Taking the Bull by the Horns

[Sandhusker]

Texan, "Sandhusker, affidavits alone are NOT going to be sufficient to verify US born. REAL verification will take production records that are available for audit by somebody. If you want the federal government to be in charge, I think we should expect them to be that somebody."

I disagree and ask you why a signed affidavit would not be sufficient - it's sufficient for the IRS.

 

[Soapweed]

It is not COOL that I am against--in fact I am highly in favor of COOL done in the right fashion. What I consider to be the "right fashion" would be voluntarily on branded beef that has met certain requirements. I just don't want to be assessed an extra cost in my production with no hope in retrieving it, like mandatory COOL controlled by the government would be.

Sandhusker, you like outside the box examples to further your arguements. Here is my take on how it will be. This exta cost in production that mandatory COOL would involve would be like you having to pay for a speeding ticket every time you went to Valentine. Not only would the trip to town be delayed every time from getting pulled over, but a stiff fine would also be involved. Believe it or not, M-COOL will end up doing just this.

I understand your concerns and appreciate attention to the bottom of the cash flow statement :lol: , but what extra costs of production are you going to have? All I see is the cost of one sheet of paper that states, "Any and all of the cattle carrying my registered brand have spent their entire lives in the USA." Ooops, you might have to make some copies. I"ll make them for you for free - heck, I'll do your original for free, too. Now, what other expenses are there?

I do admire the uncomplicated view that you are acquiring through those rose-colored glasses, but being older and more of a wise guy :wink: I realize that sometimes life is not as uncomplicated as we perceive. Believe me, if the government mandates anything, their sticky little fingers complicate things in a hurry.

You also fail to consider the cattle that bounce back and forth across both the Canadian and Mexico lines. They will be cattle without a port to pass in. Will they get Canadian, USA, or a Mexico label? They basically would not qualify for any of these designations, so would that render them unedible?

All cattle with a USA upbringing are not top-of-the-line. In fact half of these catte are under average. If a discerning housewife buys a package of meat that doesn't taste good, and that package has a "born and raised in the USA" label, it will make her pretty gunshy about ever trying USA beef again. She might purposely try to buy beef from Argentina if she thinks USA beef is not good. Now if that same housewife buys a package of branded beef with a voluntary USA country-of-origin label, and it doesn't taste good, she will still have the option of buying other branded products from the USA to try again before she resorts to purposely buying foreign beef. That is a worse-case scenario. Because the beef is branded with a voluntary USA label, and that beef meets other certain stringent requirements, chances of that housewife being disappointed in the first place are relatively small.

 

[Anonymous]

BUT...I do that for somebody that has their checkbook in hand. Not for a government bureaucrat that expects me to get on my knees at his convenience. :x

Well unless GW or Cheneys new 4th Branch of the government take some more of our Constitutional and States rights--I'm not that worried....
They can't even figure out how or don't have enough government people to close a border or run down 12 million illegals- so I don't think they will be having time to kick in doors with their USDA Gestapo....

I haven't ever bought- nor will I ever buy any foreign born cattle- so I have nothing to hide/ nor much reason to look at my books....

TEXAN-- What cost do you think is going to come with your mandatory ID?

 

[katrina]

Hello!!!! It's time we backed our product ( U.S.beef) from pasture to plate........ No more numbers games......

 

[RobertMac]

:nod: Yep, I agree completely.

WHAT EXTRA COSTS????

Sandhusker, affidavits alone are NOT going to be sufficient to verify US born. REAL verification will take production records that are available for audit by somebody. If you want the federal government to be in charge, I think we should expect them to be that somebody.

Any dealings with the government (or anybody else) that will allow them access to our records will come with a cost to the producer - even if that cost is only some of our time. M-COOL will come with a cost for ALL producers - even those of us that are not in favor of it.

Carolyn Carey and I got what we got with signed affidavits!

OH!!! It does say punishable by law if you lie to them!!!!!

You should stop fighting wind mills! :wink:

 

[Texan]

I disagree and ask you why a signed affidavit would not be sufficient - it's sufficient for the IRS.

Good grief, Sandhusker. :???:

It's sufficient for the IRS because we have to submit to an audit upon demand!

We have to be able to PROVE that our tax return is factually correct. We have to prove that we're not lying. In the event of an audit, we have to have records to do that. I suppose you think that an IRS audit comes with no costs?

 

[Sandhusker]

I disagree and ask you why a signed affidavit would not be sufficient - it's sufficient for the IRS.

Good grief, Sandhusker. :???:

It's sufficient for the IRS because we have to submit to an audit upon demand!

We have to be able to PROVE that our tax return is factually correct. We have to prove that we're not lying. In the event of an audit, we have to have records to do that. I suppose you think that an IRS audit comes with no costs?

Fine, you get audited. You give them the paper I discribed earlier guaranteeing that any animal carrying your brand or even on your place has spent their entire life in the US. The audit has been completed and took 30 seconds. A detailed record of every flipping pasture the animal has been in isn't going to tell them any more and isn't guaranteed to be any more truthful.

 

[katrina]

All cattle with a USA upbringing are not top-of-the-line. In fact half of these catte are under average. If a discerning housewife buys a package of meat that doesn't taste good, and that package has a "born and raised in the USA" label, it will make her pretty gunshy about ever trying USA beef again

Soap, Quality cattle (like yours) will grade better which makes a better product for the consumer.. Poor quality doesn't grade which is or should be ground..

Bless your heart. It's the numbers game again..... X amount number of cattle = $ for you

When it should be X amount of high quality cattle = $$$ for you...

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear........

 

[PORKER]

It's easy for me and most folks. I will swear on my mother's grave and sign whatever makes them happy certifying that any animal carrying my brand has never been North of Bennett County, South Dakota. SandHusker Quote

Here is a Free One to Use;

https://www.scoringag.com//scoringag/3/files/Affidavit_Form.doc

 

[RobertMac]

All cattle with a USA upbringing are not top-of-the-line. In fact half of these catte are under average. If a discerning housewife buys a package of meat that doesn't taste good, and that package has a "born and raised in the USA" label, it will make her pretty gunshy about ever trying USA beef again. She might purposely try to buy beef from Argentina if she thinks USA beef is not good. Now if that same housewife buys a package of branded beef with a voluntary USA country-of-origin label, and it doesn't taste good, she will still have the option of buying other branded products from the USA to try again before she resorts to purposely buying foreign beef. That is a worse-case scenario. Because the beef is branded with a voluntary USA label, and that beef meets other certain stringent requirements, chances of that housewife being disappointed in the first place are relatively small.

You may have a point...if the housewife buys generic unmarked beef and doesn't like it, we can always blame it on that sorry imported beef!!!!!! :wink: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Katrina, please don't bring any sensibility to this debate. :wink: :lol:

 

[Texan]

TEXAN-- What cost do you think is going to come with your mandatory ID?

OT, I've always recognized the fact that ID will come with a cost to cattlemen. I'm not sure what that cost would have been. For you guys in brand states, the cost would have been minimal. But, even if you just had to provide your records for somebody, there would still be a cost associated with it.

For the rest of us that aren't in brand states, I'm guessing that it would have probably ended up at around five to six dollars a head when all costs are factored in and averaged out. Certainly not something that I was anxious to do, but I'm convinced that one of these days we'll regret not doing it.

I'm still not wavering in my support for ID. I really wish that cattlemen could have worked together to come up with a plan that would have worked for all of us. But I'm realistic and practical enough to realize now that it won't happen until AFTER we need it. Or else...

...it'll happen as a result of dems in Congress shoving it down our throats as something that will benefit consumers instead of us being able to work together to come up with something that would benefit cattlemen.

 

[katrina]

Robert, Someday I'm coming down to see your operation... I think you are the cat's meow and we all should see how it's done...... :nod: :clap:

 

[Soapweed]

All cattle with a USA upbringing are not top-of-the-line. In fact half of these catte are under average. If a discerning housewife buys a package of meat that doesn't taste good, and that package has a "born and raised in the USA" label, it will make her pretty gunshy about ever trying USA beef again

Soap, Quality cattle (like yours) will grade better which makes a better product for the consumer.. Poor quality doesn't grade which is or should be ground..

Bless your heart. It's the numbers game again..... X amount number of cattle = $ for you

When it should be X amount of high quality cattle = $$$ for you...

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear........

You are right, it is a numbers game. If it costs me X amount per head for the government to mandate COOL, and this money is not recoverable, I am out X amount of dollars per head.

I do like to think that our Spearhead branded cattle are above average of the cattle "born and raised in the USA." That is why I don't like the idea of poor quality cattle riding on my coattails if all USA cattle get the same designation.

 

[Texan]

Fine, you get audited. You give them the paper I discribed earlier guaranteeing that any animal carrying your brand or even on your place has spent their entire life in the US. The audit has been completed and took 30 seconds. A detailed record of every flipping pasture the animal has been in isn't going to tell them any more and isn't guaranteed to be any more truthful.

It's not fine with ME if I get audited. Maybe I should send the bank examiners in there next week? After all, it won't cost you anything, will it?

Your plan really sounds like a good way to build consumer confidence in COOL. All a guy has to do is be willing to lie and he gets the same label as everybody else? :???:

 

[Sandhusker]

WHAT EXTRA COSTS?

 

[Sandhusker]

Fine, you get audited. You give them the paper I discribed earlier guaranteeing that any animal carrying your brand or even on your place has spent their entire life in the US. The audit has been completed and took 30 seconds. A detailed record of every flipping pasture the animal has been in isn't going to tell them any more and isn't guaranteed to be any more truthful.

It's not fine with ME if I get audited. Maybe I should send the bank examiners in there next week? After all, it won't cost you anything, will it?

Your plan really sounds like a good way to build consumer confidence in COOL. All a guy has to do is be willing to lie and he gets the same label as everybody else? :???:

You can lie on your detailed records.

 

[Texan]

Hell, M-COOL is already costing me plenty. I've got a lot of other sht I need to be doing. :lol2:

 

[PPRM]

Some thoughts....From a guy that does sell his own...

I like Carey's "Just do it yourself if you want it done right" attitude. I hear guys raving over how they are "Marketing" thier cattle cause they get a $3-8/ cwt premium on calves that grade CAB...That is 3-5 Dollars on the hanging wieght BTW.......So, lets call it $35 a head or so.....

I am not really knocking this as it does add up. My point is the size of a premium if you let someone else do your work. The Premium I get is about $300/head after figuring all butchering costs.....That is the premium when I do the work.

So, I see parallels between this and any program where the government or anyone else does the work for you. Sure, we might get a little extra if consumers feel good about thier choices, but not near what we can get if we do it ourselves and do it right.

My second point is that people can tell the difference between my beef and the commodity beef sold at the grocers. Folks, This year especially, I am getting nervous. See, yeah, Walmart Beef is Crap,......It used to be that Safeway's beef was very consistently very good. I could refer people to it. THis year especially, I have heard person after person tell me tat the meat hey got at Safeway is junk.....Costco is abut the only large chain inmour area selling consistently good meat.

Why would this worry a guy selling his own? There are two reasons. I have to raise more calves han what I can sell. That beef is marketed through these grocers and I want it to get me a good price there as well.

The second reason is strong grocery prices do support mine. I can generally get more, but the difference can't be too far out of whack and be sustainable..

A final comment on private programs going broke. THere are several successfull ones here in Oregon that involve many producers that have larger ranches. THE ONES GOING BROKE ARE NOT GOING BROKE BECAUSE OF CHEAP IMPORT MEAT!.......

Ruminate on that. They are going broke because the consumer tries the meat and can't tell the difference between it and the poor quality stuff at the grocers. That may be marketing done poorly on thie part. It may be inferior cattle, inferior feeding, or inferior processing. Everything needs done right.....

Slapping a flag on the package is not a cure all. It does not seperate your beef from the saleyard scrub cattle that enters the grocery chain... Legitimate Country of Origin is not a bad thing, but depending on it alone will get you the same as depending on someone else for any other premium,

I have seen Painted Hills T-Bone Steaks way outsell the store brand at $4.00 a pound more....They are an example of a good branded beef program. I am not part of it, just tipping my hat to someone else doing it right. I mentin them as they are a larger more recognizable example than I,

PPRM

 

[Sandhusker]

Hell, M-COOL is already costing me plenty. I've got a lot of other sht I need to be doing. :lol2:

:lol: :lol: I hear ya, but that's your best answer? Think about it all day and get back to me. The AMI and NCBA are fear mongering trying to scare you with the message of extra costs and extra work. People need to sit down and ask themselves two questions; What extras would really be needed to make this work and when that is answered, why is the AMI and NCBA BSing me? Maybe add a third question; Do I like being BSed and taken for a fool?

 

[katrina]

Soap, I agree I get really upset when the same weight cattle as mine, only poorer quality brings the same money as mine..... You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what's happening.
They won't ride on your coattails cuz they don't grade... High quality meat brings more money (your cattle) because they are made into steaks and roast........ Poor quality makes hamberger..... Packers are buying poor quality cattle and selling them as steaks instead of hamberger like they should be. One bad exsperiance from the consumer is going to make the stores sell higher quality meat because they won't be able to pass the junk on to the consumer... Having a born and raised stamp of some kind makes everyone accountable.... We dont have a thing to hide...... And the H diamond brand says the buck stops here.......