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Badlands said:
Soapweed,

I thought some of those calves you've posted that last week or so looked DANG big.

What is the protein % on the cake?

Too much protein can put some size into the calves. It is also the reason that just about every horse book you read nowadays tells you to have the Vet present when foaling. They feed those horses too much alfalfa hay. Then they give them more protein on top of it. If you let them graze and no protein, then they are fine.

It also makes the placenta really tough. It will make it tough enough on mares that they have trouble foaling, or the foals can't break out of it. For cows, it will make it tough enough that the calf will pull the uterus right out when they come.

I don't know what your protein is, but if you are getting up to or over 18%, it can get you. Under some circumstances, even 16% can get you in trouble.

Badlands
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Thanks for the info, Badlands. I will certainly take it into consideration in the future.
 
Just dawned on me Soapweed, as you are getting into the later calving now, these cows have had access to cake for a longer period of time before calving than the early cows assuming you had them in the same groups as those that cavled earlier.

Also, as they get nearer calving, then they are eating less forage since they are full of calf, therefore a higher percent of cake in their diet, so you might be getting a bit of a double-whammy here at the end of calving. On cake for a longer time, plus a larger percent of their ration.

Badlands
 
Early on our cows were getting two pounds per day of 30% DDG cake, with 3.5% fat. The grass wasn't very good or very plentiful. When they got hay, to start with it was rushes, then old hay and other poor quality swampy type grass hay. They've only been getting about two-thirds as much hay as I would normally give them, but hay needs to be rationed out this year or we won't make it until the new grass is good enough to depend on. The first 30% DDG cake I booked was delivered in at $180 per ton in bulk. As I didn't book enough, the price rose to $230 per ton delivered for the same product. The last three weeks I've dropped the protein content to 20% DDG cake, as the cows are now getting higher quality hay even though they are still not getting a full feed of hay. Magnesium has also been added to our last load of cake, for aid in the prevention of grass tetany.

Our cows are becoming too big. I try to buy bulls of moderate frame, but the genetics are there for modern cattle to just get too big. I hauled ten head of running age cull cows to a sale barn today. They averaged 1370 pounds, and averaged $46.30 per cwt. or $634.40 per head. At least that is ten head that will no longer be depleting our hay supply.
 
Soapweed.........are you feeding a balancer with the cake? Sulphur levels can be awful high with distiller's products. Extra thyamine is needed when feeding distiller's. How many #'s of cake per head per day?

I guess I have heard/seen too many horror stories about feeding distiller's products to range cows. More research needs to be done in this area.
 
loomixguy said:
Soapweed.........are you feeding a balancer with the cake? Sulphur levels can be awful high with distiller's products. Extra thyamine is needed when feeding distiller's. How many #'s of cake per head per day?

I guess I have heard/seen too many horror stories about feeding distiller's products to range cows. More research needs to be done in this area.
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Two pounds per head per day. Guess I don't know what a "balancer" is. I thought is was a half Gelbvieh-half Angus bull. :wink:
 
Cal said:
We're not as far into calving the cows as you are, since it was my brilliant idea to move the calving date back a little....and then we've had such nice weather. It seems like things have been about average, though. This afternoon we pulled a pretty big backwards calf from an old cow. The calf was dead and the cow still can't stand up....like I said, average. :wink: We've fed pretty much the same as the last few years; DDG with a ground hay carrier, and then meadow hay and quite a bit of other carryover hay that needed to be gotten rid of.
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That is a topic that always interests me Cal. I always thought that people that watched their cattle closely during calving always had more backwards calves than those of us who don't look at them as much. :wink: :???: Of course we have backwards calves too, but we do not know about them unless we run into a tough one like the one you mentioned. Thankfully we almost never know we have one. Or footbacks for that matter, unless it is both feet back. :x We had a two year old heifer calve this year, who was trying to have a calf with a foot back, and I pulled the calf, but I think she had enough room to have it herself. But heifers with a big pelvic area probably have calves with a big pelvis too, so it is still not a cure all. Our heifer calving is just over half done, and they have been keeping me busy checking them, but thankfully they have been having most of them by themselves.
 
Well, hang in there until the end Soapweed, you've got to be close to it. It sounds like the protein might be the problem. If you ask the feed guys about it, they won't have a clue though. :wink: My "protein overload" theory was given to me by an old rancher, not an academic.

I know you don't like EPD, but you might want to look at the one that is getting to you. MW EPD. Don't buy bulls from guys who won't weigh their cows. "Nature" doesn't sort them well enough. "Eyeballs" probably won't either. These things creep up on good folks as well as high performance crooks. You'll only change it if you take charge of it. Of course, you have to be careful as some of the "proported" moderate herds, really aren't, they are just "tough enough to take malnutrition". An apology for giving advice you didn't ask for. :wink: I guess I see MW creeping up on lot's of folks, so I thought I'd beat you over the head with the EPD stick. :twisted:

Seriously though, at this point in time, the AVERAGE Angus bull will produce the same YW and MW as Simmentals, and will actually be larger than Gelbvieh. This is documented SE of you down at MARC. So, if you just ignore EPD, chances are you are buying somewhere close to "average" bulls, or maybe even a little below. If below average is getting you in trouble, then you might benefit by looking at them more and backing down from the level you have. In other words, you might need to use EPD to get rid of cattle that won't work for you, rather than selecting cattle that will. It's how I use them primarily. I use them to avoid change just as much as to make change.


Badlands
 
A balancer is basically a vitamin/mineral package that is jacked up with ingredients such as thiamine to counteract the negative effects of distiller's products. Your closest ADM/Alliance dealer should have information and product on hand, or he can get it.

If there was anyway you could get your hands on some straw or CRP hay it would be a good idea to do so. Those old girls need to be full of some kind of roughage at this point. Doesn't have to be good, just has to go in 'em. But with the moisture we've had, grass may come quick enough to help the situation out. Hope all goes well for you.
 
Badlands said:
Well, hang in there until the end Soapweed, you've got to be close to it. It sounds like the protein might be the problem. If you ask the feed guys about it, they won't have a clue though. :wink: My "protein overload" theory was given to me by an old rancher, not an academic.

I know you don't like EPD, but you might want to look at the one that is getting to you. MW EPD. Don't buy bulls from guys who won't weigh their cows. "Nature" doesn't sort them well enough. "Eyeballs" probably won't either. These things creep up on good folks as well as high performance crooks. You'll only change it if you take charge of it. Of course, you have to be careful as some of the "proported" moderate herds, really aren't, they are just "tough enough to take malnutrition". An apology for giving advice you didn't ask for. :wink: I guess I see MW creeping up on lot's of folks, so I thought I'd beat you over the head with the EPD stick. :twisted:

Seriously though, at this point in time, the AVERAGE Angus bull will produce the same YW and MW as Simmentals, and will actually be larger than Gelbvieh. This is documented SE of you down at MARC. So, if you just ignore EPD, chances are you are buying somewhere close to "average" bulls, or maybe even a little below. If below average is getting you in trouble, then you might benefit by looking at them more and backing down from the level you have. In other words, you might need to use EPD to get rid of cattle that won't work for you, rather than selecting cattle that will. It's how I use them primarily. I use them to avoid change just as much as to make change.


Badlands
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We have had a few more calving problems this spring than normal, but a person can't luck out every year. All things considered, there aren't too many ranchers that I would trade cattle with, either quality-wise or disposition-wise. Most of our cows are docile and easily handled on foot or horseback. Whenever I take a bunch of cull cows into a sale barn, I get to watch quite a few other cattle go through the ring. I am usually fairly proud when the auctioneer announces that the next cows are from our ranch. I do, however, recognize the fact that cattle all over the countryside are getting too big. Our cows seem to be following that trend. It is hard to buy moderate sized bulls, when all the breeders are going for "big."
 
Right, Soapweed.

Where it get's tough too, is that now the cows are actually heavier than ever at the Seedstock level, but are shorter in frame than they were 15 years ago.

So, they add growth and mature weight, but then can talk about how they have moderated them.

It's bull$hit. They are bigger (heavier) than ever, they just aren't as tall as they used to be on the average.

Badlands
 

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