Texas A&M Study Cow Size

[Dylan Biggs]

Interesting article in the latest Western Producer or as NR calls it the "Western Seducer". The research would suggest that cow size isn't nearly as important a consideration as reproductive efficiency and management. The middle of the road on frame size is probably still the best place to be.

 

[Shortgrass]

I guess this is where my opinions might start an argument, but I have long held that cow size is highly overated. I have run big white cows for years, and always had some baldies mixed in. They did a great job, and certainly I have a place for them. What I have observed is that given the same feed and conditions, a 1100 Lb BWF performs no better than a 1400 lb Char. The thing is the smaller cattle were never first to calve, and often the baldies were on average later than the big cows. If they are more efficient, why would they not be first to calve each year? Feed efficiency is the issue, as this article points out. I bit into the "moderate" frame deal, and was dissappointed in the results. Weaning weight dropped with cow size, but feed still dissappeared at the same rate. Some cattle, like the Charolais, are supposed to be big cattle. I started picking heifers like I used to.........the big pretty, easy keeprs. They raise big pretty calves. I like big, smooth, meaty bulls. I am not a fan of the camel types. I know a lot of mighty good cattlemen disagree with me, and they are still mighty good cattlemen in my book, we just disagree on this issue. I like to have my Charolais weighing 1400 when the calf comes off. Edit: I would prefer a 1250 baldie to the 1100 pounder also! And thats just the way I see it.

 

[PATB]

When I thing of a big cow that means she is topping 1600 lbs to over a ton and frame score 6 plus. I personnally like a cow in the 1200 to 1500 lb range. They handle my management style better.

 

[efb]

I still think cow size should be a function of environment. Here in NE TX we can probably get away with 1500 - 1600 lb cows, but I wonder if the guys in New Mexico and AZ want 1600 lb. cows. I know I have reduced my cow size down from 16 to 1400 over the past few years. But I have also trimmed about 50 - 60 lbs off my weaning wt. also.

 

[RobertMac]

http://www.farmprogress.com/story.aspx/matching/nutrition/to/cow/type/14/35237

 

[katrina]

Barry Dunn is a :gag:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

When I thing of a big cow that means she is topping 1600 lbs to over a ton and frame score 6 plus. I personnally like a cow in the 1200 to 1500 lb range. They handle my management style better.

It would be nice to know if "cow size" in the article is referring more to frame or weight. I have had some frame 4 cows in good condition that weigh 1400 lbs and some frame 6 cows can weigh 1300 lbs in good condition.

 

[lazy ace]

When I thing of a big cow that means she is topping 1600 lbs to over a ton and frame score 6 plus. I personnally like a cow in the 1200 to 1500 lb range. They handle my management style better.

It would be nice to know if "cow size" in the article is referring more to frame or weight. I have had some frame 4 cows in good condition that weigh 1400 lbs and some frame 6 cows can weigh 1300 lbs in good condition.

exactly cows are three dimensional, It is funny I pregged some cows that couldn't hardly fit in the chute (due to width and lenth) and the guy said his cows were too big and the next guy had the same chute and had plenty of room but the height of the cows were the same and he was happy with his cow size.

What is your take on RFI data and plugging it into commercial ranching?

have a good one

lazy ace

 

[cowhunter]

Say u have some cattle averagein 1200. And your neighbor's cattle average 1600. Witch are goin to caust more to feed? Can the man with the smaller cattle run more per acer? Will the calfs off the bigger cows really weight at weanin that much more? If u can run more smaller cows per acer would not the biger calf crop justify a smaller weanin weight? Let's do the math. Little cow man can run 20 on 20 acers. 20 calfs at 300lbs. Big cow man can only run 15 on 20 acers 15 calfs at 350lbs. Little cow man; 6000lbs. Big cow man;5250lbs. When I ran angus bulls on scrub cattle. I got black polled calfs 80 percent of the time. I had to hold them a little longer to get my sellin weight but they sold for just as much as the calfs comein of the comercial cattle. I know I don't know near as much about beef cattle as most that post on here and don't won't to.if I was as smart as yall, I'd never get to fish, hunt, frog gig or 2 step with my wife now and then. But I aint never been in the red on no cattle and never went to the bank with my hat in my hand. Now please don't take no afence or get mad. I like all u folks and sure injoy your words of wisdom. But please answer my post. Is biger better?

 

[Dylan Biggs]

When I thing of a big cow that means she is topping 1600 lbs to over a ton and frame score 6 plus. I personnally like a cow in the 1200 to 1500 lb range. They handle my management style better.

It would be nice to know if "cow size" in the article is referring more to frame or weight. I have had some frame 4 cows in good condition that weigh 1400 lbs and some frame 6 cows can weigh 1300 lbs in good condition.

exactly cows are three dimensional, It is funny I pregged some cows that couldn't hardly fit in the chute (due to width and lenth) and the guy said his cows were too big and the next guy had the same chute and had plenty of room but the height of the cows were the same and he was happy with his cow size.

What is your take on RFI data and plugging it into commercial ranching?

have a good one

lazy ace

Good point, I like that description"cows are three dimesional" and seldom do cow size discussions that I come across take that into account. As far as I can figure if you don't cosider it from a 3 dimensional stand point and include BCS in the discussion then it's basically a pointless discussion.

In the pre-game analysis leading up to today's game I herd a term that describes how I feel sometimes looking at AI sire directories with the glut of data now printed on each bull, "anaysis paralysis". That being said from the understanding I have of RFI so far I think it may be some of the more useful, practical real time data collected. Not many facilities are set up with the necessary technology to measure it. If you happen to be close enough to a test facility that is collecting RFI data I would take the time to go look at the cattle and if you find some good sound cattle that have good RFI data I think there could be some real benefit.

I will do my best and you have a good one to.

Dylan

 

[Trinity man]

I know down here in the south your bigger cattle have hard time with environmental conditions than in the North Country. Our grasses down here are harder to get a cow to 1500-1600 lbs. We just have too much water in our grasses to get the cattle to these weights. There are some, but not very many that get over 1400 lbs. This is why cattle don't grade as high as the cattle in the north. Frame size is done by when the feeder cattle grade choice. Small frame cattle will grade choice under 1100 lbs, medium frame is graded choice 110-1250 lbs, and large frame grades choice over 1250 lbs. Most of the cattle I have reported from the East Texas area weight 1000-1300 lbs. and deep East Texas 700-1100 lbs.

Here is a link that night help on the grading standards. The USDA moved it from where it was and I can't find it. So a sale barn I report has it on their web-site.

http://easttexaslivestock.com/linked/feeders.pdf

 

[Grassfarmer]

Say u have some cattle averagein 1200. And your neighbor's cattle average 1600. Witch are goin to caust more to feed? Can the man with the smaller cattle run more per acer? Will the calfs off the bigger cows really weight at weanin that much more? If u can run more smaller cows per acer would not the biger calf crop justify a smaller weanin weight? Let's do the math. Little cow man can run 20 on 20 acers. 20 calfs at 300lbs. Big cow man can only run 15 on 20 acers 15 calfs at 350lbs. Little cow man; 6000lbs. Big cow man;5250lbs. When I ran angus bulls on scrub cattle. I got black polled calfs 80 percent of the time. I had to hold them a little longer to get my sellin weight but they sold for just as much as the calfs comein of the comercial cattle. I know I don't know near as much about beef cattle as most that post on here and don't won't to.if I was as smart as yall, I'd never get to fish, hunt, frog gig or 2 step with my wife now and then. But I aint never been in the red on no cattle and never went to the bank with my hat in my hand. Now please don't take no afence or get mad. I like all u folks and sure injoy your words of wisdom. But please answer my post. Is biger better?

Hey cowhunter you aren't Kit Pharo posting under an alias are you :wink: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Say u have some cattle averagein 1200. And your neighbor's cattle average 1600. Witch are goin to caust more to feed? Can the man with the smaller cattle run more per acer? Will the calfs off the bigger cows really weight at weanin that much more? If u can run more smaller cows per acer would not the biger calf crop justify a smaller weanin weight? Let's do the math. Little cow man can run 20 on 20 acers. 20 calfs at 300lbs. Big cow man can only run 15 on 20 acers 15 calfs at 350lbs. Little cow man; 6000lbs. Big cow man;5250lbs. When I ran angus bulls on scrub cattle. I got black polled calfs 80 percent of the time. I had to hold them a little longer to get my sellin weight but they sold for just as much as the calfs comein of the comercial cattle. I know I don't know near as much about beef cattle as most that post on here and don't won't to.if I was as smart as yall, I'd never get to fish, hunt, frog gig or 2 step with my wife now and then. But I aint never been in the red on no cattle and never went to the bank with my hat in my hand. Now please don't take no afence or get mad. I like all u folks and sure injoy your words of wisdom. But please answer my post. Is biger better?

Cowhunter
Unfortunately I wasn't able to post the entire article but after reading the whole article what I did post of it seened to summarize it quite well. From what I could gather from this article the research would indicate that size of cow, big or small is not of that much importance. What is important is the management of whatever cow size it is you happen to have. The other thing identified as important was the degree to which a herd is adapted to your environment so they can maintain reproductive efficiency with in it. The cattle need to be adapted. So cow size seems to be left to ones prefernce as long as they are well adapted and the business is well managed. They seem to be saying that cow size won't compensate for poor business management. Sounds to me like you are doing a good job of managing posting no red ink and not having a banker.

Take Care

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Say u have some cattle averagein 1200. And your neighbor's cattle average 1600. Witch are goin to caust more to feed? Can the man with the smaller cattle run more per acer? Will the calfs off the bigger cows really weight at weanin that much more? If u can run more smaller cows per acer would not the biger calf crop justify a smaller weanin weight? Let's do the math. Little cow man can run 20 on 20 acers. 20 calfs at 300lbs. Big cow man can only run 15 on 20 acers 15 calfs at 350lbs. Little cow man; 6000lbs. Big cow man;5250lbs. When I ran angus bulls on scrub cattle. I got black polled calfs 80 percent of the time. I had to hold them a little longer to get my sellin weight but they sold for just as much as the calfs comein of the comercial cattle. I know I don't know near as much about beef cattle as most that post on here and don't won't to.if I was as smart as yall, I'd never get to fish, hunt, frog gig or 2 step with my wife now and then. But I aint never been in the red on no cattle and never went to the bank with my hat in my hand. Now please don't take no afence or get mad. I like all u folks and sure injoy your words of wisdom. But please answer my post. Is biger better?

Hey cowhunter you aren't Kit Pharo posting under an alias are you :wink: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

That would be funny!

 

[cowhunter]

No, I aint him. Is he a good lookin feller like me that the whores can't leave alone? I'm just a old sick dumn ash cracker that figers if it aint broke, don't fix it. My fences are all patched with old split lightered and cedar post goin back 40 years, presure treated as well as them sorry steel ones. Still some of that old thick good bard wire as well as galcho and that new stuf that don't stretch good. Did yall know a cow leg bone makes a good twister for corner post brace wire? My hiway fence is top notch.I've got two percimin trees for gate post, now that's a work of art Only a few drunks have run threw it. Them steel post sure don't make for eazy patchin. Never again. And as far as borrowin money, I borry it from my self. I'm easy to get along with and never short my self narry a dime. As long as my deals work we get along fine. Well, its gettin past my bed time. I got to get up early in the mornin. 9:00. Let me put the tv on willys place. Maybe I won't dream about them 1 ton cows eatin all my fresh sprouted washy grass comein on. Good night all and well see yall in the mornin

 

[Grassfarmer]

That being said from the understanding I have of RFI so far I think it may be some of the more useful, practical real time data collected. Not many facilities are set up with the necessary technology to measure it. If you happen to be close enough to a test facility that is collecting RFI data I would take the time to go look at the cattle and if you find some good sound cattle that have good RFI data I think there could be some real benefit.

I will do my best and you have a good one to.

Dylan

The concern I've always had with RFI testing is that it only tests cattle eating out of a trough in feedlot type conditions. I guess it needn't be a high % grain ration they are on - it could be a forage only diet just as well. That might get you closer to finding forage efficient cattle but even that is a far stretch from cows grazing. I'm not convinced we can assume there will be a direct correlation between feed efficiency on grain based diets consumed in a feedlot and the efficiency of grazing animals harvesting forage. Obviously there is no easy way to test grazing cows for RFI but that would be the thing that would bring most benefit to cow/calf producers. I would think pretty much anything can learn to eat from a trough but grazing is a lot more complex and i'm sure there are real differences between different types of cows, and individual cows efficiency of grazing, selection of diet and efficiency of utilisation.
That was why I indicated in another post my interest in possibly DNA testing for RFI - if it was able to somehow reflect absolute feed efficiency, regardless of feed type and source it might be a step forward.

 

[RobertMac]

The other thing identified as important was the degree to which a herd is adapted to your environment so they can maintain reproductive efficiency with in it. The cattle need to be adapted.

Adapted to your environment is half the story...the other half is what is included in "environment". All management practices are "in your environment"!

If you want to test for grazing RFI, feed your herd forage only and select for functional efficiency.

Note: Feeding forage only doesn't mean trying to starve a profit out of your cattle...can be fat on forage only.

 

[Lonecowboy]

The other thing identified as important was the degree to which a herd is adapted to your environment so they can maintain reproductive efficiency with in it. The cattle need to be adapted.

Adapted to your environment is half the story...the other half is what is included in "environment". All management practices are "in your environment"!

If you want to test for grazing RFI, feed your herd forage only and select for functional efficiency.

Note: Feeding forage only doesn't mean trying to starve a profit out of your cattle...can be fat on forage only.

As I see it, you either alter your cattle to fit your enviroment,(usually cheaper, less inputs)
or alter the enviroment to fit your cattle.(usually more expensive, more inputs)
finding the balance that pencils out the best is the challenge.

What I don't see anyone talking about is culling-
get rid of the ones that don't work!
If you make your cattle work for you and cull the poor/non performers soon you will have a herd that fits your enviroment.

 

[Big Swede]

That sounds so simple it might just work! :wink: Good post.

 

[RobertMac]

The other thing identified as important was the degree to which a herd is adapted to your environment so they can maintain reproductive efficiency with in it. The cattle need to be adapted.

Adapted to your environment is half the story...the other half is what is included in "environment". All management practices are "in your environment"!

If you want to test for grazing RFI, feed your herd forage only and select for functional efficiency.

Note: Feeding forage only doesn't mean trying to starve a profit out of your cattle...can be fat on forage only.

As I see it, you either alter your cattle to fit your enviroment,(usually cheaper, less inputs)
or alter the enviroment to fit your cattle.(usually more expensive, more inputs)
finding the balance that pencils out the best is the challenge.

I don't see it as "alter your cattle", but, as you say below, cull what doesn't fit your environment. The balance is to efficiently utilize the natural resources on your land with the least input $$$. In my mind, selection is selecting what to cull.

What I don't see anyone talking about is culling-
get rid of the ones that don't work!
If you make your cattle work for you and cull the poor/non performers soon you will have a herd that fits your enviroment.