Striving for Low Costs and Sustainability

[IluvAltaBeef]

That's what my goals are. (Still got a few years to go before these plans are implemented, so right now I'm sounding like the type of person that's all talk and no action. )

Been learning a lot about cattle working at the local vet clinic in the summer and attending this fall's class with applied beef science (course created with partnership with Alberta Ag and the U of A). So....

To put these ideas into place will, ironically, cost me a fair bit to get into place. Someone was quoted to have said, in one of the threads on one of the other cattle forums I frequent (Cattle Today Forums), that raising cattle was a rich man's reality and a poor man's dream...well, guess that means I'm a poor "man". :wink:

So basically what I want to do or hope to do is, first and foremost, change the handling facilities design to better manage cattle with much less stress and danger to the handler.

Second, I want to fence off the swamp area that is in the main corrals, fence it off completely so that swamp grasses can establish themselves like out in the older pasture. The part that is closest to the barn would be one of the main corrals, and the other part on the other side of the swamp (since this swamp divides the back corral into 2) convert that to pasture. Manure piles'll be gone by the time I get to wanting to seed that part. Other parts that are also swamps should be fenced off too. I learned recently that those swamp areas or low spots that really like to collect water in spring runoff retain their quality in times of drought, and can be grazed off a little bit at odd times.

Third, crop land is converted to pasture/hay. Both hay and pasture areas would be not segregated into which is for hay and which is for pasture, because with the type of grazing I want to have (primarily MIG), pasture left over would be cut and baled for winter bale grazing. (Think about how much land I have I am able to use when I start: 2 quarter sections!) All hay/pasture sections are fenced off (obviously), as well as the more obvious swamps on there. Haven't decided whether to section off different parts of one quarter section into different pastures, though it sounds to be worth it, considering the MIG systems to be used. Primary fertilizer will be the cow patties and legumes.

As for cattle, I think my last post of what I wanted to do still reside: buy a few 3-in-1's, keep replacements, build up herd to be large enough to start crossbreeding, cull for temperment, udders, fertility, conformation, BCS, etc., AI first few years or so (thinking about leasing bull option, possibly), cows fed grass only (no grain whatsoever), 60-90 day calving season, 50-60 d breeding season (too long?), what time of year still debatable....probably early spring as nature intended...maybe background calves, dunno about preconditioning...preg check? probably can do that myself...what else did I miss?

Oh yeah breed: maybe shorthorn Maybe cross with herf, or...red angus...wanna have some breed that is moderate framed, not too big (not the big framed girls that weigh >/= 1600 lbs), is an easy keeper that raises a soggy calf and has good temperment and great feed conversion with the type of forage I'm putting them on.

Anyway, anything anyone sees amiss or whatever let me know, I got a thick skin.

(sorry for the long post btw...)

 

[cowzilla]

Think you have a lot covered. Maybe attend a grazing school or join a club for some hands on advice from some of the fellow cattle guys. I attended a 3 day crash course given by Steve Canyon here in Manitoba last winter. He's a young pup from Edmonton that has some good ideas. Can even teach old dogs like me a few tricks :wink:

 

[mytfarms]

So basically what I want to do or hope to do is, first and foremost, change the handling facilities design to better manage cattle with much less stress and danger to the handler.

Oh yeah breed: maybe shorthorn Maybe cross with herf, or...red angus...wanna have some breed that is moderate framed, not too big (not the big framed girls that weigh >/= 1600 lbs), is an easy keeper that raises a soggy calf and has good temperment and great feed conversion with the type of forage I'm putting them on.

OK, just get the facilities that'll hold cattle. Nothing fancy. Don't spend lots of money on that kinda stuff. I just attended a stockmanship seminar, and the speaker, second only to Bud Williams, said that he went out to load cattle, not to build corrals. He also stated that worrying about flags and such isn't really that big of a deal. I highly suggest getting a Bud Williams handbook such as we are getting to help you improve your stockmanship. Also, if you really want small, easy fleshing, rugged cattle, PCC genetics are the way to go. Get a base of solid PCC cows and then you can breed and improve them with OCC or DDA genetics. A few are always for sale on www.pharocattle.com , under the classifieds.

 

[IluvAltaBeef]

So basically what I want to do or hope to do is, first and foremost, change the handling facilities design to better manage cattle with much less stress and danger to the handler.

Oh yeah breed: maybe shorthorn Maybe cross with herf, or...red angus...wanna have some breed that is moderate framed, not too big (not the big framed girls that weigh >/= 1600 lbs), is an easy keeper that raises a soggy calf and has good temperment and great feed conversion with the type of forage I'm putting them on.

OK, just get the facilities that'll hold cattle. Nothing fancy. Don't spend lots of money on that kinda stuff. I just attended a stockmanship seminar, and the speaker, second only to Bud Williams, said that he went out to load cattle, not to build corrals. He also stated that worrying about flags and such isn't really that big of a deal. I highly suggest getting a Bud Williams handbook such as we are getting to help you improve your stockmanship. Also, if you really want small, easy fleshing, rugged cattle, PCC genetics are the way to go. Get a base of solid PCC cows and then you can breed and improve them with OCC or DDA genetics. A few are always for sale on www.pharocattle.com , under the classifieds.

The facilities and corrals are already there, they're good as they are, I just want to fence them out of that cursed swamp area. The handling facilities part needs to be changed, I have some ideas that might work that shouldn't be too snazzy: reuse the old alleyway, move some fences around, purchase a few more gates, and I'm thinking my biggest expenses might be a new squeeze (current one's over 30 years old), MAYBE a crowding tub (still not sure though), and MAYBE (probaby a big maybe more than a maybe not) a new loading chute (the current one's rotting away as we speak). The panels that we have right now are perfect for moving and shifting to different corrals, so no necessary cost to purchasing anything there (except diesel for the tractor :roll: ).

Been reading up on Bud Williams' and Steve Coteman's (name right??) methodologies for handling cattle, so I'm kinda familiar with their ways, still gotta read more into them though. Thanks for bringing that up...

I want some cattle that are local, there are shorthorn and hereford breeders that are practically neighbors to where the farm is, but hopefully they meet what I'm looking for in a good cow that'll do well on just grass.

Thanks for the comments so far.

 

[mytfarms]

Very good. Certainly understandable to use local cattle. Like our county judge said, don't let what I say keep you form doing what's working for you. If it's working for you, keep on going with it. The guy who spoke said tubs are nice, but not necessary. However, I have to agree a working loadout chute and head catch chute are certainly worth the money. Powder River Is the brand I recommend. I've been around for 14 years and that's how long our chute has been around. It's still going strong and is as sturdy as the day we bought it. I also recommend having a concrete slab under the chute to discourage rust and keep it up out of the mud and slop. Good luck with your enterprise.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

So basically what I want to do or hope to do is, first and foremost, change the handling facilities design to better manage cattle with much less stress and danger to the handler.

Oh yeah breed: maybe shorthorn Maybe cross with herf, or...red angus...wanna have some breed that is moderate framed, not too big (not the big framed girls that weigh >/= 1600 lbs), is an easy keeper that raises a soggy calf and has good temperment and great feed conversion with the type of forage I'm putting them on.

OK, just get the facilities that'll hold cattle. Nothing fancy. Don't spend lots of money on that kinda stuff. I just attended a stockmanship seminar, and the speaker, second only to Bud Williams, said that he went out to load cattle, not to build corrals. He also stated that worrying about flags and such isn't really that big of a deal. I highly suggest getting a Bud Williams handbook such as we are getting to help you improve your stockmanship. Also, if you really want small, easy fleshing, rugged cattle, PCC genetics are the way to go. Get a base of solid PCC cows and then you can breed and improve them with OCC or DDA genetics. A few are always for sale on www.pharocattle.com , under the classifieds.

Is Kit paying you commission?

you could pay your way thru college. :wink:

Except for the part about breeding PCC cpws to OCC or DDA to improve them. :lol:

Why not just us OCC or DDA genetics to start with. :???:

 

[per]

Your local forage assoc. will have a mentoring program. At least in southern Alberta such a program exists.

 

[mytfarms]

So basically what I want to do or hope to do is, first and foremost, change the handling facilities design to better manage cattle with much less stress and danger to the handler.

Oh yeah breed: maybe shorthorn Maybe cross with herf, or...red angus...wanna have some breed that is moderate framed, not too big (not the big framed girls that weigh >/= 1600 lbs), is an easy keeper that raises a soggy calf and has good temperment and great feed conversion with the type of forage I'm putting them on.

OK, just get the facilities that'll hold cattle. Nothing fancy. Don't spend lots of money on that kinda stuff. I just attended a stockmanship seminar, and the speaker, second only to Bud Williams, said that he went out to load cattle, not to build corrals. He also stated that worrying about flags and such isn't really that big of a deal. I highly suggest getting a Bud Williams handbook such as we are getting to help you improve your stockmanship. Also, if you really want small, easy fleshing, rugged cattle, PCC genetics are the way to go. Get a base of solid PCC cows and then you can breed and improve them with OCC or DDA genetics. A few are always for sale on www.pharocattle.com , under the classifieds.

Is Kit paying you commission?

you could pay your way thru college. :wink:

Except for the part about breeding PCC cpws to OCC or DDA to improve them. :lol:

Why not just us OCC or DDA genetics to start with. :???:

Naw, I like to work halfway hard to get my money. DDA and OCC are actually, more or less, Pharo genetics anyway. For example, Kit himself doesn't produce all the cattle he sells, so I actually own some MH and OH genetics. I guess what I was trying to say is that Kit doesn't necessarily have exactly what you think you need to complement your cattle. You want a bigger $W without sacrificing frame and efficiency? Go OCC. Sorry to Kit, but his cattle can be improved in certain areas. DDA and OCC just happen to be the right ones to improve with. Kit doesn't sell a brand of cattle. He sells a different type that can vary a little and have genes from all over the board that just happen to meet his criteria. Hope that clears things up.

 

[IluvAltaBeef]

The guy who spoke said tubs are nice, but not necessary. However, I have to agree a working loadout chute and head catch chute are certainly worth the money. Powder River Is the brand I recommend. I've been around for 14 years and that's how long our chute has been around. It's still going strong and is as sturdy as the day we bought it. I also recommend having a concrete slab under the chute to discourage rust and keep it up out of the mud and slop. Good luck with your enterprise.

Yeah I have an option (reason I said maybe) to make my own tub from grainery rings reinforced with thick posts 4' apart, sunk into the earth at the recommended depth (was it 4' or 6' ?) The gate I'd have to think about, how that's going to be built, but it shouldn't be too hard to figger out. As well as welding or bolting in some iron bars acting as a rachet for the gate to lock in place in different spots in the tub when pushing the animals in (hope I said that right ). I got a lot of options of using 2W equipment, or Hi-Hog equipment (a little more expensive than 2W), which ever sells at better prices at one of the farm supply stores up here. Concrete would be expensive, but an option to consider, thanks.

I could post on what my changes would be from now to when it gets changed, if anyone's interested?

 

[IluvAltaBeef]

Your local forage assoc. will have a mentoring program. At least in southern Alberta such a program exists.

There are seminars hosted every year by the Western Forage and Beef group every year that I'd like to go to, and I think there's a Pasture school program that's hosted by the Alberta Ag department, if I'm correct, every summer. I haven't heard of any local forage association having a mentoring program up here, but it's worth a look around to see if there's any.

 

[PureCountry]

Just Google "Alberta Grazing Mentorship Program".

Steve Kenyon is one of the Grazing Mentors for Northern Alberta, Bruce Downey is at Castor, they're both very good.

They're going to tell you somethings like this:

Do what suits your soil type and forage base best. If you have deep, black topsoil, you can get away with grazing your hayfields after cutting and baling them. If you're in a light sandy area like us, that practice will only mine your soil of it's nutrients that much faster.

Give your pastures sufficient rest. Don't leave cows on a piece of ground all summer - this constitutes overgrazing. Put them on for a short period, and take them off for 60-100 days, again based on your region. And by short period, I mean whatever you decide is short or long enough. If you have 10 paddocks of the same type and size, and you want to give the first one 100 days rest, you need to spend 100 days on the other 9 paddocks, so you graze them each for 11 days roughly. Did I explain that alright?

It can all seem very complex at first, but it's really as simple as putting pencil to paper and making a plan, just like you've done in your first thread. You set goals for your "dream" operation, so should you set goals for your cowherd, and your pastures. Have a vision of what you want your cows to look like, and your pastures also. It helps to keep you focused.

If you'd like some names and numbers of some very helpful people that we've worked with, just PM me and I'll put together a list. :wink:

 

[RobertMac]

Random thoughts worth what you're paying for them...

Cattle want to go out the way they came in.

Nervous cattle tend to be in the last group you work. Have open gates for them to go through(or they will make one) to get them where you want them(preferably on on a trailer going to town).

With all your high headed cattle gone, there is no need to build a fortress to work your cattle in and it makes working cattle so much more enjoyable...not to mention safer!

Continuous grazing waste resources...some from of rotational grazing will increase your feed supply (by as much as 40%).

Move your cattle according to how fast your forage grows...without irrigation, a constant variable.

Ideally, don't graze the same plant within 5-7 days...ideally!!!

First law of plant physiology...the surface area of the plant above ground roughly equals the surface area below ground. When you rest your plants to grow forage, they also grow roots that help build organic matter. (with environmental wackos in government, they may pay us to grow pasture. :roll: :wink: :roll: )

The best genetics are the ones adapted to your natural resources...the less you do for your cattle, the easier it is to see which ones aren't adapted.

The best adapted cattle are the ones whose body temp varies the least...the ones whose body temp varies the least have a properly functioning endocrine system...the most sensitive indicator of a properly functioning endocrine system is reproduction. Do the least economically feasible for your cattle and select for fertility.

Fastest way to get functionally efficient cattle...buy from someone that has already done the above.

Functionally efficient cows will make you more money than weaning weight bragging rights. A dollar saved is a dollar earned...a dollar from increased performance came at a cost.

Linebreeding concentrates genetics...crossbreeding/outcrossing covers genetic flaws.

 

[IluvAltaBeef]

Thank you all very much for your responses. RobertMac, some good info to go by, thanks.

PC, could I get those names by any chance? I'm interested to see who will be of any help to me.

Thanks again all!