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" We also have one of the best trace back systems for our beef with the CFIA (Canadian food inspection agency) and the CCIA (Canadian cattle identification agency). Our trace back system is far superior to the USA's, being that we actually have one and the United States doesn't."
This seem to be the bone of contention, so she says Canada has a trace back system and cites the CCIA.
Not saying that the USA can't eventually find an animal but that they don't have a individual animal Trace Back system similar in scope to the CCIA.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
" We also have one of the best trace back systems for our beef with the CFIA (Canadian food inspection agency) and the CCIA (Canadian cattle identification agency). Our trace back system is far superior to the USA's, being that we actually have one and the United States doesn't."
This seem to be the bone of contention, so she says Canada has a trace back system and cites the CCIA.
Not saying that the USA can't eventually find an animal but that they don't have a individual animal Trace Back system similar in scope to the CCIA.
Click to expand...

I agree with what Cordy has said here as well.
There is no 100% guarantee that an unbranded, non tagged or tattooed US born cow that's gone thru multiple owners can be traced from start to finish.
 
Nope the world has few guarantees. I'm shocked by the trace back investigations that have been done sometimes - down in Kansas they've used DNA ( likely everywhere else but I only know about Kansas) I wouldn't argue an individual animal Id registry would have to be superior even though rfid can also be moved. Probably overkill, but that's a matter of opinion. Mostly in the U.S. Supply chain, the individidual id would be a firewall on recalls, and help the tax collector. I take earls insinuation that animals are mishandled without their market differentiating special certification. Equally, beef safety in the U.S. Supply chain shouldn't be impuned with innuendo and insinuation or out and out lies like the U.S. Hasn't trace back. I shudder to imagine the detail the IRS would gather to get paid.
 
Wow Brad. Calling a guy a liar is pretty much outa line. If ya did that to me, sitting in the coffee shop, we probably would have more than words. :) Everything the federal government touches in the good ol USA turns to crap pretty quickly. I am surprised they could find their own shoes. While Canada is a competitor with us when is comes to beef, we can compete fairly and without the personal attacks. Neither system is perfect and will always be a work in progress. But both countries raise world class beef. Both countries are valuable allies to each other and have been for longer than our lives combined. Instead of throwing around accusations and being a keyboard tough guy, why don't you expound on the vast merits of our traceback system that you keep telling us all you know so much about? And then maybe stop acting like some damn junior high kid, take a midol and have a half way intelligent conversation with us? For what its worth, I have followed your posts on the volatility of the cattle market with interest. You appear to have a lot of good info in the grey matter under your hat and I have learned a lot from you. But for hell sakes be civil! If you take offense at my rant, I cant blame ya. But Big Muddy and Gcreek are just 2 of the best folks that kick around this site and the planet. I wouldn't be much of a friend if I didn't stick up for them. Even if they are Canadians! :)
 
I smile as I remember one of the initial meetings I went to where Premise ID and such were being discussed. The moderators/panel were trying really hard to show that not much would need changed. There was a lot more being said that I don't remember.

At a point I was able to ask a question of them. I had worked in Food processing and was really familiar with product holds and trying to contain problems. My basic question was if such a system allowed us to quickly identify the problem and release cattle that aren't actually at risk, wouldn't that save a lot of time and money. They all said "Yes".

My follow up was, "Well, if it is such a savings, why are you content with the status quo?"

It's been awhile, but as I recall, it seemed to take quite some time to resume the flow of trade of cattle in Washington State after the first cow in Grandview.

Anyways, it is interesting to have the perspective of living since then versus at the time not knowing what the future would be.
 
Leanin h

"Wow Brad. Calling a guy a liar is pretty much outa line. If ya did that to me, sitting in the coffee shop, we probably would have more than words"

Frankly an honest person wouldn't say the U.S. doesnt have trace back. How many bse cows did the U.S. Trace back to Canada? What the hell was that? Yes, they were traced back to their origin. Therefore, only a liar would make such untrue statements that the U.S. didn't trace back. "If we were sittin wherever" and you lied about the U.S. Beef industry, you'd probably deserve "more than words."

As I paticiently explained earlier, the obvious beef trace back examples in the U.S. clearly render the claim, the U.S. hasnt trace back, a lie
 
I respectfully disagree. The writer of the original piece is entitled to her opinion. You calling her a liar is silly in my opinion. You have a fine evening.
 
Brad S said:
Frankly an honest person wouldn't say the U.S. doesnt have trace back. How many bse cows did the U.S. Trace back to Canada? What the hell was that? Yes, they were traced back to their origin. Therefore, only a liar would make such untrue statements that the U.S. didn't trace back. "If we were sittin wherever" and you lied about the U.S. Beef industry, you'd probably deserve "more than words."

As I paticiently explained earlier, the obvious beef trace back examples in the U.S. clearly render the claim, the U.S. hasnt trace back, a lie
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I don't post on here much and don't want to get in the middle of your pissing match but I would say that the U.S.tracing back a Canadian cow to its point of origin when they have Canada's CCIA tag and trace back system in place to make that cow trackable......says absolutely nothing as to the ability of the U.S.being able to trace one of their own non tagged, non tattooed and unbranded cows back to the herd of origin 100% of the time.
It's not going to happen.

There was a time when I was against the implementation of a trace back system. When it was first talked about up here we were going to get $12 tags to put in $400 calves. I wasn't real wild on the idea of handing over 3% of my calf check for an ear tag.
The tags came in and they cheapened up a bunch.
Since then I've been in a quarantine situation due to a TB infected heifer (initial stages of the disease) of mine being found in a Washington State slaughter house.
The trace back started and ended with my cow.
After 8 months of testing NO other TB infected cattle were found in my cow herd.
Zero consideration was given by U.S.officials that the disease was contracted in the feedlot while she was in contact with thousands of Born & Bred in the U.S.
Bovines.
No cattle were looked at or tested on the U.S.side of the border.
I got a real expensive lesson in how the U.S.trace back system works on Canadian cattle...but you know what Brad S...I sleep good at night because I'm not BS'ing my family and friends.
 
I'm curious, just how do you know "zero consideration was given ...."

How many of the other cattle in the feed yard were found with tb?
 
leanin' H said:
I respectfully disagree. The writer of the original piece is entitled to her opinion. You calling her a liar is silly in my opinion. You have a fine evening.
Click to expand...


The fact the U.S. has traced back cattle isn't a matter of opinion. Denying such a fact is a lie - lie telling = what?
 
I didn't participate in Debate in high school, as it wasn't offered in our very small, declining school in the mid-'50's, but believe there are methods to argue points without calling names. Disagree without being disagreeable seems a good idea, when possible.

Calling someone a liar is a dicey business, at best in this situation. How does one know when the person making the contested statement or comment is lying, or simply disagrees, or is misinformed and believes what she/he is saying?

In any case, it is probably that Canada has a better system, at this time, for tracing ALL cattle in their country, than does the USA.

Given the differences in size of area where cattle are raised between the two countries, numbers of cattle, sizes of herds, etc. it obviously will be a bigger problem to get all cattle in the USA truly identified, and within one system, imo. I think of the huge number of people raising from one or two head, to even 40 or so in virtually any of the 50 states, with each state, and many counties having jurisdiction, and often more than a little disdainful of federal 'interference', it IS going to be a 'daunting task'. Throw in the vocal activists who hate any ag organization not aligned with their own, there will be plenty of hot air, vitriol, and any progress will be very hard won , imo.

mrj
 
Brad S said:
I'm curious, just how do you know "zero consideration was given ...."

How many of the other cattle in the feed yard were found with tb?
Click to expand...

Brad S, if you want to argue this I've got the paperwork to back my claim up.
The USDA took the ludicrous stance that there was no contact between a pen of Canadian cattle and any U.S.ones in the lot even though working facilities, water bowls etc were shared from one end of the lot to the other.
Canada's CFIA vet that was involved in the investigation and the cattle broker that placed the heifer in the lot both agreed that "ALL" cattle in that lot were co mingled from the loading chute on.
Your USDA vets closed the door on any trace back of cattle within that lot.
The same lot, a short time before was backgrounding breeding heifers (dairy) out of California as well as beef replacement heifers from Washington,Oregon,Idaho and California.
Some of the farms in California where these heifers came from were nailed with TB.
The interesting part was that some of these breeding heifers disappeared out of the system (untraceable) and the feedlot carried on with business as usual.
My point being that the U.S.has "NO" sure fire trace back system in place but I guess one is not really needed if a blind eye is going to be turned to your own problems.
As for implementing a trace back program in the U.S. where there are 10X the producers raising 10X the cattle.....get a Canadian to show you how to "get her done".....we already have.
 
"Calling someone a liar is a dicey business, at best in this situation. How does one know when the person making the contested statement or comment is lying, or simply disagrees, or is misinformed and believes what she/he is saying?"

This is really simple. If you said "the soup is hot," but I thought it was warm, that's a difference of opinion. If you deny a demonstrable fact, that's a lie. It's a demonstrable fact the U.S. has traced back cattle - even using DNA (the surest method of trace back). To address my point, the only thing pertinent or necessary is (yes or no) the the U.S. has or hasn't traced back cattle. We all know the U.S. has traced back cattle - no one here has made an utterance to the contrary. Why, we all know the U.S. Has traced back cattle. Thus we all know the claim that the U.S.doesnt have trace back is a demonstrable lie.

So rather than honorably sticking to the logical constraints of the issue, some attempt to throw shade on the U.S. Cattle industry (that's opinion) by contorting the issue with whatever claim that isn't "the U.S. has never traced back cattle"

Ponder this: Canada has what they seem to think is the gold standard of trace back if I'm to go by the braggotry about it here. RFID tags and recordings and all the rest. What if Mexico adopted a trace back system that included DNA recording. You see, a mischief maker can adulterate a tag or an implant, but DNA is less changeable. So, what would we say about the Mexican that said "Canada doesn't have trace back?" We'd say that's a damn lie - they have fine trace back. To which, the Mexican wouldn't address the issue, but totally dodge the issue by making a joke about tags being less certain than DNA prints (which may be a fact, but doesn't mean Canada doesn't have trace back).

I see time and again, some of our northern neighbors seize the opportunity to throw shade on the U.S. Cattle industry. Shade is shade, I don't care the source. I'd be just as offended if some Hollywood communist was making untrue comments (lie) about U.S. beef.
 
TB in CA likely came from Mexico. There is a real simple answer for how to stop importation of disease from other countries. Perhaps (next) president Trump would be open to suggestions.
 
The way I have read this thread, some have stated the USA doesn't have trace back. Whether it was stated that simply or not, the implication is clearly that we do not have a verifiable, legal, all cattle included, unalterable system with means of identification of each bovine critter which makes government employees able to track the animal back to whence it originated.

Do we, or do we not have that system in place now? I don't think we do. I wish we did.

That said, when did that TB situation mentioned occur? Is it recent enough to quibble about? And how often do such events occur, say in the past five years? Is it something that needs corrected and maybe dealt with differently? Sounds like it might. If we are going to argue, though, I'd rather be sure it is a current, real problem that needs to be corrected. ANYTIME government employees/regulators and the people they are supposed to be regulating are not doing things the way they are supposed to.....we have problems!!!! And, I for one, want them corrected.

mrj
 
We absolutely do not have the trace back you ask about mrj. I think to reach the standard you reference, we'd need DNA prints on record - like some horse registries.

I can only read what was written, and can't create an unwritten intention. Remember, the original position was "ours is better than theirs because they don't have any." This in response (and this is importent) to a preference of US beef over Canadian beef. I think the preference stated was stupid, and the trace back response didn't even address the specious preference (no consumer reference should really be dismissed as specious). Anyway, the letter writer was clearly disgusted by earls insinuation that U.S. beef is in some humane handling way superior to Canadian beef. Virtually all cattle producers would agree with the letter writer at this point. Then the letter writer pivots to trace back - that doesn't address the humane treatment issue. Is the letter writer so confused to think it does? Hell no. That was the "well, my dad can beat up your dad" diversionary pivot. Because the trace back issue was raised as part of the diversionary pivot (that tactic isn't honest or clever) the writer made the false statement the U.S. hasnt trace back. Because this false statement was part of a diversionary tactic and in no way addressed humane treatment, the statement's purpose should be considered dishonest. Diversionary tactics are not honest.

Had the writer simply noted: "cattle producers, Canadian and U.S. alike, have a deep commitment to animal health and wellbeing. Earls sleazy attempt at market distinction is offensive to American and Canadian cattlemen and frankly consumers who value honesty from suppliers." The writer would have had the impact of truth.
 
mrj, to answer your question on the TB issue, it was in May 2008.

Angus 62, your suggestion to stop importation is in the true spirit of R-Calf mentality.

Brad S, you may think you have the answers, and I know I do not but the bottom line is the U.S. does not have an infallible trace back system in place.
I will agree with you that ear tags can fail but they're a long ways ahead of nothing.

All this banter back and forth on who has the better beef, cattle health and trace back brings to mind a story I'd like to pass on from about 10 years ago.
In my other life, when I'm not raising cattle, I guide big game hunters. In 2006, one of the clients was a cattle rancher from Wyoming. A hard core member of the R-Calf group and when he learned I raised cattle in BC it became a bit tense to put it lightly.
BSE was still like salt in a wound to me and he was one of Bullards puppets.
Anyhow...after 4 or 5 days of pretty much silence we started to BS a bit and eventually the BSE topic came up. I listened to him and he listened to what I had to say, neither of us agreeing with the others view on the topic at that time.
What sticks in my mind still today is what he said at the end of the hunt just before he got in the bush plane to fly out.
His words were "You know what, we're not telling the truth at home about BSE".
In the end I gained a friend that I still have today and Bill Bullard lost a supporter.
The sooner all cattle producers get off their high horse and come to the realization that North America has one cattle herd and we manage it the same in all 3 countries...the better off we will be.
 
bearvalley said:
mrj, to answer your question on the TB issue, it was in May 2008.

Angus 62, your suggestion to stop importation is in the true spirit of R-Calf mentality.

Brad S, you may think you have the answers, and I know I do not but the bottom line is the U.S. does not have an infallible trace back system in place.
I will agree with you that ear tags can fail but they're a long ways ahead of nothing.

All this banter back and forth on who has the better beef, cattle health and trace back brings to mind a story I'd like to pass on from about 10 years ago.
In my other life, when I'm not raising cattle, I guide big game hunters. In 2006, one of the clients was a cattle rancher from Wyoming. A hard core member of the R-Calf group and when he learned I raised cattle in BC it became a bit tense to put it lightly.
BSE was still like salt in a wound to me and he was one of Bullards puppets.
Anyhow...after 4 or 5 days of pretty much silence we started to BS a bit and eventually the BSE topic came up. I listened to him and he listened to what I had to say, neither of us agreeing with the others view on the topic at that time.
What sticks in my mind still today is what he said at the end of the hunt just before he got in the bush plane to fly out.
His words were "You know what, we're not telling the truth at home about BSE".
In the end I gained a friend that I still have today and Bill Bullard lost a supporter.
The sooner all cattle producers get off their high horse and come to the realization that North America has one cattle herd and we manage it the same in all 3 countries...the better off we will be.
Click to expand...

Great post, bearvalley.
 

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