Red Robin
Well-known member
If you had a load of chickens in S. Arkansas 50 years ago where would you sell them?Draggin "N" said:
testimony of a V.I. grower
- Thread starter Sandhusker
- Start date
Mike
Well-known member
Red Robin said:
You still didn't answer his question. Face it, somewhere, someone was already in the chicken business before it became owned by the conglomerates. Did the industrialization of the chicken business help all those guys? Fraid not. They are all out of business now.
Just because in your little world, some poor people now have a job does not mean that others weren't forced out in the meantime.
Just how in the hell do you think V.I. in the cattle business is gonna help anyone except the packers? :roll: :???:
Red Robin
Well-known member
:lol: You can roll your eyes if you like Mike. I know some millionairs around here that were helped quite a lot by V.I.Mike said:
I've listed several benifits of VI. You just havn't been paying attention. Do you think that tyson has improved the feed efficiency of chicken for example? How about breast meat yield? How about consistancy? There are others but you don't really want to hear them. You guys are starting to sound like the U.A.W instead of cattlemen.
Mike
Well-known member
Red Robin said:
Yeah, John Tyson is one of those m/billionaires too.
For every "chicken" millionaire you can show me, I'd bet I could show you ten who lost the farm, literally. Lost it all.
There is nothing that V.I. can do for the cattle business that they can't do for themselves. Nothing.
I have a friend who was at the store this morning who has 4 ($300,000.00) chickenhouses. He ran out of feed yesterday and won't be getting any until Monday. Bet his ADG will be hit pretty hard. By the way, he said he picked up dead chickens from 5:00 A.M. until 9:30 this morning.
He also said last year he accelerated his payment schedule so that his houses would be paid off early due to profit he made 2 years ago. Well, LP gas prices have taken all his profit this year and last and had to go borrow money to make his chicken house note payments. :roll: A loan to pay off a loan............................
He's the top grower in this area. Has been for several years. Has the award certs to verify it.
You don't see the whole picture. There is no way you can.
Kato
Well-known member
Makes our supply management system for chickens look not quite so bad eh?
In a way it's VI also, but the power is at the bottom, not the top.
I've never heard of a chicken producer going broke. :!: :!:
Even though there is a marketing board in the middle, the power has been kept out of the corporations hands.
http://www.chicken.mb.ca/aboutus.html
In a way it's VI also, but the power is at the bottom, not the top.
I've never heard of a chicken producer going broke. :!: :!:
Even though there is a marketing board in the middle, the power has been kept out of the corporations hands.
http://www.chicken.mb.ca/aboutus.html
Sandhusker
Well-known member
Red Robin said:
You're right, it isn't the answer I was looking for because you didn't answer the question! I think you're giving V.I. a lot of credit that it doesn't deserve. So you have a chicken industry in NW Ark.that you didn't have before; are you telling me that the same could not of happened without V.I.?
Sandhusker
Well-known member
Robin, "I've listed several benifits of VI. You just havn't been paying attention."
Any benefit of V.I. that I've seen you list is a benefit that producers woudn't profit from. I've also seen you accredit benefits to V.I. that had nothing to do with V.I. and could have been acheived in a cash market.
Come on, Robin, these big outfits take advantage of producers every dang opportunity they get - they even invent new ways to take money out of our pockets - an example uncovered just this week is telling producers to get the bonus they deserve for their quality cattle via the grid - and then actually paying them less! From a producers standpoint, V.I. increases risk, limits opportunities, puts a cap on gains, and transfers control to these same entities with rap sheets that will stretch across your state! I'm just incredulous that you would even consider such a deal, let alone ask for it! If you want to give everything away, at least give it to charity.
Any benefit of V.I. that I've seen you list is a benefit that producers woudn't profit from. I've also seen you accredit benefits to V.I. that had nothing to do with V.I. and could have been acheived in a cash market.
Come on, Robin, these big outfits take advantage of producers every dang opportunity they get - they even invent new ways to take money out of our pockets - an example uncovered just this week is telling producers to get the bonus they deserve for their quality cattle via the grid - and then actually paying them less! From a producers standpoint, V.I. increases risk, limits opportunities, puts a cap on gains, and transfers control to these same entities with rap sheets that will stretch across your state! I'm just incredulous that you would even consider such a deal, let alone ask for it! If you want to give everything away, at least give it to charity.
PORKER
Well-known member
I have a friend who was at the store this morning who has 4 ($300,000.00) chickenhouses. He ran out of feed yesterday and won't be getting any until Monday. Bet his ADG will be hit pretty hard.
I have heard that melamine and or caynaruic acid was in some of the feed componets and the feed companies are short of complete feeds as the feds are watching and testing any feed for every type of livestock and poultry.
I have heard that melamine and or caynaruic acid was in some of the feed componets and the feed companies are short of complete feeds as the feds are watching and testing any feed for every type of livestock and poultry.
Draggin "N"
Active member
North Arkansas has benifited greatly by Tyson...it did make jobs up there, and else where around the state. I am in North Arkansas alot, and know some Tyson employees.
Red Robin, do you know how many Cuban Refugees, and how many Viet Nam Refugees, got jobs there? Do you know how many millions were made on the backs of the poor folks up there when it all started? Yes , they have a job, and Yes, that is a good thing, but there are few really great jobs there...mostly very low paying jobs.
How can you hold up for huge business that will make a surf out of you! Look at the people that risk all they ever had (and many lost it) at the whim of a house inspector, that just does not like you as an individual? No recourse but to take what they dish out.
You talk of the huge pasture improvements? HOw much rocket science was involved in spreading chicken litter over a burned out old cotton patch, from years ago, to make a pasture out of it? Would the grass be any shorter if the Chicken Growers had some imput and control over the trap they have been placed in?
And just for the record 50 years ago, folks could still process their own chickens and did! Some were sold in local markets, and Grocery stores, FRESH! And there was nothing stopping you from processing them and selling them, if you wanted too. That was before the big companys got the laws passed that are designed to keep small business out of the market!
So if you think that bowing down to the Poultry Giant and worshiping is a good idea , go ahead! But it it either being a surf, or slave to the Company, or they will just go to Mexico, I say lets let em go, and let the Chicken Growers Develope their own USA market, and let Tyson sell his chickens to the 3 dollar a day Mexicans that are building the cars and making the Burlington Rugs there now....that used to be made HERE!
Tyson has done some good things in North Arkansas YES. But big Packers are systematically killing the small ones. Wal-mart has done great things in North Arkansasa also, but they have put out more independent merchants than the great Depression did! J B Hunt has done great things for North Arkansas also, but at the expense of the small owner/operators all over this country. Big Business tends to make lots of money, mostly at the top. Mostly for the few. Yes there are drivers all over the country with JB Hunt jobs. There are thousands of Wal-Mart clerks everywhere, and there are hundereds of Chicken House owners in this country that are financing the Tyson Super Business, and they are made slaves for it! When the big packers get their way, the beef business will go the same way. IT is already. And when it does will you tell me how wonderful it is to have those businesses, and how many jobs they made. Is that why they are so intent on keeping the Illegals here now? Is that why with every raid by the Border Patrol, Tyson is stalled out, and the big Packing houses have to skip a few days work? Because they are so good for American Citizens?
There is some good in all the above, but most of the good is for only a few, and the harm is done to the many!
Stay tuned, you will see the beef industry go down that same path if the Public buys into the VI thinking.
Write that down!
Ross
Red Robin, do you know how many Cuban Refugees, and how many Viet Nam Refugees, got jobs there? Do you know how many millions were made on the backs of the poor folks up there when it all started? Yes , they have a job, and Yes, that is a good thing, but there are few really great jobs there...mostly very low paying jobs.
How can you hold up for huge business that will make a surf out of you! Look at the people that risk all they ever had (and many lost it) at the whim of a house inspector, that just does not like you as an individual? No recourse but to take what they dish out.
You talk of the huge pasture improvements? HOw much rocket science was involved in spreading chicken litter over a burned out old cotton patch, from years ago, to make a pasture out of it? Would the grass be any shorter if the Chicken Growers had some imput and control over the trap they have been placed in?
And just for the record 50 years ago, folks could still process their own chickens and did! Some were sold in local markets, and Grocery stores, FRESH! And there was nothing stopping you from processing them and selling them, if you wanted too. That was before the big companys got the laws passed that are designed to keep small business out of the market!
So if you think that bowing down to the Poultry Giant and worshiping is a good idea , go ahead! But it it either being a surf, or slave to the Company, or they will just go to Mexico, I say lets let em go, and let the Chicken Growers Develope their own USA market, and let Tyson sell his chickens to the 3 dollar a day Mexicans that are building the cars and making the Burlington Rugs there now....that used to be made HERE!
Tyson has done some good things in North Arkansas YES. But big Packers are systematically killing the small ones. Wal-mart has done great things in North Arkansasa also, but they have put out more independent merchants than the great Depression did! J B Hunt has done great things for North Arkansas also, but at the expense of the small owner/operators all over this country. Big Business tends to make lots of money, mostly at the top. Mostly for the few. Yes there are drivers all over the country with JB Hunt jobs. There are thousands of Wal-Mart clerks everywhere, and there are hundereds of Chicken House owners in this country that are financing the Tyson Super Business, and they are made slaves for it! When the big packers get their way, the beef business will go the same way. IT is already. And when it does will you tell me how wonderful it is to have those businesses, and how many jobs they made. Is that why they are so intent on keeping the Illegals here now? Is that why with every raid by the Border Patrol, Tyson is stalled out, and the big Packing houses have to skip a few days work? Because they are so good for American Citizens?
There is some good in all the above, but most of the good is for only a few, and the harm is done to the many!
Stay tuned, you will see the beef industry go down that same path if the Public buys into the VI thinking.
Write that down!
Ross
You all must be forgetting that Arkansas is a right to work state and grovels at the bottom with Mississippi in salaries paid out. Google how the states stack up paywise and those 2 states are always at the bottom.
So its no wonder that most of them probably think $30,000 year (when probably they average $15,000) think thats a good wage. (i.e. Tyson, etc.. are wonderful for giving them jobs and should be defended even tho its been stated over and over they don't treat chicken farmers fairly or right).
So its no wonder that most of them probably think $30,000 year (when probably they average $15,000) think thats a good wage. (i.e. Tyson, etc.. are wonderful for giving them jobs and should be defended even tho its been stated over and over they don't treat chicken farmers fairly or right).
Red Robin
Well-known member
$15,000 sounds like big money to me. We can't all be rich like you boot heel folks.MoGal said:
Red Robin
Well-known member
:lol2: Rereading this thread, if some of you fellas get any more worked up, you'll have sweat rings in your collars your wife won't be able to get out even with the ancient chinese secret.
Sandhusker
Well-known member
Red Robin said:
That's because talking to you about V.I. has parallels to trying to talk a jumper off of a bridge! :lol: Don't do it, man! You have so much to live for!
Mike
Well-known member
Because I am astounded that someone would actually be a proponent of "Top Down" VI for the cattle business and might court the idea that it would benfit someone besides the packers.Red Robin said:
VI is just another form of market power. The question is, do you trust those with that market power now, and can you trust them in the future. If you can't, you will just get a good looking deal now and get screwed later.
Electrical and other companies that are "natural" monopolies due to the infrastructure are very regulated as to their profit making and market abuses through the use of its market power. Often they are made into public utilities. Tyson has, with the help of the federal government's actions and inactions, has made use of its market power to the detriment of all involved but themselves. They have a few showcases here and there to keep up the ponzi scheme and draw in others to keep it up, but it is one big scam for their control and benefit only.
"Economists" have helped set them up.
Electrical and other companies that are "natural" monopolies due to the infrastructure are very regulated as to their profit making and market abuses through the use of its market power. Often they are made into public utilities. Tyson has, with the help of the federal government's actions and inactions, has made use of its market power to the detriment of all involved but themselves. They have a few showcases here and there to keep up the ponzi scheme and draw in others to keep it up, but it is one big scam for their control and benefit only.
"Economists" have helped set them up.
Red Robin
Well-known member
I'm for VI. I like the idea of a bottom up the best but it'll never happen. That leaves the top down version. I like that better than no beef industry in the U.S. which is the likely alternative without VI.Mike said:
Ben Roberts
Well-known member
Red Robin said:
Red Robin, there has been a broiler industry in Nortwest Arkansas for the past fifty years that I know of, then it was Swift, Cargill and Stamper all of these companies furnished, chicks, feed and contracted to pay you on a gain bases. I can't dispute what you say about the economy in Northwest Arkansas, you live there, I don't. I believe you give the large poultry processing industry too much credit for that economy though, I used to buy kill cows and bulls for a company in Rogers, Arkansas. I went to visit the plant one time and went to the fire department to find the address of the owner, he had built a new house about six monthe before, and the fire department didn't know where the street was that he lived on. The firemen told me that they were finishing around two hundred homes a month in Rogers and they couldn't keep up with all the new streets and addresses. The growth in Northwest Arkansas' economy at that time, was created by the lakes, golf courses and the milder winter weather in your area that attracted retirees.
Best Regards
Ben Roberts
RR, the Oklahoma Attorney General has sued the State of Arkansas because of water quality issues. Those water quality issues are specifically related to Tyson chicken shite being spread on the land with excess nutrients flowing into the streams and lakes directly affecting the quality of the retirees that Ben spoke of.
I agree, if we are not careful in this country, we will move all of our industries out of this country to be made by people with lower paying jobs from the rest of the world with less responsible environmental policies. Because of the above situation, the environmentalist movement may force that sooner rather than later. After all, what do you think those retirees want more, clean lakes and streams to live around or cheap chicken?
When Tyson spreads its costs on everyone else in society, and people start to notice, what do you think will happen to your "green grass"?
You need not answer that question because it is already being answered. I answered it in my first sentence.
I agree, if we are not careful in this country, we will move all of our industries out of this country to be made by people with lower paying jobs from the rest of the world with less responsible environmental policies. Because of the above situation, the environmentalist movement may force that sooner rather than later. After all, what do you think those retirees want more, clean lakes and streams to live around or cheap chicken?
When Tyson spreads its costs on everyone else in society, and people start to notice, what do you think will happen to your "green grass"?
You need not answer that question because it is already being answered. I answered it in my first sentence.
Sandhusker
Well-known member
Red Robin said:
Why limit your choices to two losers? It doesn't have to be either if we take charge now.