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nortexsook

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U.S. EPA Grants Waiver for 15% Ethanol in Gas for Newer Vehicles

By Steve Geimann

Oct. 13 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Environmental Protection
Agency is permitting higher concentrations of ethanol in
gasoline for vehicles made in 2007 and later, granting a request
from producers of the corn-based fuel additive.

The agency announced its decision to allow 15 percent
ethanol in fuel today in an e-mailed statement.


FOOD SHORTAGES HERE WE COME!!!!!!!!!
 
Aint government grand? :???: :mad: While I applaud the folks who raise corn and the help this news will be to them, I sure have bunches of questions. I have been told by several mechanics that this ethanol additive stuff is hell on small engines like 4 wheelers, chainsaws, tillers, ect. It eats the gaskets and seals and 2 guys I know have quit using it altogether and go far and wide to find ethanol free fuel and buy it in bulk to put in their equipment. Why not use switch grass that folks cant eat instead of corn? :roll: Stupidity must run in flocks! :shock:
 
It will certainly ruin lots of small engines around the country as most people are not aware of the problems it causes.

Just what Joe Sixpack is going to need next summer when the recession is still going and all their lawn equipment starts needing replaced.

Shart for brains about explains the whole ethanol boondoggle.
 
Rick Kitchings has been a small-engine mechanic for about 30 years, and he's been busier than ever lately.

Recently, a customer came into his shop in Savannah, Ga., with a string trimmer that had barely been used. "It looked like it just came off the showroom floor, but the motor was absolutely shot, absolutely worn out," Kitchings said.

The owner had fueled the trimmer with an gasoline-ethanol blend, which is becoming increasingly common thanks to a federal mandate to convert to biofuels.

Although the Web is rife with complaints from car owners who say ethanol damaged their engines, ethanol producers and automakers say it's safe to use in cars. But smaller engines — the two-cycle utility engines in lawnmowers, chain saws and outboard boat motors — are another story.

Benjamin Mallisham, owner of a lawnmower repair shop in Tuscaloosa, Ala., said at least 40 percent of the lawnmower engines he repairs these days have been damaged by ethanol.

"When you put that ethanol in here, it eats up the insides or rusts them out," Mallisham said. "All the rubber gaskets and parts — it eats those up."

The sludge problem
Auto mechanics say the same thing takes place in car engines, where debris dislodged by ethanol in gas station fuel tanks can gum things up. But car engines are highly sophisticated; especially in later models, they're equipped to comfortably handle the fallout of ethanol-blended gas, mechanics said.

The Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group for ethanol producers based in Washington, says there's no evidence that ethanol can damage smaller engines, either.

"Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance," the association said.

But mechanics across the country insist that as gasoline blended with ethanol takes over in more gas stations, lawnmowers and boat motors everywhere are choking.

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"They're starving for gas, because the little needle holes in them are stopped up with the gel that happens when that stuff breaks down," Mallisham said. "It stops them up so it can't run."

Here's what happens: In smaller engines, ethanol can create a chain reaction of events that end up clogging valves and rusting out small metal parts — including, crucially, carburetors.

"When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you've now put a chemical substance in there that's going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have," said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti's Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va.

In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, "the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you're lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it's actually not lubricating the engine."

That creates a gummy residue, called shellack, that clogs filters and hoses. And it does no good to follow the rocking-chair wisdom that says you'll be fine if you drain the tank before you gas it back up.

"People will tell you you can take the gas out of them and it won't happen, but it's the residue that does the damage," Mallisham said.

Ethanol already under pressure
Most gasoline sold in the United States is now mixed with up to 10 percent ethanol, according to industry estimates. Use of the blended fuel, often called E10, has grown with a federal mandate designed to boost the levels of renewable fuels at the pump. In many areas, it's the only gasoline widely sold.

The fuel blend has been the focus of debate in recent months as analysts and some farmers say the diversion of corn to ethanol production has led to higher prices for corn in its use as a food crop. The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a request for a temporary 50 percent cut in new mandates for ethanol production because of concern that they are helping drive up food costs.

In a study released this week, researchers at Purdue University in Indiana found that corn prices had risen to $4 a bushel, the highest in a decade, largely because of the higher prices farmers can demand from fuel producers.

"Three dollars was just because the price of oil went up and the market demanded more ethanol to substitute for gasoline," said Wallace E. Tyner, co-director of Purdue's Center for Global Trade Analysis.

David Summers, a biofuels researcher at Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla, said that while ethanol was cheaper to produce than pure gasoline because it is subsidized, vehicles may also get fewer miles to the gallon.

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"It was the wonder fuel to get us out of trouble — and it won't," he said.

When you add in its tendency to damage some engines, many mechanics and green fuel advocates are asking whether ethanol is worth it.

"There is no massive PR machine working to point out the downsides of ethanol, like there is on the other side," said Christa Westerberg, a lawyer in Stoughton, Wis., who has represented opponents of ethanol plants in Wisconsin.

Rick Kitchings, the mechanic in Georgia, said consumers simply should insist on pure gasoline for their small utility engines.

"Theoretically, avoid ethanol," he said. "Avoid ethanol."

© 2010 msnbc.com Reprints
 
Heck, now I gotta apologize to all of my engines 'cause I've been ruinin'
'em by feeding them that evil ethanol all these years. :oops: Some of 'em have been drinkin' corn squeezin's for 20 yrs or better and still at it. :roll:

Seriously, I'm shocked to see ag people on this board going along with the rhetoric of the ethanol bashers. :???:
 
I guess cutting and pasting is beyond Bull Haulers pay grade:

Here is his response:

>>Ethanol has been a scapegoat for far too long. It has way less influence on the price of corn then it has been made out to have. Do you honestly think that two dollar corn would come back if ethanol suddenly went away. For alot of farmers the cost of production for the 2011 corn crop will be over four dollars a bushel. I just bought seed corn today. The highest priced seed I bought was right at $250 a bag. I get three acres out of a bag. I also bought my fertilizer today and fertilizer is going up faster then corn is right now.<<

And my reply:

>>So sorry the fertilizer companies are bending you over.

Yes corn prices would drop greatly if ethanol were shelved. 30% of the corn crop is going to ethanol.

BOONDOGGLE.<<


Oh that was hard....
 
John SD said:
Heck, now I gotta apologize to all of my engines 'cause I've been ruinin'
'em by feeding them that evil ethanol all these years. :oops: Some of 'em have been drinkin' corn squeezin's for 20 yrs or better and still at it. :roll:

Seriously, I'm shocked to see ag people on this board going along with the rhetoric of the ethanol bashers. :???:


Yep my four-wheelers. lawn mowers, weed wacker, 1970 truck all still running fine on ethanol.
 
Bullhauler said:
John SD said:
Heck, now I gotta apologize to all of my engines 'cause I've been ruinin'
'em by feeding them that evil ethanol all these years. :oops: Some of 'em have been drinkin' corn squeezin's for 20 yrs or better and still at it. :roll:

Seriously, I'm shocked to see ag people on this board going along with the rhetoric of the ethanol bashers. :???:


Yep my four-wheelers. lawn mowers, weed wacker, 1970 truck all still running fine on ethanol.

Same here bullhauler. Been using 10% ethanol unleaded gas exclusively here since early '90s when the bulk jobber quit regular leaded gas. In fact I ran E30 in everything this summer that I gassed up at home including the 4 wheeler, lawn mower, and weed wacker. I did mix the 2-stroke oil in those engines a little thicker than normal.

Everything started good at prevailing summer temps but I'm going back to E10 this winter. All of my stuff is old enough to still have carburetors except a pickup I have with a TBI 454 which runs good at operating temp with E50. Yes, it does lose both power and mileage at that concentration. Loses power more than mileage but still has enough of the former since it's a 454 and only loses a couple MPG of the latter.

From my past experience with ethanol I would have no reservations at all to fueling up with E15.

IMO, the "food vs fuel" deal is a bogus arguement promoted by liberals and enviromentalists. The feed value of the corn is still there in the byproducts. Only the starch from the corn is used to make ethanol. The protein is left in a more concentrated and digestible form. My calves love DDG! :wink:
 
John SD said:
Heck, now I gotta apologize to all of my engines 'cause I've been ruinin'
'em by feeding them that evil ethanol all these years. :oops: Some of 'em have been drinkin' corn squeezin's for 20 yrs or better and still at it. :roll:

Seriously, I'm shocked to see ag people on this board going along with the rhetoric of the ethanol bashers. :???:


:agree:
 
nortexsook said:
30% of the corn crop is going to ethanol.

I guess my response to that statement would be "So what?" I'd be tickled to death if we could find another market for beef cattle that would require 30% of production.

Perhaps a better statement might be "The energy is gone from 30% of the corn crop. The protein content is still there and it doesn't as cost as much to transport it in concentrated form."
 
Funny tyou should mention tree huggers. Seems like they are the ones all for the BOONDOGLE of ethanol. It is the facist EPA that is promoting it to save us all from evil oil.

Too bad you farmers get your market propped up by this boondogle and still whine about money. The big evil fertilizer companies are taking all your money. Cry me a river and get your arse to mailbox and see if your subsidy Uncle Sam crack is in yet!
 
US Senators from SD John Thune and Tim Johnson comment on EPA E15 ruling. http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/news/article_f46c5a3e-d71b-11df-b532-001cc4c002e0.html
 
I've run ethanol in everything I own with a gas motor since it first became available here, however many years ago. The ONLY engine problem I ever had was when the little 5.5 horse Honda that I pump LOOMIX with threw a rod....period. I have a Honda lawnmower that was supposed to have an engine that they said would last 600 hours...well, near as we could figure it had over 3 times that on the motor when we quit using it, cause everything else on it needed repaired/replaced, but that little motor just kept on running. That was a few years back, and we replaced it with a Honda commercial mower that just keeps going and going and going...on ethanol. Chain saw, weed whacker, etc., no problema. And no problems in any of the cars, gas tractors, or gas burner pickups either.

Personally I think the whole load of "ethanol will ruin your engine" thing is horse manure. The oil you use would have a lot more to do with engine problems than whether or not the gas has ethanol blended into it. But I've never had any oil related engine problems, either....but I use Royal Purple synthetic in everything.
 
John SD said:
Heck, now I gotta apologize to all of my engines 'cause I've been ruinin'
'em by feeding them that evil ethanol all these years. :oops: Some of 'em have been drinkin' corn squeezin's for 20 yrs or better and still at it. :roll:

Seriously, I'm shocked to see ag people on this board going along with the rhetoric of the ethanol bashers. :???:

I agree.... Ag groups- like WIFE (women involved in farm economics) and many other Ag groups have fought for years to get ethanol use-and expand our grain crop markets and try to raise prices where crop production is sustainable so folks can stay on the farm ....
 
OT, I agree WIFE is a good grassroots organization. One of the neighbor ladies is very active in WIFE on a national level and is also active on a local level with ag related educational activites for grade school kids in town. She and her husband are bringing the next generation into their ranch operation.
 
I'm all about keeping people on the farm. And I don't know what ethanol will do to larger auto engines. But I can tell you that I had serious carburetor trouble not only with my lawn mower this year, but also my four wheeler. I had to tear them apart multiple times and clean them. My four wheeler is an 07 model and my lawn mower an 08. It is just a small population of engines, but it makes me sit back and go hmmm...

Energy shortage answer is not E15 or E20. We need more solar, nuclear and wind energy captured. I don't want farmers starving and there is a plentiful need for corn without this consumption. I would rather see a decreased cost of production by lowering cost of fertilizer. Not everyone is selling corn but everyone in agriculture is sure feeling the pain of over inflated production costs.
 
They're doing to gasoline what Breyers did to your icecream.... the half gallon ice cream became a quart and a half... and the price went up to boot.

Ethanol has less BTU's of stored energy per gallon.. Physics tell us increasing the percentage of ethanol will give your car less Miles per gallon on a tank of fuel... So you will need more fuel to travel the same distance, and because it is more expensive to make ethanol then it is to refine gasoline, that lower btu gasoline will cost more..

The Car lobby is backing this because Ethanol also destroys engines at an accelerated rate.. Ethanol is hydroscopic and absorbs water, so there is probably more inert water content in your "Gallon" of ethanol laced fuel... Its also highly corrisive.. If you fuel system is not made from Stainless steel and modern polymers then it will reek havoc with the fuel injection or god forbid, Carburetor..

ethanol mix has destroyed countless dirt bikes,atvs,lawnmowers,weedwackers, and outboard marine engines in the last ten years...

Since we know manufacturing new Cars,Atv's,Boat engines,lawnmowers, ect have a far larger carbon footprint then using hardware that has already been manufactured, the whole premise of it being "Environmentally Friendly" is Dubious at best... and an outright fraud at worst.

They are raising the ethanol mix to 15 percent because the agreements in 2005 guaranteed that a fixed amount of ethanol would be consumed and these plants were built on that amount... Demand has dropped and the Ethanol plants aren't making money at current demand levels.... So now the EPA is going to subsidize this LOSER by MANDATING we all support it at the expense of lower gas mileage per gallon and lower service life of our powerplants..

Crony Capitalism strikes again.. (threw that in for OT....Yes the pure as the driven snow government can be involved in crony capitalism...think highway contracts...)
 
My car has 265,000 miles on it, my truck has 197,000 all fueled by ethanol. People want to complain about ethanol ruining engines but it seems vehicles and small engines are lasting longer than ever nowadays. Maybe most of the reason is due to advances in technology but the complaining about ethanol makes no sense.

I also don't blame the high price of corn on ethanol. Corn production has increased along with the increased demand of corn being used for ethanol. If you eliminate ethanol as a market for corn, farmers will switch to other crops that will be more profitable.

A couple years ago bakers were organizing protests against ethanol because it was supposedly the reason for higher wheat prices. But when you look at the facts, the amount of wheat acreage planted had actually gone up. The problem was less wheat was harvested due to a variety of reasons including drought. My point is people want to point at ethanol as the root of all our problems but don't want to acknowledge the facts.
 
Oldtimer said:
John SD said:
Heck, now I gotta apologize to all of my engines 'cause I've been ruinin'
'em by feeding them that evil ethanol all these years. :oops: Some of 'em have been drinkin' corn squeezin's for 20 yrs or better and still at it. :roll:

Seriously, I'm shocked to see ag people on this board going along with the rhetoric of the ethanol bashers. :???:

I agree.... Ag groups- like WIFE (women involved in farm economics) and many other Ag groups have fought for years to get ethanol use-and expand our grain crop markets and try to raise prices where crop production is sustainableso folks can stay on the farm ....

OT, how sustainable are the current high input crop production practices that rely almost entirely on fossil fuel based inputs, 50, 70 , 100 years maybe? Just a thought.
 

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