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Smaller Isn't Always Better

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First of all, What the heck are you doing reading "Angus Media" lol

I was chasing light calves when I started out but have since made "Moderation in Excess" my motto.
Nothing extremely light and nothing extremely heavy. You need a cow/heifer big enough to do the job by her self while passing of a moderate birth wt. calf.
 
Faster horses said:
How small is too small and how big is too big? We love those small (75-80#)calves that can get up and run!!
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I think the article was referencing light calves 40 to 60 lb range. I agree 75 to 80lbs is a nice size for the range calving we do. I try not to buy bulls with a birth wt much over 85lbs. Considering most places selling bulls feed heavier than I do they should throw a bit lighter calves out of my cows.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
First of all, What the heck are you doing reading "Angus Media" lol
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If Red Angus count as Angus I have my share. All things in moderation. :D
 
In my part of the world.........big dead calves don't sell well. Much better to have a live small calf.
 
graybull said:
In my part of the world.........big dead calves don't sell well. Much better to have a live small calf.
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In the article that Silver posted they stated that small calves(40 to 60 lb) calves didn't do as well farther down the line.
So possibly the rancher selling those calves might do better the calves themselves have high death loss at weaning and in the feedlot.They also aren't as thrifty because they didn't get as much colostrum.
That's their theory.
Again the moderate sized caves that most of us strive for probably make us the most money.

A bunch of us are getting to old to mess around pulling big calves. I think it used to be a badge of honor to some that had cows with 6 C section scars. Showing off the dead 140 lb calf they pulled out. :?
 
Big dead calves don't pay any bills. Big live calves can be a lot of extra work if they don't get going like they should.

We know good people who use a terminal breed bull and they baby sit those cows as if they were first-calf heifers, checking them every 2 hours. That's WORK. The calves weigh a lot in the fall, tho, so as with anything, it comes down to choices.
 
Live is always better. Smaller is not. 50 to 60 lbs is too little for me. Weaning time, big is better. Birthing time, big can be too big for anyone. I like 80 on heifers, 90 on cows, but my cows are too big for most. Usually I get by fine with 100 lbs, but I don't like them. I calf late March and April, and don't feed any more than smaller cows calving in February/March because wet cows use more feed than heavies. We all need to have a program figured out that we can make work for where we are and who we are.
 
All things considered, every operation is a little different but I do think most operations are birthing calves that are too small. Too big has dire consequences. I personally am happier with a bull calf in the 90 to 100 lb. range than one less than 80. Birth weights strongly follow cow families so if a cow has a giant birth wt. calf early in her life she likely will have another. Her daughters will follow suit.
 
They have completely left out "Pelvic Size" out of the equation. That, to me, is the deciding factor between hard & easy calving cows, moreso than calf weight.

I take a good hard look and feel of the pelvic size of heifers when preg checking the first time. If they have extremely small pelvis' and are open, they take a ride. If they have extremely small openings and are bred, they get put on a watch list when calving. I can usually determine & predict which ones may have calving problems.
 
On the subject of selecting for birthweight, a very knowledgeable Angus breeder (not part of the Montana Angus Mafia :wink: ) taught me how to select for suitable bw for heifer bulls. You have to look through the pedigree of the cow as bw is highly heritable from the cow, more than from the bull. It amazes me how some of these bull producers will tout a bull as being good for heifers and you look back through the maternal pedigree and see GDAR Rito 2100, for instance. The same with the bull. YOU CANNOT GO STRICTLY BY THE BW OF THE SIRE. That gets a lot of people in trouble. You must look through the pedigree. I learned that and it served us very well. So glad he took the time to enlighten me.
 
I don't want a cow to have a calf that is far smaller or larger than she is capable of having. One cows 70 lb calf is another cows 120 lb calf. I don't like the big dummies and I don't like the runts, neither one seems more likely to make it to sale time than the other.
I guess I'm like Shortgrass, my cows are a little bigger than a lot of what the straight British cattle breeders have and are capable of having a little larger calf. I'm still just young enough to not mind putting the work in at calving time, although I think the end of that is not too far down the road.
As far as selecting bulls, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Birth weight means practically nothing. Not without context anyway. I would sooner have a 100 lb birth weight bull if he was 10 lbs less than the crop average for that herd that year than a 75 lb birth weight bull whose crop average was 85 lbs. And I want to see the mothers because after all, that's what we are making is cows, the steers are just a happy byproduct.
 
"As far as selecting bulls, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Birth weight means practically nothing. Not without context anyway. I would sooner have a 100 lb birth weight bull if he was 10 lbs less than the crop average for that herd that year than a 75 lb birth weight bull whose crop average was 85 lbs. And I want to see the mothers because after all, that's what we are making is cows, the steers are just a happy byproduct."

I am in total agreement. A person would do well to look at the contemporaries of that line of cattle to see if perhaps the 100# bw bull is an outlier of lighter bw's of that line of cattle and the same goes with a 70# bw. Rainmaker 340 is a good example. He was a 90# bw bull himself, but he is legendary as being a sure-fired heifer bull sire.
 
Mike said:
They have completely left out "Pelvic Size" out of the equation. That, to me, is the deciding factor between hard & easy calving cows, moreso than calf weight.

I take a good hard look and feel of the pelvic size of heifers when preg checking the first time. If they have extremely small pelvis' and are open, they take a ride. If they have extremely small openings and are bred, they get put on a watch list when calving. I can usually determine & predict which ones may have calving problems.
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Mike,

I started doing that about 10 years ago or better???? It has made a huge difference!

A Bull Breeder I buy from told me he wished all of his customers would do this. I agree.

Another thing I look for (Or at) is a negative correlation with BW relative to wearing Wt. So, maybe we are looking at 75-80 Lb Calves that wean above average. What I have found is those calves tend to be long and streamlined at birth and then fill out. It is the closest thing to a predictor of calve body shape I have seen. Thigh, it is on my limited sample size.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
We probably all could agree we want a vigorous calf no matter the size.
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Yup, I bet nobody wants the dead, tangled up premature twins I extracted from a 3 yr old on Sunday.
 
Mike said:
They have completely left out "Pelvic Size" out of the equation. That, to me, is the deciding factor between hard & easy calving cows, moreso than calf weight.

I take a good hard look and feel of the pelvic size of heifers when preg checking the first time. If they have extremely small pelvis' and are open, they take a ride. If they have extremely small openings and are bred, they get put on a watch list when calving. I can usually determine & predict which ones may have calving problems.
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I agree Mike. I've had lots of small frame score heifers with big pelvic area push out 90 pound calves with ease, and large framed heifers with small pelvic area need assistance. Can go many ways, but I focus more on the structure than the birth weight of the sires.
 
Structural correctness of the female is also necessary for successful calving. If she's post legged, her pelvis will be rotated upwards which is a guaranteed calving problem. 'Show ring specials' with concave backs are a good example. A nice flat back with correct tail set is what I want.
 

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