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SD westriver lockout- OVER??

Jinglebob writes[" Tho' I kind of think you are talking to a wall here, so to speak. :wink:]

Looks to me like both sides are talking to walls.......so to speak. :wink: :lol:

Comparing a game warden checking on a hunter to a strip search in Chicago is quite a reach.......so to speak! :wink: :lol: :lol:
 
SJ said:
Pjoe-- keeps mentioning the landowner sponsored licenses. It was brought up at the west river working group and was talked about in length but to my knowledge talk is as far as it has gone. In fact I don't believe you have a thing to worry about although I don't think it would be as bad as you might think. GF&P just talks to keep one side feeling one way and the other feeling the other way with no intention of doing anything to solve the problems. GF&P needs the hunter to write their paychecks and as long as hunters are willing to buy the licenses without a guarantee of a place to hunt and GF&P can convince the hunters that the landowner is the bad person the problem will not be solved. It's kind of like the old saying; "as long as it works why fix it." Or in other words as long as the hunter is willing to buy the amount of licenses it takes to pay GF&P, without anywhere to hunt, why change it.

This is where I don't agree with you. YOUR lock out ISN'T WORKING. Do you want me to repeat that for you??? THE LOCK OUT ISN"T WORKING. Ones who have signed the agreement, are letting hunters shoot does. They themselfs or family are hunting anyways. Harding county is one of the hardest places to get on private land. BUT Harding county now has more public land as well, with hunters having better success. Look at the surveys for % of tags filled. Not much has changed since you started this dumb idea. Do what you want with you land. It's yours. I don't care if you allow hunting or not. But don't fool yourself into thinking you are getting something done. Because you are not. It is not working. The bill that was introduced failed by a not so small margine.

All I'm trying to say is maybe it's time to go about it a different way. You can only run into a brick wall so many times before it is easier to just go around the thing. Hey just an idea.

Oh, and by the way JB, try looking in the mirror once.
 
Pjoe-- keeps mentioning the landowner sponsored licenses. It was brought up at the west river working group and was talked about in length but to my knowledge talk is as far as it has gone. In fact I don't believe you have a thing to worry about although I don't think it would be as bad as you might think. GF&P just talks to keep one side feeling one way and the other feeling the other way with no intention of doing anything to solve the problems. GF&P needs the hunter to write their paychecks and as long as hunters are willing to buy the licenses without a guarantee of a place to hunt and GF&P can convince the hunters that the landowner is the bad person the problem will not be solved. It's kind of like the old saying; "as long as it works why fix it." Or in other words as long as the hunter is willing to buy the amount of licenses it takes to pay GF&P, without anywhere to hunt, why change it.



Very good SJ.





Hey SJ...........where has anyone said the gfp is trying to convince hunters the landowners are bad? Last i looked, the gfp has went out of their way asking hunters to be sure to ask permission first and has also TRIED to have better relations thru a number of different avenues.....
 
The lockout is working for me or at least for what I wanted. If you don't feel it is working, thats fine.

Hey SJ...........where has anyone said the gfp is trying to convince hunters the landowners are bad? Last i looked, the gfp has went out of their way asking hunters to be sure to ask permission first and has also TRIED to have better relations thru a number of different avenues.....
No where but I don't think I said anyone said it. That is my opinion and mine alone. Why should GF&P go out of there way to ask hunters to be sure to ask permission, I find that most hunters know that with out being told.
 
ya, well, you are also told not to drink and drive and i think everyone knows that also. Its the best intrest of the gfp for the hunters and landowners to have good relations.

The gfp does alot of good. Lakes are stocked accordingly with fish, game is abundant, i sure like the boat ramps at the the lakes (i hunt waterfowl also and use them for hunting) and the beautiful state parks we have in this state. I think there is alot of overhead myself. Most of the parks are manicured nicely. Most of the public shooting areas i hunt are fenced well, but im not sure who is responsible for the fencing. I would think the ones who want to keep the cattle in their land would be responsible for that. Signs need to be put up and hopefully not shot up by slobs. Road blocks need to be put up during certain times to check hunters, Pheasant counts need to take place so the world can find out we have more birds than anywhere and the small towns can reap the rewards, alot of miles is put in by the wardens just looking and watching......
 
SJ said:
The lockout is working for me or at least for what I wanted. If you don't feel it is working, thats fine.


What has the lockout done for you? You couldn't close hunting on your land by yourself? I agree that something has to be done to secure our land rights. I am not so sure that the lock out is going to get it done.

Fifty people could chase 1 cow around the pasture all day and not catch her, but the guy that comes in on a horse and a rope can have it done in 10 minutes. All I'm saying is maybe it is time to quit the 50 people and go get a horse. :wink:
 
I don't need to be told not to drink and drive.

I agree GF&P does good things.

I did close my property myself.

Why do hunters have sportsmen's groups?
 
sj wrote:GF&P charges for hunting with very little overhead as far as the continued existence of the wildlife ( food). As they continue to get more land they will charge more for the license. Yet no one seems to mind.

That tells me you know little about how a game dept runs, little overhead? If it where not for the crp program you would not have near the numbers of many wildlife species. Deer are "edge" oriented creatures take away the "edge" and you will have far fewer deer per sq mile. Go back to mono habitat and you will have less deer per sq mile as you don't have the food or habitat you get from creating edge in many forms.

Yesterday a man stopped me and we talked about the wildlife in his area and how out of control it was he said that he used to get a second cutting of alfalfa now he calls "the deer his second cutting". His only choice is to charge for hunting to cut his loses. Is that wrong?

No if he wants to keep the cycle going he can surely charge for hunting, but he could get more bang for his buck by not charging and having all hunters who enter shoot a doe, then after the drought is over in your state he will get that second cutting. Pay to hunt is not a deer reduction tool, it is buck managment practice to get repeat customers.
 
fulton said:
Yeah thank god for all the crp we have in Northwestern SD. We would definately be lost with out it. :roll:

What??? Don't you have 80 or 160 acres of CRP land our their? :lol: :lol: :lol: :D
 
Happy: sj wrote:GF&P charges for hunting with very little overhead as far as the continued existence of the wildlife ( food). As they continue to get more land they will charge more for the license. Yet no one seems to mind.

That tells me you know little about how a game dept runs, little overhead? If it where not for the crp program you would not have near the numbers of many wildlife species. Deer are "edge" oriented creatures take away the "edge" and you will have far fewer deer per sq mile. Go back to mono habitat and you will have less deer per sq mile as you don't have the food or habitat you get from creating edge in many forms.
This tells me how little you know about western South Dakota. There is very little CRP in our area and most of what is here is being taken out because ranchers need the grazing much more than they need the government check. What you said about "less deer per sq mile" sounds pretty good to us. In fact, if the deer and antelope disappeared from our pastures completely we would be tickled because they are an extreme economic burden on us. We receive absolutely nothing from anyone for the expense of the pasture and hay loss incurred or the repairs to fences and vehicles caused by damage from the public's wildlife. Frankly, we're darn sick of raising YOUR livestock and getting nothing but grief from GF&P and slob hunters in return.

Happy:
sj: Yesterday a man stopped me and we talked about the wildlife in his area and how out of control it was he said that he used to get a second cutting of alfalfa now he calls "the deer his second cutting". His only choice is to charge for hunting to cut his loses. Is that wrong?
No if he wants to keep the cycle going he can surely charge for hunting, but he could get more bang for his buck by not charging and having all hunters who enter shoot a doe, then after the drought is over in your state he will get that second cutting. Pay to hunt is not a deer reduction tool, it is buck managment practice to get repeat customers.
Hunting itself is not a deer management tool, a fact that has been proven over and over. The only thing that will reduce the deer population is if GF&P would ONLY issue doe licenses and that is not going to happen because, regardless of what hunters tell you, most of them are after horns and not meat. GF&P is not going to do any management on their own because as long as they can sell licenses to shoot bucks hunters will keep hunting and the last thing GF&P wants to do is lose revenue.
 
liberty bell said:
This tells me how little you know about western South Dakota. There is very little CRP in our area and most of what is here is being taken out because ranchers need the grazing much more than they need the government check. What you said about "less deer per sq mile" sounds pretty good to us. In fact, if the deer and antelope disappeared from our pastures completely we would be tickled because they are an extreme economic burden on us. We receive absolutely nothing from anyone for the expense of the pasture and hay loss incurred or the repairs to fences and vehicles caused by damage from the public's wildlife. Frankly, we're darn sick of raising YOUR livestock and getting nothing but grief from GF&P and slob hunters in return.

I was just joking about the CRP. I know how little CRP land their is out there. He is from out of state and doesn't know better.

Please show me how you come up with EXTREME in your economic burden. I am not saying that they are not an economic burden to you, they are, but define EXTREME.

Liberty Belle said:
Hunting itself is not a deer management tool, a fact that has been proven over and over. The only thing that will reduce the deer population is if GF&P would ONLY issue doe licenses and that is not going to happen because, regardless of what hunters tell you, most of them are after horns and not meat. GF&P is not going to do any management on their own because as long as they can sell licenses to shoot bucks hunters will keep hunting and the last thing GF&P wants to do is lose revenue.

Show me that fact. How can you sit there and try to tell anyone that the taking of 500 to 1000 deer in you county alone is not a management tool. How many more deer do you think would be smacked on the road if it wasn't for hunters.

GF&P does issue anterless deer tags. They convert any deer tags into anterless for a week after the regular season and again for 2 weeks in January. What county are you in excatly and I will be more then happy to tell you the number of anterless tags that are issued and the number that were filled in 2004.

Pro pheasants is a county by county oraganization. They are not polictally motivated. Their only pupose is to increase the pheasant population within the chapters county. They have a banquet evey year, and the money that is genereated goes back to the purchase of pheasants and chicks to be released by members in that county. They pay for half of the chicks cost that members buy, and the leftover they use to buy and release hens. No money has ever been donated or used for politcal purposes. It is a locally controlled chapter.

Pheasant's forever is a joke and a scam. They do nothing for the middle class working man. My kids and I would and never will belong.
 
Faster horses said:
Good question, LB. The PF chapter here is so worried about being politically correct they won't support a coyote calling contest.
Makes NO SENSE.

Our Pro pheasant has before. They have also sponsored a predator hunt. It lasted for 3 weekends and the pair that registered the most kills won $500. Pro pheasants is a completly different org than PF.
 
Happy--That tells me you know little about how a game dept runs, little overhead? If it where not for the crp program you would not have near the numbers of many wildlife species. Deer are "edge" oriented creatures take away the "edge" and you will have far fewer deer per sq mile. Go back to mono habitat and you will have less deer per sq mile as you don't have the food or habitat you get from creating edge in many forms.



I didn't realize GF&P funded CRP.


Whether I know little or lot is just a perception on your part. My perception is that some are more easily convinced than others. When the game dept. chooses to set the number of licenses available before the count, tells me the bottom line is more important than wildlife numbers. Explain the edge and mono habitat.

Happy--No if he wants to keep the cycle going he can surely charge for hunting, but he could get more bang for his buck by not charging and having all hunters who enter shoot a doe, then after the drought is over in your state he will get that second cutting. Pay to hunt is not a deer reduction tool, it is buck managment practice to get repeat customers.


I will agree pay to hunt (GF&P license sales) is not a deer reduction tool. I think our biggest difference in this thread is that the wildlife doesn't directly affect your livelihood.


I don't know anything about Pro Pheasants.

At one of the West River Working Group meetings, a guy who belonged to the Pheasants Forever got up and spoke. He claimed they needed more property for the disadvantaged kids (such as Joe the janitor's kid who couldn't afford to hunt). He stated that some of the property available was overrun with hunters and some of it wasn't especially good. He stated pheasant hunts were running a100 dollars a day. They were giving GF&P 30,000 dollars to get more property or public access to property.

I sat and listened to this and wondered why they would give 30,000 dollars to GF&P for property that would be overrun with hunters or not especially good pheasant hunting. I wondered why they didn't give 300 disadvantaged kids a good 100 dollar a day hunt.
 
Crp is one of many programs available to landowners, many more exists in many areas of the US. CRP is paid for by "ALL" taxpayers. "Edge" is what the referance was too, could be alfalfa,sunflowers,oats, spring/winter wheat, milo, sorghum etc. The more "edge" the more deer. The fact that crp also creates cover along witht he "edge" attributes is what makes it so benefical for much wildlife. Mono habitat is large tracts of one cover type. Large tracts of timber, they will support less deer than areas with "edge" or varying habitat. Checker board types of ground will have much higher deer ratios and can support more deer. Could be range land against,sunflowers,against alfalfa,against a wooded creek bottom etc.

Deer hunting is a management tool has been and will be. If you don't think a pile of doe's get taken each fall in all states then you need to look up the facts. Without those doe's being harvested you would have far more deer/human issues to deal with that is a fact. Doesn't matter which state or part of that state. For every doe harvested you lower the pop modestly by 2.1 deer.

You state in one sense you don't want the check, then you state how much an economic burden deer are to your cattle business? Which way you want it? Paid or not paid? Tell me the dollar amount these deer and goats cost you each year? What would be a nice dollar amount you should receive in compensation?

In fact, if the deer and antelope disappeared from our pastures completely we would be tickled because they are an extreme economic burden on us. We receive absolutely nothing from anyone for the expense of the pasture and hay loss incurred or the repairs to fences and vehicles caused by damage from the public's wildlife.

Vehicle/deer issues are not just your problem, it is nation wide and Ohio/PA leads the way with more than any other state. SD doesn't rank in the top 10 in that catagory. The publics wildlife is being funded in many ways from hunters LB what has it cost you out of pocket in taxes to look after the wildlife in your state? You must remember the wildlife was there long before any of us. The species adapt and that is what is causing problems, not to mention the 2 biggest factors on the numbers are 1.hunters and 2.weather. Take both of these out and you would have serious issues to deal with. I have seen protected areas with no hunting and mild weather where deer have eaten out house and homes, where the gene pool doesn't fork and you have some really weird looking deer and the worst deer antlers one could imagine. There body size is less than half of normal and disease problems are major concerns.

I know to some a sterile enviroment would fit "there" needs but wildlife is important to the majority of Americans, besides decimation of a species would not really benefit anyone. Every state fights to find the balance one both sides can live with, the producers and the sportsman. I can tell you paid to hunt primary buck operations aren't helping with the overall population of deer or antelope.
 

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