check they receive from the sale barn.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I guess they are testing GPS, and reusable tags. Battery powered, solar charged. You are to be able to track where cattle have been and where they are. If they lose one, you can track the tag even if you can't find the cow. A transmitter must be within 5 miles of the tag, but the monitor can go anywhere. Something to watch for in the future.

That would be handy, I think I am still missing a steer from the summer and I got a text from a US neighbor wondering if a steer of his showed you in this country.
I'm thinking some "hunters" might be eating well.