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Size Matters

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PPRM

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thot that would get your attention...

Topic of Cow size has had me thinking.


My dad talks about they used to breed hiefers as 2 year olds to calve at 3. I don't think that is an option anymore. However, I do think it is interesting...I started feeding my hiefers to make sure they were mature sized for the first calf.....But this extra feed certainly could ffect the mature size when they get older. I could see it making what was going to e a 1200 pound cow into 1300 pounds instead.....


So my question, what way do you develop your Replacement Hiefers? What is your target Breeding wt. and first calf wt. and mature wt.?

I also feel we need to feed thes girls a little wiiththe first calf on them to assure they breed back, this affects the mature wieght to,

PPRM
 
We used to feed our heifers prettyy well-it was causing foot problems down the road-we wean at 4-5 months so go into winter with some small calves-we'll feed a little bit of grain from Jan.1-Mar.1-1% of body weight-unless we have very good hay. A long 40 belowq stretch and those small calves wither up on you. Other than that it's straight hay-our heifers are pretty small when they calve but they squirt them out on their own. You can knock a couple hundred pounds and a frame score off your mature size by not being quite so kind to your replacements-you'll lose some but the ones that stay-they stay a long time.
 
We feed our heifers so that the poorer doers are apperent. If they all look good then we are feeding them to much. I like them to weigh 800-900 when we breed and 1000-1100 at calving and 1100-1250 mature.
 
We feed our heifers good hay and this year, only mineral with the hay.
Last year we fed some Forage Pro with the hay, but they didn't eat much. Forage Pro is a soybean based product complete with mineral package.
Unique that the cattle won't overeat it if they are getting enough protein.
Our heifers weigh that 800 lbs in Mid-May. 100% of them bred up last year.


I do think that young cattle need the best hay, because they don't have the rumen to digest poor quality hay like they need to. Cows can do that, but it's best if heifers don't have to their first or second winters. JMO.
 
Andy said:
We feed our heifers so that the poorer doers are apperent. If they all look good then we are feeding them to much. I like them to weigh 800-900 when we breed and 1000-1100 at calving and 1100-1250 mature.
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That's a great idea Andy. Never thought about it like that!
 
I'm about the same as NR. They'll get good quality 1st cut hay, mineral, and a max of just a little better than 1% body weight of whole oats or ground barley. Come warmer weather in March/April, they get taken off the grain and they'll never see another hint of it again, unless they have calving troubles the following year. I want to see my heifers sitting at 800 - 900 lbs or close to it when I breed them June 1. If they haven't made it there on the feed I've given em, they get culled out.

Rod
 
In the beef production classes I've taken at SDSU we were told hefiers should be 65% of their mature body weight at breeding and 85% mature body weight when they have thier first calf.
 
sdsu rancher said:
In the beef production classes I've taken at SDSU we were told hefiers should be 65% of their mature body weight at breeding and 85% mature body weight when they have thier first calf.
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That is older data. Trey Patterson has done work were they breed at 53% of mature weight and they still breed good. I think that is stressing the heifers too much. And stuntting there growth.
 
Andy said:
sdsu rancher said:
In the beef production classes I've taken at SDSU we were told hefiers should be 65% of their mature body weight at breeding and 85% mature body weight when they have thier first calf.
Click to expand...
That is older data. Trey Patterson has done work were they breed at 53% of mature weight and they still breed good. I think that is stressing the heifers too much. And stuntting there growth.
Click to expand...

Aw hell I've done my own POOR mans research and bred them small and young it didnt effect thier mature size enough to worry about.Those little runt heifers have grown up to be some of my very best cows.Alot of the best looking yearling heifers never turned out worth a damn.I do know that the only cattle I have with long toes and bad feet are boughten cattle pushed to hard to look slick and fat for a production sale :mad:
 
I'm glad I read this as I feel much better about breeding the Angus hiefers I bought now. I intend to breed them first of June and they are almost 800# now. They just look so small against the Charolis - - - My first calf hiefers were averageing 1560# last year.

I got my first crome calf today. One of my best Charolis cows ( I AIed her for a registered Charolis calf and turned her with the rest of the herd with an Angus for clean-up) I hope this calf keeps his color as he is bright crome with the shinyest black nose you have ever seen!!!
 
I used to cull heifers by weight before exposure-then I just ran a bull with the works-alot of ugly heifers got bred and alot of pretties didn't. I'm still stuck with those uglies 10 years later-I can't imagine a 1560 lb bred heifer -my bulls would be scared of her lol.
 
Northern Rancher said:
I used to cull heifers by weight before exposure-then I just ran a bull with the works-alot of ugly heifers got bred and alot of pretties didn't. I'm still stuck with those uglies 10 years later-I can't imagine a 1560 lb bred heifer -my bulls would be scared of her lol.
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I here you there The dumpiest heifer I had last year has a 2 month old calf at side right now the biggest fanciest heifer has yet to calve...
 
I ended up with 45 registered open Hfrs out of the Short Grass sake back in '95. I won;t tell you why cause that's another story but 44 of them were just the nicest most even bunch of hfrs you could find and one poor rough looking hfr. I thought maybe she had been sick. Since they were bought one at a time I wondered why my dad even bought her. Well long story shortened she was the first to calve the next spring. Went to grass and started doing and got bred while the fatter ones thought their throats had been cut. I still have the cow in the herd and many daughters. I have even raised bulls off of her.
 
LOL,


I remember even posting maybe a year ago when I thot I would use Pelvic Measurement to make the final cut on some hiefers I couldn't decide on. Basically the vet told me I could breed all of those to a Charlais Bull the first go around, LOL....The smallest one of the bunch had the biggest pelvic measurement. So I kept them all even though it has made things a little tight money-wise....The jury is still out as they all calved in December, we'll see about breed back...

But the thing is that after the first calf I worry about breed back as they are feeding a calf and growing themselves. Maybe the thing to do is creep these calves so the demands aren't so hard on the mothers.

I kinda fed those girls up and liked the looks of them. But they got nowhere near what you are talking about with some of the registered feeding programs. I walked outa a sale this spring when I saw the first hiefer go through, she was way too fat. Thios guy raises great bulls, so I was disappointed. They have calved and are a little down on condition, so they are maybe 1050 pounds now. But the calves are doing great.

And that is what got me thinking on this. It seems like I could very well create a giant cow with the feed program the first two years. I like Andy's idea. Stress them a little, great minerals but not too pampered, and see which ones will likely be there ten more years. I also agree with FH on the quality of hay. I am able to keep broken mouth cows as I have irrigated soft grass pastures. But I feel I should feed these and the hiefers about the same. Sure it may be slightly more in feed cost, but a lot cheaper than growing out a replacement hiefer,

Thanks for the feedback,


PPRM
 
PPRM: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. For me personally I think a little stress on them when they are lactaing as two year olds won't kill them as long as they have decent grass and good mineral. Yes you might leave a couple open but it will leave you with the easier keeping right kind to select your next round of replacements.


What I fail to understand is the need to push for higher milking cows. If 20 pounds of milk is not enough to raise a good calf you have the wrong kind of cow to start with and 40 pounds won;t make her any better.
 
WB said:
What I fail to understand is the need to push for higher milking cows. If 20 pounds of milk is not enough to raise a good calf you have the wrong kind of cow to start with and 40 pounds won;t make her any better.
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My thoughts exactly, WB. Every trait is a trade off with another trait. Continuously increasing the milk seems to me like a good way to end up with hard keeping cows that milk themselves to death and then won't breed back. We're not trying to raise dairy cows.

When buying bulls I pretty much ignore milk epds. Don't like to see a - sign there, but no need for a large + number either. I'm more concerned with proper udder conformation that holds up over the life of the cow. Don't like to see large teats that make it difficult for a calf to get his first breakfast!
 
Faster horses said:
I absolutely hate the day we pick replacement heifers, because it is mostly a crap shoot. They tell you to wait as long as possible before
you select the ones to keep.
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Congrats FH! what you just said is a testimony to the quality of your cattle! (and your mineral program of course! :wink: )

All good uniform quality heifers like "peas in a pod" do make it tougher to make the decision. All other things being equal, I'd say look at the dams of those heifers and choose the daughters based on longevity, dispostion, and good udders of the mama cows!
 
Our cows keep sneaking up a little bigger all the time, even though I've tried to not let this happen. I don't like to buy a breeder's "best bulls" because they usually turn out to also be the biggest.

Thursday, I took eight cull cows to the sale. They were old, bad bags, etc., that we had robbed calves from to graft onto young cows that had lost calves for one reason or another. The eight cows averaged 1286#, brought $52.67 cwt, and dollared out $677.50. The two biggest cows sold together and averaged 1420#. They brought $54.00 cwt, and dollared out $766.80. The two smallest cows sold together, and averaged 1118#. They brought $52.75 cwt, and dollared out at $589.48. The bigger cows weighed 302# more than their smaller counterparts, so they sure probably ate more feed. Their salvage value was $177.32 more, so that offset part of the extra feed that they ate. Probably they've weaned a bigger calf year after year, though this is just guessing since we don't keep individual calf weights. Size makes a difference. Does it really matter? I honestly don't know.
 
All the popular research and coffee row ranchers say my heifers are calving at about the reccommended breeding weight most people use-funny thing is they're checking their heifers every couple of hours to save calves and our little runts calve on their own out on grass. Soapweed I guess the best time to cull a big cow is when she is young before she eats up all that extra salvage value lol. In strong grass country like you have it would be hard to keep size down for sure.
 

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