Size Reduction

[Jinglebob]

Doc

These cattle look very much like the terentaise I used to have.

 

[Ben H]

I took a look at a few sites, looks like a good breed. The problem with any of these small breeds is the limited pool of genetics to choose from. But since I'm trying to find cows that aren't the industry standards my pool is already smaller within the large breeds.
The horns are going to make me hesitate, I like the fact that I don't even know where my iron is since I don't need it for my Herefords (polled).

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Using today's bulls, what is that increased Bull size going to do to your cow herd size??

Nothing if you use a terminal system. :roll:

Mike- You are absolutely correct - EXCEPT - one of these years you are going to either BUY new replacement brood cows - or - KEEP replacements from your own herd, and then we have leap-frogged or pole vaulted into a genetically increased frame size problem, and the cycle starts all over again with still-larger cow size base genetics.

In order to down-size our cow herd size, it must begin by selecting for LOWER WW and YW EPD's than we would desire at the moment. An example would be - in flying an airplane against a side-wind you must aim against the wind to enable the plane to stay on a straight course. Until we can STANDARDIZE our optimal EPD's, we must select in the opposite direction than that which would be ideal - similar to steering INTO the direction of a skid on ice! My Airline Captain son could probably explain this principle in a more understandable manner than I seem to be doing!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Mike]

Using today's bulls, what is that increased Bull size going to do to your cow herd size??

Nothing if you use a terminal system. :roll:

Mike- You are absolutely correct - EXCEPT - one of these years you are going to either BUY new replacement brood cows - or - KEEP replacements from your own herd, and then we have leap-frogged or pole vaulted into a genetically increased frame size problem, and the cycle starts all over again with still-larger cow size base genetics.

In order to down-size our cow herd size, it must begin by selecting for LOWER WW and YW EPD's than we would desire at the moment. An example would be - in flying an airplane against a side-wind you must aim against the wind to enable the plane to stay on a straight course. Until we can STANDARDIZE our optimal EPD's, we must select in the opposite direction than that which would be ideal - similar to steering INTO the direction of a skid on ice! My Airline Captain son could probably explain this principle in a more understandable manner than I seem to be doing!

DOC HARRIS

I must be having delusions. I have a bull who is a trait leader for WW and YW. In the top 1% for the Char breed. His daughters are the smallest cattle I own and the bulls off him usually turn out around 6.5 to 7 frames.

The bulls are the right size to sell for terminal bulls and my herd is getting smaller. :???:

 

[Red Robin]

I took a look at a few sites, looks like a good breed. The problem with any of these small breeds is the limited pool of genetics to choose from. But since I'm trying to find cows that aren't the industry standards my pool is already smaller within the large breeds.
The horns are going to make me hesitate, I like the fact that I don't even know where my iron is since I don't need it for my Herefords (polled).

Ben how does a small gene pool hurt you if the breed has included within it's genome the traits you desire? I would think that would be beneficial.

 

[Horseless]

Mike,
I am not going to disagree with what is happening in your herd, but I would generally think if you have a high YW that both heifer and bull offspring will weigh more, than those than have lower EPD's.
You seem to be up on the EPD's. Can you explain the reason for whats happening in your herd. What are your cows Frame Scores?

 

[Jason]

Selection continues and nature tends to average.

Heavier cattle that have their weight in a different package are what is happening in nearly all breeds.

The exotics have framed down and so have Angus from the 80's, but the average EPD is still climbing.

That says 2 things to me, the cattle are changing and EPD's have a margin of error.

I watched a prominent breeder in both Simmental and Angus do his performance testing while he was in the bull business. He raved about his high % weaning weights on his Simmental calves. All over 50% and some as high as 60% When he returned to Angus, or rather added Angus to his sale, his % was lower, usually 40%.

This breeder used creep feeding like there was no tomorrow. High energy rations that couldn't be empty for fear of getting the calves sick if they got hungry.

His Simmental cows never reached mature weights. They would be culled usually by 4 years and I never saw 1 older than 7, lots of cow weights at 1300-1450. His Angus cows all weighed 1500 plus, and all kept breeding back.

Making 1 figure the basis for a cowherd is unreasonable. Cow weights are what they are, and in my opinion are the worst gauge of a cow. Cows will cull themselves to an extent, producers need to manage their herds on multiple levels. Some 1500 pound cows are useless, some are the most productive things going. Same can be said for 1200 pound cows.

Understanding what happens to the calves after weaning is important, and knowing how different management will affect those cows is critical to making the best decisions.

 

[Mike]

Mike,
I am not going to disagree with what is happening in your herd, but I would generally think if you have a high YW that both heifer and bull offspring will weigh more, than those than have lower EPD's.
You seem to be up on the EPD's. Can you explain the reason for whats happening in your herd. What are your cows Frame Scores?

YW (Yearling weight) is often wrongly associated with frame score. Actually the name, YW, should be changed to "Post Weaning Gain", which is the amount of gain from the day of weaning out to about 140 days, a high growth curve period in some cattle, which is desirable when fed for slaughter.

Although I don't doubt there is a correlation between YW and Mature size..............

All cattle don't have to be huge monsters to gain weight during that time period. Sometimes they are moderately framed, heavy boned, thicker, and have some gut with moderate "Mature" heights.

 

[Horseless]

I am sure there is alot of thinking of higher YW means larger frame.
The angus MH epd is so often not even listed.
Any thoughts on length of animal. I am no expert by any means, but I find it so hard to see the length in some high capacity animals. To me it makes them look shorter in length. I almost wish there was a measurement for length. For those of you with a trained eye, I'm sure you'll disagree with needing more measurements.

 

[Mike]

I am sure there is alot of thinking of higher YW means larger frame.
The angus MH epd is so often not even listed.
Any thoughts on length of animal. I am no expert by any means, but I find it so hard to see the length in some high capacity animals. To me it makes them look shorter in length. I almost wish there was a measurement for length. For those of you with a trained eye, I'm sure you'll disagree with needing more measurements.

You're right. Sometimes the deeper, higher capacity animals look shorter in length and it can be deceptive.

The only length I worry about is if their neck is long enough for the mouth to reach the ground. :lol:

 

[Horseless]

Mike,

I had a Charolais breeder telling me, not to be so concerned about BW on some of his bulls, cause much of the weight is do to longer calves. Thus calving is not any harder. I did use one of his bulls that had a 95lb bw. Never had a problems but that number is too high for me.

 

[Mike]

Mike,

I had a Charolais breeder telling me, not to be so concerned about BW on some of his bulls, cause much of the weight is do to longer calves. Thus calving is not any harder. I did use one of his bulls that had a 95lb bw. Never had a problems but that number is too high for me.

95 lb calves work for a lot of people.

I had a guy come to me and wanted the highest BW EPD bulls I had for a set of older brahma type cows.
He won the trophy from the State Beef Improvement Assoc. for the highest 205 weaning weights from those bulls. I believe it was around 700 lbs.?

He told me he never pulled a calf...............................

 

[Ben H]

Ben how does a small gene pool hurt you if the breed has included within it's genome the traits you desire? I would think that would be beneficial.

Yes and no. In my opinion when you are working with a smaller gene pool then all of a sudden this bull comes out and dominates the breed, everyone wants to breed to it. A few years later he's in all the pedigrees. This can happen a few times and then it's a challenge to find an outcross sire. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but I think there is some truth to what I'm saying. Line breeding can work if you know what you're doing. I've personally never tested the waters.

 

[Red Robin]

Ben how does a small gene pool hurt you if the breed has included within it's genome the traits you desire? I would think that would be beneficial.

Yes and no. In my opinion when you are working with a smaller gene pool then all of a sudden this bull comes out and dominates the breed, everyone wants to breed to it. A few years later he's in all the pedigrees. This can happen a few times and then it's a challenge to find an outcross sire. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but I think there is some truth to what I'm saying. Line breeding can work if you know what you're doing. I've personally never tested the waters.

You are certainly right if the cattle are strait bred cattle. In a crossbreeding program , selecting a bull from a breed with a smaller gene pool would give me better predictability I would think. They would (or could) have less genetic possibilities.

 

[Ben H]

RR, I'll give you credit on that one, maybe I'll buy some semen to try this summer. I'm almost done reading Allan Nation's book Grass-fed to Finish. He says the best steak he's ever had was from a 9 year old French Aubrac cow. It was brought up again at the conference I went to with the thought that a properly finished cow is worth more then hamburg. The french prefer to eat older animals. One of the examples given was that an older animals is in the prime of their life, this was compared to a 36 year old woman being in the prime of her life.

 

[Denny]

Mike,

I had a Charolais breeder telling me, not to be so concerned about BW on some of his bulls, cause much of the weight is do to longer calves. Thus calving is not any harder. I did use one of his bulls that had a 95lb bw. Never had a problems but that number is too high for me.

I used Sitz Alliance 6595 for AI and had a 95 lb. calf also on a registered Angus cow.

 

[Denny]

RR, I'll give you credit on that one, maybe I'll buy some semen to try this summer. I'm almost done reading Allan Nation's book Grass-fed to Finish. He says the best steak he's ever had was from a 9 year old French Aubrac cow. It was brought up again at the conference I went to with the thought that a properly finished cow is worth more then hamburg. The french prefer to eat older animals. One of the examples given was that an older animals is in the prime of their life, this was compared to a 36 year old woman being in the prime of her life.

The French will eat horse meat over beef.

 

[Soapweed]

Mike,

I had a Charolais breeder telling me, not to be so concerned about BW on some of his bulls, cause much of the weight is do to longer calves. Thus calving is not any harder. I did use one of his bulls that had a 95lb bw. Never had a problems but that number is too high for me.

95 lb calves work for a lot of people.

I had a guy come to me and wanted the highest BW EPD bulls I had for a set of older brahma type cows.
He won the trophy from the State Beef Improvement Assoc. for the highest 205 weaning weights from those bulls. I believe it was around 700 lbs.?

He told me he never pulled a calf...............................

When I was using Charolais bulls on AngusxHereford cows, I never bred them Charolais until they had three calves. Always a bargain hunter, I could buy Char bulls with horns and 95-110# birthweights for half the price that their polled 85# herd mates were bringing. I figured there was a strong correlation between a bigger birthweight giving an eventual heavier weaning weight. We raised some good big calves, and the horns were "eliminated" with a few dollars worth of dehorning paste at the time I put in the ear tags. We didn't have to pull any calves other than if one was backwards or had a foot back. The whole system worked pretty well.

 

[Red Robin]

One of the examples given was that an older animals is in the prime of their life, this was compared to a 36 year old woman being in the prime of her life.

One difference Ben, I'm not taking the cow to bed. I think there is possibly a little different , maybe better, flavor from an animal with some maturity. 9 year old cows aren't what I have in mind. Don't believe everything you hear. If 9 year old cows were better meat, wouldn't western sizzlin steaks be higher priced than Ruth Chris? Actually Ben it sounds like I'm talking down to you. I don't intend that. If you can develop a market from grass fed beef that's real good. Every product needs a market. Just don't put much stock in someone elses experience. Go with what you know and can prove yourself. You're as smart as anyone else in this business. Don't put much stock in Red Robin or anyone else , especially when they are marketing products or ideas.

 

[Red Robin]

Mike,

I had a Charolais breeder telling me, not to be so concerned about BW on some of his bulls, cause much of the weight is do to longer calves. Thus calving is not any harder. I did use one of his bulls that had a 95lb bw. Never had a problems but that number is too high for me.

95 lb calves work for a lot of people.

I had a guy come to me and wanted the highest BW EPD bulls I had for a set of older brahma type cows.
He won the trophy from the State Beef Improvement Assoc. for the highest 205 weaning weights from those bulls. I believe it was around 700 lbs.?

He told me he never pulled a calf...............................

When I was using Charolais bulls on AngusxHereford cows, I never bred them Charolais until they had three calves. Always a bargain hunter, I could buy Char bulls with horns and 95-110# birthweights for half the price that their polled 85# herd mates were bringing. I figured there was a strong correlation between a bigger birthweight giving an eventual heavier weaning weight. We raised some good big calves, and the horns were "eliminated" with a few dollars worth of dehorning paste at the time I put in the ear tags. We didn't have to pull any calves other than if one was backwards or had a foot back. The whole system worked pretty well.

I think I remember sometime back where someone did a study and heavy BW was the best indicator of profit in a cow? I know I heard something like that. Anyone know?