Size Matters

[Faster horses]

JohnSD, I appreciate your comment and we got rid of any bad uddered cow long ago. However, isn't it true that the udder comes from the bull? I watch in the sires bloodlines for good udders.

And I don't like a milk epd of over 15. We already have superior milking cows, based on the gain of the calf while on his mother. They gain over 3 lbs.day during the summer with no creep. Never did select for milk and certainly don't want any higher milk than we've got.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Try and find an A.I. catalogue with a bull under 25 for milk-it's crazy-I commend breeders that aren't lemmings and will actually breed practical cattle and not hop on the single trait e.p.d roller coaster. The problem with carcass e.p.d's is that unless you sell finished cattle-you have no idea where your herd is carcass wise. Alot of the uber marbling bulls leave daughters that are not very practical-picking up a few bucks on the grid isn't worth it if it leaves you with a bunch of welfare cows to try and get in calf.

 

[Mike]

FH:isn't it true that the udder comes from the bull?

There is significant new evidence from DNA research that the dam of cattle contribute much more than 50% of the genetics to her offspring through the egg fertilization process. Some are saying it is as high as 70%-80%.

From personal observations I believe this to be true.

 

[Shelly]

I've been thinking about this thread for awhile now, comparing our cattle to what you're all saying and going back through my books to check out the performance of our cows. We tend to breed our 1st calf heifers at about 950-1050 lbs. When they calve they're anywhere from 1100 lbs. to 1250 lbs. I noticed the smaller, dumpier heifers usually calved first with no problems, and the bigger, fancier ones were the last to calve and usually with needed help. The smaller ones bred back quicker, also. Most of our smaller cows wean off a calf that is 2/3rds or more of they're own bodyweight, while eating a whole lot less feed than our bigger cows. Our worst cow we have here is one we bought, she HAS to weigh at least 1800 lbs. but always weans off the smallest, skankiest calf you've ever seen. Looks like a pailfed holstein! She is putting all the feed she eats into herself to maintain her weight. I gave this cow 3 chances to impress me with her calf, this fall she's going. She will go into the slaughter market, I will not sell her as a bred cow (even though she's a nice looking young cow) because I'd feel guilty selling her to someone else so she can raise skanky calves at their place.

 

[John SD]

FH:isn't it true that the udder comes from the bull?

There is significant new evidence from DNA research that the dam of cattle contribute much more than 50% of the genetics to her offspring through the egg fertilization process. Some are saying it is as high as 70%-80%.

From personal observations I believe this to be true.

I don't know about the research stats but I agree with the personal observation theory. Cows with big teats often have daughters with big teats.

FWIW, I'm tempted to keep my first early calf for a bull to use on my black cows. He looks 100% hereford out of a good black baldy cow with an excellent udder/black teats.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

FH:isn't it true that the udder comes from the bull?

There is significant new evidence from DNA research that the dam of cattle contribute much more than 50% of the genetics to her offspring through the egg fertilization process. Some are saying it is as high as 70%-80%.

From personal observations I believe this to be true.

I don't know about the research stats but I agree with the personal observation theory. Cows with big teats often have daughters with big teats.

FWIW, I'm tempted to keep my first early calf for a bull to use on my black cows. He looks 100% hereford out of a good black baldy cow with an excellent udder/black teats.

I was inclined to agree with Mike, until the teat question came along. My old herd sire was a MasterCharge grandson, and he cleaned up every teat on the place. When I asked Saskvalley about it, they told me that the MasterCharge bull did the same thing on their ranch. I've retained heifers out of cows with big old teats, and they've got the nicest teats for suckling calves that I've ever seen. I actually haven't seen a hiefer around here with big teats in the years I've been using him.

I've also got a Simm/Angus cross cow out there with the biggest ears you ever did see. These things are like radar dishes. And every one of her calves has the same ears, and any heifers I've kept back have passed those ears onto their offspring. I haven't retained any hiefers out of the 3rd generation to see what happens in Gen 4.

Got another old cow around here that every year has a 70-75lb calf, no matter what the herd average is that year. This year, I'm averaging 90lbs, she gave me a 70 lb calf. Also have another old cow that drops me a 95 - 98 lb calf every single year. Yet the bulls can definitely influence birthweights up or down as my averages go up or down depending on the bull.

My rambling point? I don't think genetic researchers have quite got it all figured out just yet, or if they have, they certainly haven't passed the knowledge along. There are obviously some sex factors, as well as some dominance factors based on particular animals. And its just enough of an influence that generalizations are difficult to come to.

Rod

 

[Jason]

Genetics are 50-50, no question about it.

What a person sees from a bull is more calves influenced by his 50% of the genetic equation.

Think about it...you buy a bull or use one A.I. 20 30 50 calves a year with his genetics.

The cow....1 calf maybe a set of twins. She makes it to 18 years having 16 calves. You will never see 20 calves from her without embryo transfer, even then it is rare.

If you have some cows with bad udders and want to retain heifers you look for a bull with good uddered females in his tabulation, or look at his daughters if he is a proven A.I. sire. Same with milk production or other traits you want to improve or change.

Cattle breed to averages, everything in nature will find an average if left to itself. What we are doing by selection pressures, is changing the average nature wants or has achieved. We find pushing one thing one way and something else the other way we can make a more desireable product.

However, we can only push things so far. How low can we push birth weights before sacrificing weaning weights? How far can we push milking ability before we lose fleshing? Regardless of what we strive for the cattle tend back to average. Birth weight of Angus calves is still low 80's, beef cows don't produce the milk dairy breeds do, Angus cows average 1350 pounds.

To maintain the gains we have made pushing the natural averages culling is necessary. Not 100% of the daughters of a bull with good udders will have good udders. Not 100% of the calves from an easy calving bull will be easy calving.

Environmental factors like weather and feed supplies will affect how certian cattle develop and respond to the genetics they posess. Soft footed cattle might have bad feet in a rocky area, but are just fine in sandy soils.

Bottom line is raise what works to provide as consistant and high quality beef that is possible in your conditions.

 

[PPRM]

Wow,

This has turned into quite a thread.....

On the udders, Most of the Cows I have go back to two of the first ones I bought. AAny other cow and thier get tended to not measure up....


Cow one appears to have some shorthorn and maybe Charlais or Limosouin. It is hard to say, she is yellow with feathered in white. Her calves tend to be Blue Roan when bred to Black Bulls.....SHe is about 11 years old and has as good of udder confirmation as I have ever seen. Nice tight but full bag, small teats. All her hiefer and grand hiefer calves are the same.


Cow 2 has just a little Saler and Hereford and then Angus and Gelbvieh. She throws incredible steer calvves as do her Heifers and Grand Hiefers. They are the ones that averaged over 4.25 lbs per day at the Steer Futurity. Thrre years ago, I thought i was going to have to sell her. She was 10 and developed some bottle like Teats. Well, she raised a great calf and the last two with no problems. Her Hiefers and Grand Hiefers udders are nothing like hers.

One Bull that may have a major influence in my herd was a Sim-Angus Bull I bought from Terry Anderson in Pilot Rock Oregon. At the time I was using Weaning Wt., Birth Wt. and gain as my primary "numbers" and then appearance. I wish I knew the pedigree, but at the time I didn't care. I just wanted what I wanted, pedigree be dambed, LOL.

Terry had like 200 bulls and this bull was in the top 5% for all these traits. He looked good, but what sold me was he was outta a cow that was Terry's oldest, maybe 13? And this is a cowherd that makes a living. That screamed to me that this was a Bull that could put longevity and production in the cows he made. Terry has no night calving person as his cows are expected to calve.

Well, those hiefers I couldn't decide on with the huge Pelvises, they are from this bull. Thier calves are doing well, I only kept few of the hiefers the year before as I kinda wanted to see before jumping whole hog.

So is it the cow or bull? I guess it can be either, LOL,

PPRM

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well from human observation I'd tend to go with the mother's influence and we always try and use a bull from a great uddered cow. Helping calves to suck is so 70's haven't done it for many years and not about to start again lol.

 

[Soapweed]

Well from human observation I'd tend to go with the mother's influence and we always try and use a bull from a great uddered cow. Helping calves to suck is so 70's haven't done it for many years and not about to start again lol.

Aw, I can picture that 70's thing in my mind. Someone in a leisure suit, with no tie, helping a calf to suck a balloon-teated momma. :wink:

 

[John SD]

Well from human observation I'd tend to go with the mother's influence and we always try and use a bull from a great uddered cow. Helping calves to suck is so 70's haven't done it for many years and not about to start again lol.

Aw, I can picture that 70's thing in my mind. Someone in a leisure suit, with no tie, helping a calf to suck a balloon-teated momma. :wink:

Soap, don't forget the guy is wearing platform shoes and listening to Bee Gees disco muzak on the radio out in the calving barn! The radio is probably one of those early AM/FM clock combos with the flip-over numbers on the clock. And if that ol' cow gets on the fight the polyester will fly! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I would have to drink quite abit to even imagine NR, Soapweed and John SD in their disco get ups. :drink: :cowboy: :arrow: :idea: :arrow: :help:

 

[Denny]

Well from human observation I'd tend to go with the mother's influence and we always try and use a bull from a great uddered cow. Helping calves to suck is so 70's haven't done it for many years and not about to start again lol.

Aw, I can picture that 70's thing in my mind. Someone in a leisure suit, with no tie, helping a calf to suck a balloon-teated momma. :wink:

Soap, don't forget the guy is wearing platform shoes and listening to Bee Gees disco muzak on the radio out in the calving barn! The radio is probably one of those early AM/FM clock combos with the flip-over numbers on the clock. And if that ol' cow gets on the fight the polyester will fly! :lol: :lol: :lol:

And the BEE GEE'S song Staying Alive will be playing :lol2: :nod:

 

[Northern Rancher]

The worst disco was still better than the best rap lol.Can you imagine listening to Snoop Dog in a calving barn lol. The music of choice while cruising looking at cows is Corb Lund in our neck of the woods-he's kind of like Ian Tyson with a little more bounce lol. Ok so I'm not a music reviewer lol.

 

[Silver]

"the chev got stuck then the ford got stuck then the dodge got stuck in the ruts that the tractor made......" or sum such :shock: Just thinkin about it makes me wanna take down the ole 5 string and start grabbin' strings!
Definetly better than disco :wink:

How did this thread get here??!!?!? :shock: :lol: