SH's big chance

[Econ101]

What proof do you have that ibp manipulated markets with captive supply cattle?

Everything else is irrelevant.

WHAT IS YOUR PROOF KINDERGARTEN?



~SH~

I don't because I was not in the court room or on either side. The jury believed one side however, and unless the judge and appellate courts have more than they have shown so far, they have no reason for overturning the verdict.

What is the circumference of a circle with radius=2?

 

[EJ]

when: Sept 21 7:30pm

Where: City auditorium

 

[agman]

Kindergarten: "Do I need to continue to post the prima fascia evidence requirements in the Robinson-Patman Act?"

Let's start with the evidence that proved that ibp manipulated markets.

Is that too much to ask?


~SH~

Good idea, SH. That is exactly what I have been asking to be released by the packers. Maybe you could convince Agman to ask the packers.

While we are on this subject of evidence, what proof do you give that the grid and formula cattle were priced higher because they gave value to the business? Was anyone outside of packers allowed into slaughter floor to verify that this was the case? How do cattlemen know that they are being paid based on yield/grade (which translates into value in price per lb.) if they do not have access to the slaughter floors?

Would it not be intuitive that allowing anyone on the slaughter floor to see how their cattle dressed out be a good idea? This way they could continue to produce what the market wanted instead of inferior cattle.

You are so ignorant of the market it is truly laughable. Kill sheets are provided to G&Y sales, formula and grid sales. Data is per USDA inspection. That is precisely why progressive producers were able to improve the quality and yield of their cattle. In sum, they were able to produce what the market was demanding and they were paid a premium for that production. No longer did they have to subsidize the production of inferior cattle and product which the consumer was clearly rejecting. You are aware that beef demand declined for a period of nineteen year?

 

[Econ101]

Let's start with the evidence that proved that ibp manipulated markets.

Is that too much to ask?


~SH~

Good idea, SH. That is exactly what I have been asking to be released by the packers. Maybe you could convince Agman to ask the packers.

While we are on this subject of evidence, what proof do you give that the grid and formula cattle were priced higher because they gave value to the business? Was anyone outside of packers allowed into slaughter floor to verify that this was the case? How do cattlemen know that they are being paid based on yield/grade (which translates into value in price per lb.) if they do not have access to the slaughter floors?

Would it not be intuitive that allowing anyone on the slaughter floor to see how their cattle dressed out be a good idea? This way they could continue to produce what the market wanted instead of inferior cattle.

You are so ignorant of the market it is truly laughable. Kill sheets are provided to G&Y sales, formula and grid sales. Data is per USDA inspection. That is precisely why progressive producers were able to improve the quality and yield of their cattle. In sum, they were able to produce what the market was demanding and they were paid a premium for that production. No longer did they have to subsidize the production of inferior cattle and product which the consumer was clearly rejecting. You are aware that beef demand declined for a period of nineteen year?

Agman, I know the reported sidebar discussions. The USDA is losing its credibility on a lot of fronts nowdays. They are NOT the depository of truth.

My grandfather knew over 25 years ago that his neighbor's charlais bull brought more value to his angus and whiteface cattle. I spent many a day chasing that bull across the fence. My grandfather was white and his neighbor was black. Neither one of them were concerned about what side of the fence the bull was on, they were just worried about us grandkids getting hurt chasing the bull. Both of these neighbors claimed the other was the best neighbor a person could have. It is a little funny, looking back on it, that my grandfather had the black cows and his black neighbor had the white cows.

Don't try to make up some argument of the consumers wanting a different yield/grade mix and that the cash market can not sell to that market so therefore should be discounted. That is a bunch of rubbish. You need to send the buyers back into the slaughter houses if that is the case.

Ask Jason about this one. He sells to cattlemen and when they take their cattle to market they find out the reality every day. Nothing new here. The question has never been whether the cash market was lower for real reasons, the question was, "Was the cash market discriminated against for the same product?"

19 years? What is your point?

 

[Anonymous]

Kindergarten: "Don't try to make up some argument of the consumers wanting a different yield/grade mix and that the cash market can not sell to that market so therefore should be discounted. That is a bunch of rubbish. You need to send the buyers back into the slaughter houses if that is the case."

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN???

Did you just make that up to sound less ignorant?

That doesn't even make sense.

If that makes sense to you, you got bigger issues than we are dealing with here pal. A call to Dr. Phil might be in order.

Consumers wanting a different yield/grade mix?????


The Grade and Yield premiums on grid pricing are based on what the market is demanding. This creates the financial incentive for producers to raise the right kind of cattle for the market.

How is that confusing you?

The cash market does not reward grade and yield premiums because those factors are not discovered until the hide comes off.

If you think cash cattle buyers can tell a high select from a low choice or the size of a ribeye with their eyeball you are a bigger idiot than you were before.




~SH~

 

[Econ101]

Kindergarten: "Don't try to make up some argument of the consumers wanting a different yield/grade mix and that the cash market can not sell to that market so therefore should be discounted. That is a bunch of rubbish. You need to send the buyers back into the slaughter houses if that is the case."

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN???

Did you just make that up to sound less ignorant?

That doesn't even make sense.

If that makes sense to you, you got bigger issues than we are dealing with here pal. A call to Dr. Phil might be in order.

Consumers wanting a different yield/grade mix?????


The Grade and Yield premiums on grid pricing are based on what the market is demanding. This creates the financial incentive for producers to raise the right kind of cattle for the market.

How is that confusing you?

The cash market does not reward grade and yield premiums because those factors are not discovered until the hide comes off.

If you think cash cattle buyers can tell a high select from a low choice or the size of a ribeye with their eyeball you are a bigger idiot than you were before.




~SH~

Any buyer worth his salt (maybe you are not one of them) can look at a pen of cattle and know pretty darn close what the yield/grade premiums would be. Like I said, if you don't know that, go back into the slaughter house and watch the cattle coming in and the cattle after their hides have been taken off. Go get some on the job training if you don't know your business, SH, just stop using your ignorance as an excuse to discriminate against the cash market.

 

[Anonymous]

Kindergarten: "Any buyer worth his salt (maybe you are not one of them) can look at a pen of cattle and know pretty darn close what the yield/grade premiums would be."

They have an idea based on genetics and finish if they will grade but yield grade is a different story. Yield grade is not simply based on back fat. Yield grade is based on backfat and ribeye. You probably didn't know that either did you?

I have seen a ton of cattle buyers fall flat on their face trying to predict Yield grade.

If buyers could accurately depict grade and yield, there would be no reason for grid pricing would there? Once again, the obvious is too obvious.

You cannot accurately predict ribeye with the naked eye which is precisely why bull sellers use ultrasound.

Again, you expose your ignorance.

I'll bet you have never even sold a pen of cattle on grade and Yield have you?

You pretend to know so much but you didn't even know how a formula base price was derived.

What a shame that I have to educate you as I expose the flaws in your arguments.


~SH~

 

[Econ101]

Kindergarten: "Any buyer worth his salt (maybe you are not one of them) can look at a pen of cattle and know pretty darn close what the yield/grade premiums would be."

They have an idea based on genetics and finish if they will grade but yield grade is a different story. Yield grade is not simply based on back fat. Yield grade is based on backfat and ribeye. You probably didn't know that either did you?

I have seen a ton of cattle buyers fall flat on their face trying to predict Yield grade.

If buyers could accurately depict grade and yield, there would be no reason for grid pricing would there? Once again, the obvious is too obvious.

You cannot accurately predict ribeye with the naked eye which is precisely why bull sellers use ultrasound.

Again, you expose your ignorance.

I'll bet you have never even sold a pen of cattle on grade and Yield have you?

You pretend to know so much but you didn't even know how a formula base price was derived.

What a shame that I have to educate you as I expose the flaws in your arguments.


~SH~

Of course I do. That is the cut I like to buy the most for home consumption.

It seems that Tyson had the same problem I have. They did not divulge the information requested in discovery or in testimony about the captive supply pricing. I have not ever said that there is not a place for grid pricing. It can make the differences a cattle seller and buyer have in their mind about the particular cattle approach(this is also a mathematical term) each other.

As far as yield grade and backfat, I think I posted earlier data on different breeds. I do know there are differences of individual genetics that come into play also and I mentioned that. I have some nice quarter horses. In my younger day I helped raise world champion horses. In my younger day I have also shown cattle. This by all means does not make me an expert, but I know a lot of the little tricks to making an animal, whether cattle or horses, look the best in regards to yield/grade and thier own individual potential. I could probably teach you a few things.

If Tyson cattle buyers wanted to have a certain type of cattle, and were willing to pay a premium for it, they would, whether it was in the cash or captive supply market.

Have you figured out my circumference question?

What is the circumference of a circle with the radius=2?

 

[Anonymous]

Kindergarten: "If Tyson cattle buyers wanted to have a certain type of cattle, and were willing to pay a premium for it, they would, whether it was in the cash or captive supply market."

Hahaha!

I can't believe it!

IF THEY DID THAT, PACKER BLAMERS LIKE YOU WOULD ACCUSE THEM OF MARKET MANIPULATION!! That is precisely why the cash market is so cautious about rewarding quality.

Blamers like you will see a difference in price and start screaming discrimination and market manipulation.

That is precisely why the packers have taken the monkey off their back in the cash market and placed it on the back of the USDA grader to determine the specifications of a carcass for grid pricing in the formula market.

That allowed packers to pay more money for carcass characteristics rather than listening to packer blamers like you cry discrimination in the cash market.


~SH~

 

[Econ101]

Kindergarten: "If Tyson cattle buyers wanted to have a certain type of cattle, and were willing to pay a premium for it, they would, whether it was in the cash or captive supply market."

Hahaha!

I can't believe it!

IF THEY DID THAT, PACKER BLAMERS LIKE YOU WOULD ACCUSE THEM OF MARKET MANIPULATION!! That is precisely why the cash market is so cautious about rewarding quality.

Blamers like you will see a difference in price and start screaming discrimination and market manipulation.

That is precisely why the packers have taken the monkey off their back in the cash market and placed it on the back of the USDA grader to determine the specifications of a carcass for grid pricing in the formula market.

That allowed packers to pay more money for carcass characteristics rather than listening to packer blamers like you cry discrimination in the cash market.


~SH~

That was not the question in the Pickett case. I am sure that there were a lot of sellers who went to formula or grid just to not have to haggle over a base price with you or someone like you.

What is the circumference of a circle with radius=2?

 

[Murgen]

Okay, enough with the Circ. question, how many decimals, would you like the answer to. The answer is 12.566371, but you did not include units, so we still don't know the whole answer.

That circle may be huge or very small, but one thing is for sure, it is round. Just like this argument, it goes around in circles!

 

[Econ101]

Okay, enough with the Circ. question, how many decimals, would you like the answer to. The answer is 12.566371, but you did not include units, so we still don't know the whole answer.

That circle may be huge or very small, but one thing is for sure, it is round. Just like this argument, it goes around in circles!

I totally agree. Now, to get the answer right you have to tell us how you calculate pi.

 

[Murgen]

Do you want the long or short answer?

To put it simply, we cut up a circle into pie shape pieces, lay them side by side, to create a rectangle. The smaller the slices the more accuracy we get. I don't think you want to get into Archimedes etc. or Vieta, do you?

It's not really in the realm of cattle talk.

I realize your point, do others?

 

[Econ101]

Do you want the long or short answer?

To put it simply, we cut up a circle into pie shape pieces, lay them side by side, to create a rectangle. The smaller the slices the more accuracy we get. I don't think you want to get into Archimedes etc. or Vieta, do you?

It's not really in the realm of cattle talk.

I realize your point, do others?

No, I don't want to get into the proof. It is interesting that the proof does contain sumation and approaches. Both concepts probably used in the underlying econometric analysis on Pickett data.

I just wanted to show that SH and Agman don't necessarily know what they are talking about when bringing up the Daubert issues.

It is close to the time for me to leave this forum but being on here did remind me of growing up with 4 brothers and a lot about my earlier days working with cattle, horses and SH--.

 

[Murgen]

It is close to the time for me to leave this forum but being on here did remind me of growing up with 4 brothers and a lot about my earlier days working with cattle, horses and SH--.

There's no time limit, on this forum. Stay, and help us expose the lies and deception within the beef industry!

Be here, when we need help in marketing and economics. How do we get to the point where we are selling direct to consumer demands and not on average? A question that will be answered in the years to come.

What about production efficiencies, you can help out there too.

You weren't being paid for a speciefied amount of time/period were you?

So, you might as well stay, I feel you were here to help out the cattle producers of North America, with your knowledge and info. So, so stay and finish your purpose!

 

[Anonymous]

Kindergarten: "It is close to the time for me to leave this forum but being on here did remind me of growing up with 4 brothers and a lot about my earlier days working with cattle, horses and SH--."

Imagine that!

I'm surprised you lasted as long as you did. Usually those with nothing to support their position don't last past a couple posts. Sandman would be the exception to that rule.

One or two pointed questions that they cannot answer usually finds them scrambling for more empty ammunition.

Bullsh*t usually doesn't last very long at this site, hence the popularity of this site.

This is the one place cattlemen who want to know the truth can come and see who can back their positions and who can't.

Like I said before, "OPINIONS" and "THEORIES" will never earn you a fair conviction.

If you ever do find the proof of market manipulation, as opposed to your creation of an illusion of market manipulation, by all means please present it and see if it will hold up to scrutiny any better than the rest of your worthles arguments did.



~SH~

 

[Econ101]

Kindergarten: "It is close to the time for me to leave this forum but being on here did remind me of growing up with 4 brothers and a lot about my earlier days working with cattle, horses and SH--."

Imagine that!

I'm surprised you lasted as long as you did. Usually those with nothing to support their position don't last past a couple posts. Sandman would be the exception to that rule.

One or two pointed questions that they cannot answer usually finds them scrambling for more empty ammunition.

Bullsh*t usually doesn't last very long at this site, hence the popularity of this site.

This is the one place cattlemen who want to know the truth can come and see who can back their positions and who can't.

Like I said before, "OPINIONS" and "THEORIES" will never earn you a fair conviction.

If you ever do find the proof of market manipulation, as opposed to your creation of an illusion of market manipulation, by all means please present it and see if it will hold up to scrutiny any better than the rest of your worthles arguments did.



~SH~

My leaving this forum has never been based on losing an argument to you, SH or Agman. I have a family and better things to do than give you a free education as much as I have enjoyed it. Time is a valuable commodity and my loving wife wants more of mine and she definitely comes before someone like you.

You have proven that you do not have the analytical and mathematical skills needed to understand a proof other than what you already believe.

To you the world is flat. It probably always will be.

 

[Anonymous]

Kindergarten: "I have a family and better things to do than give you a free education as much as I have enjoyed it."

Hahaha!

You call presenting unsupported "OPINIONS" and "THEORIES" giving me a free education???

Hahahaha!

I think we both know who supported their position and who only wished they could.



~SH~

 

[Econ101]

Kindergarten: "I have a family and better things to do than give you a free education as much as I have enjoyed it."

Hahaha!

You call presenting unsupported "OPINIONS" and "THEORIES" giving me a free education???

Hahahaha!

I think we both know who supported their position and who only wished they could.



~SH~

You are right on the education. Zero times anything is still zero. I had hoped there was at least something to multiply by in your learning quotient. Pickett supported their position with enough evidence and testimony to get 12 unrelated people to give a verdict. You have only convinced yourself and a few bought off judges. It shows how bad money and power corrupts---ABSOLUTELY.

 

[Anonymous]

Kindergarten: "It shows how bad money and power corrupts---ABSOLUTELY."

The only corruption is the whiny packer blamers that believe that the only way others can succeed is at their expense.

Judge Strom and the 11th circuit got it right.

The plaintiffs never had a case and neither did you.


~SH~