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"Brad S, you may think you have the answers, and I know I do not but the bottom line is the U.S. does not have an infallible trace back system in place.
I will agree with you that ear tags can fail but they're a long ways ahead of nothing."

I don't know why I'm the subject of your post, I merely addressed a lie - that should be the subject of any post to me. Not Frank Zappa music or whatever. As for the need to DNA print or whatever, I'm not going to be drawn that rabbit hole. I merely resent defamation about the U.S. Cattle industry and said so. This attempt to dumb me to death with ancillary issues is curious
 
Brad S said:
"Brad S, you may think you have the answers, and I know I do not but the bottom line is the U.S. does not have an infallible trace back system in place.
I will agree with you that ear tags can fail but they're a long ways ahead of nothing."

I don't know why I'm the subject of your post, I merely addressed a lie - that should be the subject of any post to me. Not Frank Zappa music or whatever. As for the need to DNA print or whatever, I'm not going to be drawn that rabbit hole. I merely resent defamation about the U.S. Cattle industry and said so. This attempt to dumb me to death with ancillary issues is curious
Click to expand...



When you can't dazzle with brilliance, you baffle with BS.

Brad S, why don't you just admit you may be slightly mistaken.

Only because you are. You first stated the US can and has traced back anything they need to at any time. Now you are stating they have done it a time or two....
 
Brad S said:
I don't know why I'm the subject of your post, I merely addressed a lie - that should be the subject of any post to me. Not Frank Zappa music or whatever. As for the need to DNA print or whatever, I'm not going to be drawn that rabbit hole. I merely resent defamation about the U.S. Cattle industry and said so. This attempt to dumb me to death with ancillary issues is curious
Click to expand...

There's a real simple answer to your question...you called a fellow rancher a liar when she questioned the U.S.ability to trace a cow to its herd of origin.
You made the statement that the U.S.has a trace back system...I called BS.
Several of your fellow U.S.cattlemen have also posted on this thread that the ability to track a cow throughout its life is lacking south of the 49th parallel.
I respect that acknowledgement coming from them.
As for DNA, I wouldn't want to go there either. I've had to deal with DNA on horse registrations and it's a pain in the ass.
I also go along with you on resenting defamation of the cattle industry, and believe me the industry on this side of the border has had its share of kicks.
The implementation of a trace back tagging program for health reasons is relatively painless for a producer to do....so why not do it if there's nothing to hide.
 
I don't see the DNA hurdle, and I've used it too. I know it's cut down on a lot of mischief.

Please read my post. I've never said the U.S. had perfect or efficient trace back, but the fact the U.S. has traced back cattle proves the U.S. has trace back - in abject contradiction to the letter writing claim.
Yes, either I am a liar or the person claiming the U.S. has no trace back is a liar. There is no middle ground.

As for the U.S. adopting a Canadian style or even aqha trace back system? I'm not sure we need one, or that it would be beneficial. It might be beneficial occasionally. the TB issue, immediate trace back would save some money, but they'll catch the tb critters on the floor so that wouldn't be a food safety issue. I can't say with clarity, erring on the side of caution is logical. In the Information age, data costs almost nothing. All that makes sense to id. Here in the U.S., government intrusion and tyranny and growth are at crisis levels. Levels way beyond issues of food safety. I know recalls are expensive, but I don't see any thinking American putting more power in the goverent in this post constitutional era. Simply said, until we put a bridal on government intrusions, we must not give the government more control and power to abuse.
 
I think one of the biggest differences is just in sheer human population size between our countries. The Canadian system works pretty well, although not perfectly and it is certainly not leveraged like it can be. In my eyes, the US does not have a "system" per se, although I am sure traceback works similarly to how we used to (and still do) a lot of it through brand inspection. However you do have 320 million consumers and can eat your way out of a border closure. Not so much for Canada, as our industry is extremely trade dependent. I am aware of several US programs that do offer traceback, but not on a national scale (Eg: Red Angus Association tags). As well, there are lots of states with very weak (non-existent) brand inspection, just as there are provinces in Canada, however we do have a national traceability database for food safety and disease outbreak.
If the consuming public in the US demands that beef is traceable I expect that either USDA or the producers themselves will adopt an industry or at least statewide system (depending on the state).
We use DNA extensively here for our own purposes and it has tremendous power. You can identify the dam and sire of any calf, breed makeup of replacements, full pedigree, trait information, disease resistance and solve problems. An example: Yesterday I had a 7 year old cow that stole a heifer's new calf, then calved and walked away from her own calf. I do not know which heifer is the dam of the first calf, so I have the cow and created her a set of twins this afternoon. With DNA I will know the dam and the sire of each calf and can cull accordingly. I can even (God Forbid) find the dam of an abortion or the sire of a difficult calving. It also can provide security against cattle theft (provided you can find the animal to sample).
 
I believe in calling a spade a spade. Disinformation and lies fall in one category to me.

I agree whole heartedly with Brads statement,

Brad S said:
Here in the U.S., government intrusion and tyranny and growth are at crisis levels. Levels way beyond issues of food safety. I know recalls are expensive, but I don't see any thinking American putting more power in the goverent in this post constitutional era. Simply said, until we put a bridal on government intrusions, we must not give the government more control and power to abuse.
Click to expand...

Brad, you just need to remember those in Canada do not understand the freedom our Founders intended for us, They are a lot further down the left path than we are today. But we are headed in their direction at lightning speed nowadays. HealthCare for example.

What could ever go wrong with a computer, software, electronic id system?????? One 14 year old hacker from the Philippines could have more fun than a tornado in a trailer park with a system like that. Or it could all be securely backed up on Hillary's home server. Perhaps she is funding her campaign with Canadian dollars?

Anyone have a credit card? They are secure, right???

Makes a brand system with a paper trail seem like the new gold standard possibly.

The first problem with the National Id system that was floated here in the states was premise registration. Nothing more than a giant land grab by the Federal Government. A premises by some definitions is land held by a tenant. I see land as property, something our founders intended for us to have RIGHTS to. Do we see property rights in the news today and the Government infringing on those rights????

Seems plenty of Americans have drank the politically correct cool aid. One who tells lies or spreads disinformation, is a liar.

PS, I love you Canadians, been there twice, great friendly people, and I believe they have great cattle as well. I am not name calling any northerners on this forum, just the gal who wrote the original subject matter, However I am embarrassed of some of me fellow Americans in this thread.
 
A real good read as to the effectiveness of the U.S.ability to trace back cattle are the USDA/APHIS summaries' on the 4 cases of BSE found in the USA.
It's quite ironic that the 2003 Washinton State cow that had Canadian origin and tagging traceability was pretty much a slam dunk investigation.
In the other 3 cases....Texas 2005, Alabama 2006, Califoria 2012 there looks to be one common occurrence.
The word "untraceable" seemed to keep popping up.
I'm not "flounder" and I dislike government intervention as much as anyone but I would suggest that the 2 posters on this thread that seem to want to call Cordy out as a "liar" for stating that the U.S.has no National trace back program....are full right up to their ears.
The sad part of reality is that when and if the door slams shut on U.S.beef due to a health issue, the cattlemen on this side of the border are going to feel the financial crunch again.
PS, rightwinger82, I travel on the same citizenship passport as you so there's no need for this debate to become to patriotic.
 
Proving the U.S. has crappy or really crappy or really really crappy trace back proves my point - "a claim that the U.S. Has no trace back is a damn lie"

I have a crappy bicicle so I have a bicycle?

I won't go down that rabbit hole for purposes of this discussion. The only issue is has the U.S. Any form of trace back. Obviously the ocv tags offer excellent trace back. Thus, the U.S.has trace back. Now modify the claim to whatever irrelevant qualifier and that issue is entirely different and impertinent to the issue of the honesty of the original writer.
 
gcreekrch said:
Brad S said:
"Brad S, you may think you have the answers, and I know I do not but the bottom line is the U.S. does not have an infallible trace back system in place.
I will agree with you that ear tags can fail but they're a long ways ahead of nothing."

I don't know why I'm the subject of your post, I merely addressed a lie - that should be the subject of any post to me. Not Frank Zappa music or whatever. As for the need to DNA print or whatever, I'm not going to be drawn that rabbit hole. I merely resent defamation about the U.S. Cattle industry and said so. This attempt to dumb me to death with ancillary issues is curious
Click to expand...



When you can't dazzle with brilliance, you baffle with BS.

Brad S, why don't you just admit you may be slightly mistaken.

Only because you are. You first stated the US can and has traced back anything they need to at any time. Now you are stating they have done it a time or two....
Click to expand...


Whoa, kindly prove that assertion "You first stated the US can and has traced back anything they need to at any time. Now you are stating they have done it a time or two....[/quote]"
 
"I'm not "flounder" and I dislike government intervention as much as anyone but I would suggest that the 2 posters on this thread that seem to want to call Cordy out as a "liar" for stating that the U.S.has no National trace back program....are full right up to their ears.
The sad part of reality is that when and if the door slams shut on U.S.beef due to a health issue, the cattlemen on this side of the border are going to feel the financial crunch again.
PS, rightwinger82, I travel on the same citizenship passport as you so there's no need for this debate to become to patriotic."

I'd suggest pointing out there exists a cultural difference between Canadian and American approach to liberty isn't an appeal patriotism.

Second, I didn't call the writer out for saying the U.S. Has "no national trace back," I called the writer out for saying the U.S. Hasnt trace back. I cited ocv tags as an example of us trace back, which btw, is a national system. Please don't try to finish killings with stupidity by incerting more qualifiers. I know ocv aren't universal, but that qualifier wasn't part of the original lie.

Does "full up to the ears" mean literate?
 
Brad S said:
I didn't call the writer out for saying the U.S. Has "no national trace back," I called the writer out for saying the U.S. Hasnt trace back. I cited ocv tags as an example of us trace back, which btw, is a national system. Please don't try to finish killings with stupidity by incerting more qualifiers. I know ocv aren't universal, but that qualifier wasn't part of the original lie.

Does "full up to the ears" mean literate?
Click to expand...

Here's what she said for a refresher;
"Canada raises and sells some of the best beef in the world. We also have one of the best trace back systems for our beef with the CFIA (Canadian food inspection agency) and the CCIA (Canadian cattle identification agency).Our trace back system is far superior to the USA's, being that we actually have one and the United States doesn't."
......and further down she goes on to say;
"So why as Canadians should we be ok with supporting the importation of American beef into our restaurants when the USA does not have a National beef traceability program..."

The way I read it the writer is pointing out that Canada does have a National trace back system in place and the U.S.does not.
Unless you've got a trace back system that's mandatory and the application of it is consistent throughout the entire U.S.cattle herd any claim that one is in place is BS.

Read the final reports on the 4 BSE cases in the United States and you will see how soon the trace back on an unbranded, untagged cow of solid color comes to a grinding halt. Or the no longer existent Holstein herd mates that became "untraceable"

Just to be clear, I believe in a border that's open both ways...equally.
I don't have a problem eating a U.S.raised steak up here or a Canadian one if its on a plate in the States.
There is no difference in the quality of beef being produced in either country, so what's the issue with getting on the same page.

Should we be questioning the word "literate" or should the word be "comprehend"?
 
The ocv tags are national. (USDA) and offer fantastic trace back. Thus this latest resurrection attempt fails. Now say she meant universal and comprehensive and some other things that aren't written. Again, the U.S. has traced back cattle -prima facia evidence of trace back.


I completely agree that location doesn't dictate quality - good beef is a fungible commodity. To the protectionists I've long held that a prohibition on Canadian beef merely perverted market channels but didn't eliminate the competition. Thus the ban merely moved market share and made market channels less efficient. The steak that was not allowed to come into the U.S. didn't cease to exist - it just was sold in Japan or wherever. Trying to trade protect against a fungible product makes as much sense as digging a hole in a lake. The water you remove gets filled in by other water - pretty soon the water you previously scooped is filling in for water you are currently scooping. Nothing I've written should be confused as Canadian bashing - Canadian and U.S. Producers suffer similar situations. Producers serving freeloaders to the empowerment of socialists.
 
I can agree with this quote,

bearvalley said:
Just to be clear, I believe in a border that's open both ways...equally.
I don't have a problem eating a U.S.raised steak up here or a Canadian one if its on a plate in the States.
There is no difference in the quality of beef being produced in either country, so what's the issue with getting on the same page.
Click to expand...

So you agree with Earl's decision to source product from the States.

The problem is your actions to defend the author of the original subject matter as she degrades the American system and Earls restaurants choice. Actions speak louder than words.
 
rightwinger82 said:
I can agree with this quote,

bearvalley said:
Just to be clear, I believe in a border that's open both ways...equally.
I don't have a problem eating a U.S.raised steak up here or a Canadian one if its on a plate in the States.
There is no difference in the quality of beef being produced in either country, so what's the issue with getting on the same page.
Click to expand...

So you agree with Earl's decision to source product from the States.

The problem is your actions to defend the author of the original subject matter as she degrades the American system and Earls restaurants choice. Actions speak louder than words.
Click to expand...

Where Earls gets their meat is no issue with me.
The reasoning behind Earls move to source meat from Creekstone Farms is an issue.
A cow is just as "humanely" dead when it is stunned and bled out in a Canadian slaughter house as one that is processed at Creekstone.
The same protocols are in place on both sides of the border.
As for Creekstones claim of having a halal slaughter, I don't believe they are the only ones bleeding out a beef while the heart is still pumping, they're just topping it off with a Muslim prayer.
What ever floats your boat..... I don't think a Muslim ritual is nessasary over my steak.
 
When I was in college in the 80s, I saw some white tent wearing variation, but I don't know which ones, buy a goat and hang it from a tree at the edge of the sale barn property, and slaughter it. They didn't offend me, but it seemed like I would have gone to jail for doing the same thing. This was in Lawrence ks, home of the university of Kansas, most liberal enclave in Kansas.

I didn't know creeks tone was Hilal - that plant has had problems of every kind since they remodeled to be "the most modern plant in America" (20+ years ago)
 
Brad S said:
When I was in college in the 80s, I saw some white tent wearing variation, but I don't know which ones, buy a goat and hang it from a tree at the edge of the sale barn property, and slaughter it. They didn't offend me, but it seemed like I would have gone to jail for doing the same thing. This was in Lawrence ks, home of the university of Kansas, most liberal enclave in Kansas.

I didn't know creeks tone was Hilal - that plant has had problems of every kind since they remodeled to be "the most modern plant in America" (20+ years ago)
Click to expand...

It's curious the protesting class has a problem with kosher kill, but not halal. For all I can tell, the only difference is the shape of the hat.

If I were sourcing the best possible fed beef for the highest end restaurants, I'd want at least 30% barley in the ration.
 
I was about to mention Kosher.. We looked into it 20 years ago, and in fact it's pretty much just added ritual, and for as much as we cared, meant nothing about how the animal was raised, only the slaughter mattered.
 
It would be interesting to hear the 'official', as in government inspector version of each, compared with conventional slaughter. I've read long ago how Kosher is done, and my spouse saw it done maybe ten years ago at a processing plant in MN. He didn't think it much different than the usual procedure, with exception of prayers and the fact it was done by cutting the throat by hand without stunning the animal, as I recall being told. It probably would look gruesome and brutal to someone who didn't understand that, properly done, it probably is very fast and no more painful to the animal than the conventional procedure.

I've also been told that the Halal is far more violent and frightening to the animal, but don't know if that is factual, either. It would also be good to know if it is factual that a 'tax' collected on all Halal food goes directly to Islamic leadership and that at least some goes to ISIS or ISIL or their Islamic terrorist divisions by whatever name they may be called. If true, it surely should not be allowed to continue in this country, or any other that values freedom and hates terrorism.

mrj
 

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