I'm not sure how to approach this subject. I've learned a lot in the past year. #1 There is a BIG difference between "fair" and "equal". #2 Don't make important family decisions when your 85 and in failing health. I believe a person doesn't think clearly. #3 Don't let some high dollar accountant shove something down your throat if your not happy with it. 15 years ago my dad formed a partnership with my only brother. Dad said it was only to transfer farm assets out of his name to avoid estate/inheritance taxes. I was also told partnerships were between two people only, never three or four or more. I was not included in the partnership, obviously. I've lived my entire life on this farm. I cooked meals for all the help for 30 years. Drove tractors, fixed fence, watched 350 cow/calf pairs through the summer gazing, sprayed musk thistle until I saw the things in my dreams! I put together my own cows and in exchange for my labor, the farm fed my cows through the winter. Summer they went to grass I was buying with my calf check! Dad's health deteriorated and he is in an assisted living facility now. My brother has the check book and no one to tell him "no". Bad deal. Some changes are in order but I never imagined what they would be. We had all the machinery, any asset of the farm appraised. My brother was allowed to value the cattle. Amazingly, they were all worth $500 a head. I could not contest any values because I was not in the Partnership. If Dad was happy with the values, so be it. My sister, who is not involved with the farm, and I were bought out - equal amounts to both of us. Sweat equity didn't count. I am not welcome on any of the land. All locks on buildings have been changed, locks put on all gates into pastures. My brother and I haven't talked in over a year. Mom & Dad just don't understand what went wrong. There it is, in a condensed version. It's torn my family apart. It's eliminated my two sons from being part of the farm. They will have to buy their way in if my brother allows. PLEASE, think about future generations. Think about the past generations who worked so hard for our farms and our way of life. Have respect for the past, present and future.
Succession Planning
- Thread starter DejaVu
- Start date
Faster horses
Well-known member
That is a sad story and I admire you for telling it and trying to WARN
others how bad it can get. I think when this happens period, it's bad;
but to happen in families, that is terrible.
I hope it gets better for you. Hang in there!
others how bad it can get. I think when this happens period, it's bad;
but to happen in families, that is terrible.
I hope it gets better for you. Hang in there!
Nicky
Well-known member
That is sad and I feel very bad for you. I have seen basically the same thing happen and it tears families apart. Our 'adopted' sister and her husbands family have just gone through something similar, his folks are about your folks age. And it was ugly! Our nieghbors still don't have anything set up even tho they just saw what their daughter and son in law went through. So much trauma that can easily (comparatively) be stopped from ever happening.
PureCountry
Well-known member
It's a sad truth in this world. First rule in business is have everything done pen-to-paper, and 2nd rule, is pie-plate-to-buttocks. Cover your @$$. We lost 6 1/4 sections of rented pasture this week, 5 of which were rented from a relative last year. You just don't know if you don't have it in writing.
Good news for us, is that my parents have been absolutely wonderful in working with the wife and I on our succession plan. Sold us the pasture land a few years back for a bargain price, and we put together a plan to buy the crop land when we could afford it. Well, that day came this winter, and we've now bought the cropland in a way that we can afford the financing, as well as some money to seed it all down to forage. Mom and Dad's first priority is always to just be close to us and their Grandkids. The rest takes care of itself with a lot of planning, a little communication, and a lot of work.
Good news for us, is that my parents have been absolutely wonderful in working with the wife and I on our succession plan. Sold us the pasture land a few years back for a bargain price, and we put together a plan to buy the crop land when we could afford it. Well, that day came this winter, and we've now bought the cropland in a way that we can afford the financing, as well as some money to seed it all down to forage. Mom and Dad's first priority is always to just be close to us and their Grandkids. The rest takes care of itself with a lot of planning, a little communication, and a lot of work.
WyomingRancher
Well-known member
That's a terrible story, I hope you can find peace with it someday.
People need to realize they won't be taking the land, AND CONTROL with them when they die, they need to have the courage to make plans while they're still on the top of the soil so that others can plan accordingly :wink: .
People need to realize they won't be taking the land, AND CONTROL with them when they die, they need to have the courage to make plans while they're still on the top of the soil so that others can plan accordingly :wink: .
Big Muddy rancher
Well-known member
Sad story DejaVu, One i hope I can avoid with my family. We are living through one succession plan with my folks which has been good and we are starting our own to deal with our family. As i get into this one I see somethings that could have worked better in my parents plan.
We only had two sibling for my parents to deal with and one had her own life away from the ranch. We have three with two hoping to ranch. :?
I hope some that have more experience can help us out on this thread if they feel comfortable.
We only had two sibling for my parents to deal with and one had her own life away from the ranch. We have three with two hoping to ranch. :?
I hope some that have more experience can help us out on this thread if they feel comfortable.
Horseless
Well-known member
It is rare to hear of a family's succesion plan that everybody is happy with, especially when there is many involved. Communication is key. If you were interested in this operation, I hope you made this clear to your parents years ago. If you did make that clear, did you state that you wanted to operated this with your brother or you just wanted part of it to have as your own?
My point is that if the operation gets split, the chances of either party making it is very slim. I believe for the operation as a whole, it is best that it stays together. If you want to be part of that management with your brother, then you better really work on the communications. Then you need have a plan in place that is not your parents plan, but yours and your brothers' plan.
My point is that if the operation gets split, the chances of either party making it is very slim. I believe for the operation as a whole, it is best that it stays together. If you want to be part of that management with your brother, then you better really work on the communications. Then you need have a plan in place that is not your parents plan, but yours and your brothers' plan.
burnt
Well-known member
Denny said:
You bring to mind the story of a young neighbour lad who grassed about 20 calves in with his uncle's 200 head on a remote pasture. Come fall there were 2 calves short and they had no way of knowing which ones were gone.
The uncle quickly took matters in hand and told his nephew "If you're in it for the good, you're in it for the bad - one was mine and one was yours . . ." :shock:
I have always been fortunate in family dealings but then I may not always be tough enough when addressing things. When my new bride and I bought the farm from Dad in '84 we simply paid him very close to market value, like within 90% of what he could have gotten through a Realtor, and he held the mortgage. When he passed away 11 years later, we had to pay out the estate so it could be distributed to the family.
Only then did I see that the rest of the family got the benefit of a good price for the farm when it had been my work that had kept it running and improving for Dad for the last 10 years that he had owned it. In that period of time farm values grew significantly.
Was that fair to my wife and I? Probably not. Was I going to cause ripples in a family over what maybe should have been? Definitely not.
However, looking back at it with the burdensome mortgage that we had through some very tough years in the 80's, I have had to wonder if I should have at least started a discussion addressing the inequity of the matter.
But here is the good news - we only have 2 or 3 more payments left so in about 1 year it will be debt free!
One thing that causes problems in so many of these deals is that there is far too much assumed and never decided and recorded.
Tough subject. We just went to our lawyer to see how we can change our will so things hopefully will go smooth. I liked his suggestion that our farmer son buy the land at a reasonble price that he would be able to find lending for. Reason being it wasn't good to make our kids have to deal with each other in a business sense by giving some land to each kid hoping they would rent it to the farmer kid. He said as kids get older and have kids of their own the family as we know it now will not have as close of family ties. Dont't force the kids to have to deal with each other after we are dead. Having the farmer son buy the land even if it is below value all the kids would still share in the money. Right now all the kids understand why we would do this and they want the family farm to go on. Good luck everyone and try not to use your will as a control tool.
I've heard of work share's where the more time working the ranch equalled more shares for the kid's. The kid who did'nt help did'nt recieve either.I would be up front about it and tell them what's what and see if they really want to earn a piece of the pie. Knowone is entitled just because. I have a grown daughter who's off in big city living she would'nt dirty her shoe's to help anyone so in turn she won't be reaping benefit's from the kids that do help. My youngest son eat sleep's and breath's ranching.He's in 3rd grade and need's to have Hernia surgery next week. I know he got the hernia in his quest to be big he's gotta work as hard as any grown man but he's just not big enough YET. My stepson is a senior in high school and is of no help ever. He has a Mountain dew in one hand and a cigarette in the other but he's COOL.
Kid's suffer from several disease's. They are "You Owe Me's" "Poor Me's" and the "Gimme's" but in the same sense alot of the about to be retired suffer from the same Greed factor's.
Just because they are your children does'nt give them a right to something another sibling helped pay for in sweat and time.
My wife and I fight over this quite a bit I just figure start buying stuff in the kid's name and renting it back to the ranch for use in the end it's already his.
Kid's suffer from several disease's. They are "You Owe Me's" "Poor Me's" and the "Gimme's" but in the same sense alot of the about to be retired suffer from the same Greed factor's.
Just because they are your children does'nt give them a right to something another sibling helped pay for in sweat and time.
My wife and I fight over this quite a bit I just figure start buying stuff in the kid's name and renting it back to the ranch for use in the end it's already his.
Broke Cowboy
Well-known member
Advance planning.
Yeah we see this all the time on this site and the other site Macon runs.
Problem is that this planning costs money and most do not want to spend it - because they can always do it tomorrow.
You will see more of this coming along. And it will be another heartache.
Spend the money to do the planning now - do at least an annual update - and save the family.
One never knows - young and healthy - vehicle accident takes the owners - old age and death takes the owners.
Either way - if there is no plan in place, the ranch and family are at serious risk - do you really want that?
You do not cover your bases - most assets end up sold to the highest bidder or the family tears the ranch and themselves apart - greed and grief make horrible partners.
So if you are a 30 year old rancher or an 80 year old rancher - ask yourself this question:
What happens if I die tonight?
If you do not like the answer it is time to act.
Many will not and it is too late when the family starts to fight and you are in the ground.
After all there is always time to sort it out before I die!!
I am off a real nice place because of similar circumstance - we put our own place together - my kids will never go through that - it is all sorted and updated with the kids present (has been like this since they were old enough to talk) - we do it annually.
Sad story - wish you all the best in this one.
BC
Yeah we see this all the time on this site and the other site Macon runs.
Problem is that this planning costs money and most do not want to spend it - because they can always do it tomorrow.
You will see more of this coming along. And it will be another heartache.
Spend the money to do the planning now - do at least an annual update - and save the family.
One never knows - young and healthy - vehicle accident takes the owners - old age and death takes the owners.
Either way - if there is no plan in place, the ranch and family are at serious risk - do you really want that?
You do not cover your bases - most assets end up sold to the highest bidder or the family tears the ranch and themselves apart - greed and grief make horrible partners.
So if you are a 30 year old rancher or an 80 year old rancher - ask yourself this question:
What happens if I die tonight?
If you do not like the answer it is time to act.
Many will not and it is too late when the family starts to fight and you are in the ground.
After all there is always time to sort it out before I die!!
I am off a real nice place because of similar circumstance - we put our own place together - my kids will never go through that - it is all sorted and updated with the kids present (has been like this since they were old enough to talk) - we do it annually.
Sad story - wish you all the best in this one.
BC
per
Well-known member
Tough story Deja, we have been down some of this canoe trip. In all fairness my father has tried to be fair not equal. I have the same story as PC with an uncle. Lost a couple of sections of farm land. Turned out good as it freed up time to spend with the family. Our succession planning has been ongoing for years. I have 2 non farming sisters in which one of them wants the valuable parts of the place and is the candy apple princess besides. My wife and I insured my parents with a last to survive plan in order to buy the sisters out when the time comes. If that doesn't work I may be a hobby rancher when it is all over. The bright side is though that we are being squeezed by the city and could move if we wanted to continue. I have suggested that if they want 1/3 of all that I have and all the improvements and added equity to my parents wealth and the fact that I kept it together then we could all throw everything in the pot, their houses, businesses, savings, everything and we will have it appraised and divided by 3. They don't think that is fair. lol
Cal
Well-known member
Sounds like a shtty deal, since you lived there and that was your life. For whatever reason, that's the way your parents wanted it. Have you considered taking your money and moving as far away as possible, so you and your kids won't be consumed by the ongoing saga and anomosity? Seriously, who wants to live like that?DejaVu said:
Cal
Well-known member
Have you considered a life insurance policy, or some other non-farm asset for your non-farming kids? It's too bad your kid that stayed on the farm may be saddled with considerable(?) land debt. Just my 2 cents....debt is (can be) a potentially dangerous and restrictive way to live and operate.feeder said:
WyomingRancher
Well-known member
per said:
I almost married into a ranch family where the brothers were already fighting over land the one brother was leasing from the ranch for his own personal cow herd. The brother who was going to eventually inherit that particular piece of land accused the other of overgrazing and damaging his inheritance :roll: . Any guesses on how this family is going to act once the parents actually die???
And people wonder why I decided to pass that deal up, just think I could've been married into the WHOLE family mess...good times! I think I'll stick to my simple life for now, I know when I've got a good deal :wink:
.Sure sorry to hear others going through it though. It does seem to ruin both families and ranches.
Thanks to all of you for your concern and comments. I have a will and my two sons know exactly what is what. If I can motivate someone to make better choices for their kids, that's good. My brother suffers from what I call the "Sacred Son Syndrome". He's the only son of parents that placed a lot of value on having a son. The wonderful side of this is, I have found out how many great friends I have. And, I also learned where to put my problems, Jesus.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
I just won't comment on this one.
Horseless
Well-known member
Northern Rancher,
You are smarter than I am, & I should know better, but.......
I would hate to live my life seperated from my family. Things aren't always perfect and there is always two sides to the story. I am not picking sides, but maybe someone else can learn from this. Learn to communicate and look for compromise and solutions, not blame.
You can't change the past.
You are smarter than I am, & I should know better, but.......
Cal said:
I would hate to live my life seperated from my family. Things aren't always perfect and there is always two sides to the story. I am not picking sides, but maybe someone else can learn from this. Learn to communicate and look for compromise and solutions, not blame.
You can't change the past.
I don't want or expect comments on what I said about the "Syndrome". In my area, there is a very strong old culture that favors the son of the family. In some cases, everything is given to the oldest son with no consideration to other children. My dad was probably naive in his thinking that he would pass the farm on to my brother and he would continue with the family involvement just as dad had. Communication is very taboo in my family.
Some still live in the 19th century! Enough of this, lets move on to something better, okay?! It's obvious, everyone has dealt with family problems in one way or another.
Some still live in the 19th century! Enough of this, lets move on to something better, okay?! It's obvious, everyone has dealt with family problems in one way or another.