The End Product MATTERS to Them!

[arcadianhaven]

We have all seen the millions of ads and articles floating around the web space for buying local, shopping the neighborhood framers market, and supporting local businesses. I guess this post would follow in that fashion, but with maybe more of a justification rather than sales pitch.
I recently did a post that shows all the bad stuff that gets added to our food in order to "process" it etc for the masses. Most of those "necessary" additives could be done away with, if the food we purchase was grown nearby. http://www.arcadianhaven.com/images/foodissues.pdf.
I visited some friends down in Yuma this past year, the area is just crawling with cattle and feed lots etc. I made the comment that "wow you must all get some good beef prices!" Astoundingly, the reply was no. All that cattle is shipped to Houston Texas to be processed etc. AMAZING! You have Phoenix 3 hours to the north that sports a 4.5 million population, Tucson to the East, and then Yuma.
How much cost is added just transporting those 1000+ pound behemoths 1300 miles, or 19 hours! WOW the fuels cost must add a fortune. Then just think, the meat is processed, and at some point, a good portion of it is then shipped back to be sold at the local market. So that cow grown 3 hours away, travels round trip 2600 miles, or 38 hours on a semi, to get to the supermarket in Phoenix!
We then wonder why all these additives are needed. If you, as a consumer, bought your meat from the local growers (which I will show you is really not more expensive) you could increase local demand, support your neighbors, and increase your health by not having all those "necessary additives".
With Diesel fuel running a cost, right now, at 3.67 a gallon, and let's assume that truck is pulling 15 miles per gallon. Then we take the 26 head of cattle in that trailer (http://www.animalagriculture.org/Education/Pamphlets/Livestock%20Trucking%20Guide.pdf) and we do some simple math…..
Cost of fuel round trip, $929.00
Cost of drivers wages $600.00
Cost burden added to each head of cow $58.00 Divided by the net meat weight after processing we just added $0.12 per pound to the cost of that beef
Now transporting by rail could save some money, but considering each rail car can transport only 16 steers (http://www.nebraskahistory.org/publish/publicat/timeline/livestock_transportation.htm), I think the costs could average the same.
Now there are some costs not included here such as truck lease and maintenance, a decent percentage of the animals die during transit, the cost of adding all those "necessary additives", and let's not forget government subsidies!

"Apart from the externalized environmental costs, high-intensity feeding operations are subsidized indirectly by the federal government. This "indirect subsidy" goes primarily to corn growers — which reduces the market prices of this valuable cattle feed. Understandably, as the USDA's 2010 overview of the cattle industry illustrates, the prices of beef follow the fluctuations in corn prices closely, so if corn is subsidized and is sold short of its true cost, corn-fed beef will also be sold more cheaply. Ironically, cattle are being fed other food-industry waste because corn is still the expensive route for fattening up beef cattle quickly. So without this indirect economic boost from the government, it is arguable that much of the cattle industry would be forced to incorporate the real costs of feed and potentially the environmental costs as well, at which point the cost to produce beef under the current system would be prohibitive."http://sustainabilityandlaw.com/2011/03/30/the-beef-on-sustainability-in-the-cattle-industry-by-marie-burcham/ Translation…Our taxes are subsidizing the large producers, thus driving their costs down, which means they have the "illusion" of being cheaper. Truth is you are paying the difference, just not at the grocer, but rather in your taxes.
I have only been discussing Meat here, but these same things happen with milk, produce, etc.
I guess my whole point here is that by us purchasing from the industrial AG businesses via our chain grocer, we are undermining our health, the environment, and the local economy. If you made it a point every time you went to your grocer, to buy 1 item from the organic produce section, or buy 1 meat product from a local farm to your area, or got some cheese or milk or eggs from a local "small" farmer, imagine the impact you could make.
Don't support the large "industrial producers" support your neighbors, your hometown, and your state. These are the folks looking out for your well being. WHY? because they take pride in what they do, the end product MATTERS to them!

http://www.arcadianhaven.com/blog.html

 

[flyingS]

If you could please find me a truck that makes 15 miles to the gallon, I would be real interested. I think 5 to 6 would be the high end of realistic.

 

[Bullhauler]

If you could please find me a truck that makes 15 miles to the gallon, I would be real interested. I think 5 to 6 would be the high end of realistic.

Well they are only hauling 26 fats so that number is off too.

 

[mrj]

arcadianhaven, do you realize your audience here has quite a few people who raise cattle for a living?

Even I, not necessarily the most knowledgeable person re. cattle production in the southwest can see a few holes in your informationeven with my late evening state of near exhaustion.

One is the fact that beef is tested and NO residues are allowed in the meat sold to consumers.

Another, and beefhauler can probably correct this if I'm wrong, but I believe cattle going long distances usually are in large trailers hauling 50,000 pounds of cattle. With your equation of 1,ooo pound animals, that would be 50 head, rather than 26.

I'm not sure of rules regarding time spent on a truck, but know that for long hauls they must be un-loaded periodically and rested with feed and water for at least a few hours.

It seems illogical that cattle fattened in a feedlot would be hauled very long distances.

I do know that the majority of 'commercial' cattle are raised on pastures, many of them native grasses and forbs, for about 1o to 14 months, then in feedlots for a few months, usually less than six months unless for the Japanese markets wanting heavier, fatter carcasses.

mrj

 

[jodywy]

arcadianhaven, do you realize your audience here has quite a few people who raise cattle for a living?

Even I, not necessarily the most knowledgeable person re. cattle production in the southwest can see a few holes in your informationeven with my late evening state of near exhaustion.

One is the fact that beef is tested and NO residues are allowed in the meat sold to consumers.

Another, and beefhauler can probably correct this if I'm wrong, but I believe cattle going long distances usually are in large trailers hauling 50,000 pounds of cattle. With your equation of 1,ooo pound animals, that would be 50 head, rather than 26.

I'm not sure of rules regarding time spent on a truck, but know that for long hauls they must be un-loaded periodically and rested with feed and water for at least a few hours.

It seems illogical that cattle fattened in a feedlot would be hauled very long distances.

I do know that the majority of 'commercial' cattle are raised on pastures, many of them native grasses and forbs, for about 1o to 14 months, then in feedlots for a few months, usually less than six months unless for the Japanese markets wanting heavier, fatter carcasses.

mrj

plus being in a state that has more then 2 cow /person one has to export cattle to another state just for consuption.

 

[MsSage]

2600 miles, or 38 hours on a semi,

I did a high of 50 mph average and its 52 hours.

Cost of drivers wages $600.00

Since most haulers get paid by mile (ok bullwagons might get per load)
on cheap end .92 per mile x 2600 = $2392

With Diesel fuel running a cost, right now, at 3.67 a gallon

Cali is the highest at $4.39 and lowest is $3.69 thats just the past month
plus fuel always ends in 9.9

let's assume that truck is pulling 15 miles per gallon

sure go ahead BUT your NOT talking big rigs....KW9 got 5 the new truck (yes its a girly truck LOL ) gets 6.5

So based on my knowledge I have shown where the facts the conclusion is based on are wrong.

Evan, Please verify your facts before you want to "teach" those who just have an average ranch.
These people have grown up and lived most of their lives, raising families, supporting their communities, and producing a environmentally friendly product.

 

[arcadianhaven]

Well thanks for all the replies. Ironically your replies only serve to prove my point more.

I did site my sources for the information I used.

As for "teaching" if you took offense that is on you, nothing in my post was done to be offensive.

At the end of the day, the point of my post, is it seems awfully foolish to ship all that cattle from Yuma to Texas, when one of the largest consumer populations in America is 3 hours north. I realize there are laws etc, bu that doesn't mean the laws make sense.

I have not seen a single post that justifies why it is not a good practice for consumers to buy from nearby ranches etc rather than across the country. Kind of the underlying theme of my article.

But thanks for the updated facts, the ones I found were hard to scrub form all the spam on the internet.

 

[jodywy]

well we to high cold and dry for much local produce, and no local fruit other then berries. Besides I like a bananna once in awhile , love Utah tomatoes and peaches so they have to come on a truck. then there not much coffee grown localy either.

 

[Soapweed]

http://www.arcadianhaven.com/

Here is your mission statement from your webpage, and it is an admirable one.

"Arcadian refers to a vision of pastoralism and harmony with nature …and Haven, a place of refuge or rest; a sanctuary.

"This is what we strive for every day at the ranch. We strive to make sure we are doing things that enhance our environment, and promote nature's way, as well as to create a place of solace and refuge from the busy goings on in the rest of the world. To this end we ask ourselves with each step, or endeavor, are we making things better or worse? Is what we are doing, or are about to do, in harmony with the world around us?"

As a fourth generation rancher from the Sandhills of Nebraska, with my grandkids being the sixth generation, this has also been our own philosophy in all this time. Our family has lived in this area since 1885. We have always tried to look at the big picture, and do our best to make the world a better place.

I admire the enthusiasm of newcomers to the agricultural scene, but sometimes idealism can interfere with realism. The United States of America has the best food supply, bar none, in the world. It is top-of-the-line in all areas, being plentiful, safe, and tasty. Other countries envy our abilities, and try to emulate our methods. Keep all of this in mind as you burst forward with your newfound zest to "change" something that already seems to work very well.

 

[arcadianhaven]

@Soapweed Thanks for the advice. I agree things are good, but they can always be improved upon. I just want to make sure our improvements focus in the core values of sustainability not just profits, there has to be a balance.
I mean no offense to all of you many generation farmers and ranchers, just sharing some of the homework i have been doing. Lots to learn transitioning from corporate America to the farm.

Thanks again!

 

[katrina]

2600 miles, or 38 hours on a semi,

I did a high of 50 mph average and its 52 hours.

Cost of drivers wages $600.00

Since most haulers get paid by mile (ok bullwagons might get per load)
on cheap end .92 per mile x 2600 = $2392

With Diesel fuel running a cost, right now, at 3.67 a gallon

Cali is the highest at $4.39 and lowest is $3.69 thats just the past month
plus fuel always ends in 9.9

let's assume that truck is pulling 15 miles per gallon

sure go ahead BUT your NOT talking big rigs....KW9 got 5 the new truck (yes its a girly truck LOL ) gets 6.5

So based on my knowledge I have shown where the facts the conclusion is based on are wrong.

Evan, Please verify your facts before you want to "teach" those who just have an average ranch.
These people have grown up and lived most of their lives, raising families, supporting their communities, and producing a environmentally friendly product.

:clap: :clap:

 

[arcadianhaven]

Katrina, thank you again for your reply. As I stated on the other forum your conclusions only make my point further, by increasing the costs. As I said there, I did site my sources.

My post was merely an article based on my research on the web to explain what I experienced down in Yuma Arizona. I still stand by my prior statement in that I have seen no justification for why folks should not be buying form their local communities when the products are available. The fact that you think the costs are higher, only further supports my conclusions, it does not invalidate them. Thanks for your insights. Again, I meant no offense, just sharing my thoughts on a personal experience.

 

[katrina]

Katrina, thank you again for your reply. As I stated on the other forum your conclusions only make my point further, by increasing the costs. As I said there, I did site my sources.

My post was merely an article based on my research on the web to explain what I experienced down in Yuma Arizona. Your research is flawed big time. I still stand by my prior statement in that I have seen no justification for why folks should not be buying form their local communities when the products are available. That's fine, but you have to have the middle man (processing plants to fullfill the needs. Do you have any idea the numbers processed in a day? The fact that you think the costs are higher, only further supports my conclusions, it does not invalidate them. I'll tell that to my trucker husband and see what he says.. Better yet why don't you come up and let him give you a real tour. Thanks for your insights. Again, I meant no offense, just sharing my thoughts on a personal experience.

:tiphat: Take my advice and listen to what we have told you..

 

[LazyWP]

What gets me is, how someone who has been in agriculture, less then a year, wants to change centuries of work. Not saying things don't need to change, just find it ironic that you have ALL the answers.

 

[gcreekrch]

What gets me is, how someone who has been in agriculture, less then a year, wants to change centuries of work. Not saying things don't need to change, just find it ironic that you have ALL the answers.

I too agree that some changes would be beneficial but starting at the bottom may not be the place. Until the multi-nationals are not interested in breaking every new plant that starts up with the "local" intentions we are kind of locked in to the "system'.

I also have a problem with those that market niche products with the theme that conventional is bad.

Nothing like short gained knowledge to take the place of years of self gained success. :wink:

 

[LazyWP]

What gets me is, how someone who has been in agriculture, less then a year, wants to change centuries of work. Not saying things don't need to change, just find it ironic that you have ALL the answers.

I too agree that some changes would be beneficial but starting at the bottom may not be the place. Until the multi-nationals are not interested in breaking every new plant that starts up with the "local" intentions we are kind of locked in to the "system'.

I also have a problem with those that market niche products with the theme that conventional is bad.

Nothing like short gained knowledge to take the place of years of self gained success. :wink:

:clap: :clap: :tiphat: :tiphat:

 

[nortexsook]

Before we get too hard on this person. At least they are trying to get educated about things. Much more than most "city folks". Not saying that I agree with his points but also we are fooling ourselves if we think IBP, Tyson, Monsanto, ect.....really have whats best for family farms at heart. There has to be a middle ground there somewhere........

 

[gcreekrch]

Before we get too hard on this person. At least they are trying to get educated about things. Much more than most "city folks". Not saying that I agree with his points but also we are fooling ourselves if we think IBP, Tyson, Monsanto, ect.....really have whats best for family farms at heart. There has to be a middle ground there somewhere........

You're right about the middle ground.

There have been plenty of "world changers" come to this "Last Frontier" from an urban background. Rather than watch and ask the folks that have been successful for years they blundered along with their own "new ideas".

Eventually they go broke and back to the city.......

 

[mrj]

arcadianhaven, I've found our posts interesting and hoped that we 'seasoned' ranchers might be able to help your 'learning curve', you being self described as new to 'farming'.

You apparently are doing lots of homework, but I feel you may be getting led a bit astray in that you seem to believe what is in very large part propaganda against any food business PERCEIVED as BIG.

There seems no end of people and activist groups who are determined to paint ALL businesses larger than a little, barely sustainable, 'mom and pop' business as ogres willing to cheat, lie, steal, and subject their customers to illness inducing substances in order to get instant, obscene profits.

My family, like that 'young whippersnapper', Soapweeds, are multi-generational, multi-member ranchers. I'm his elder by a generation, G. 3 on this ranch established in 1891 or 1892. Our three month old great granddaughter is G. 6 on the ranch.

Our 'founding grandfather' of this ranch was one of the early settlers in western SD, and encouraged many other people intending to pass on through to "stay and help us build a community", including the Homesteaders who were plowing up the native prairie which he firmly believed was NOT sustainable in our climate.

He helped many to survive here as long as they could, then paid them as much as he could afford when they asked him to buy them out so they could go somewhere that it might be possible to make a living. (He believed government was setting Homesteaders up for failure by refusing to recognizae that this arid area needed larger land bases than in areas with more favorable climates.)

My family with G. 3, 4, & 5 raising beef cattle has won a four state stewardship award for our care of the land and we pay attention to science, common sense, and 'listen to the land' in making decisions regarding both our land and cattle.

The greatest obstacle to success for us has been over-regulation by government, and un-predictable weather, especially drought and a few extreme winters. We haven't lost many cattle from adverse weather, but bad winters cause very high feed costs, as in mild winters, we do not have to feed much, if any hay or feed other than grazing native pastures and a small supplement of protein and fat (range cubes).

I include this bit of our history as ranchers to show you that we have, for generations learned from the land, and that knowledge has been passed down through the generations, as well as each generation studying the best of new science of range and cattle management. I believe ideas we might share could benefit you..........and they are free! While the saying goes that "free" anything is worth about what it costs, another saying "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" is also relative good advice.

While I've not had time to really study the sites you posted, they look interesting at first glance. I look forward to seeing what I can learn there.

I'm bothered by your quotes about 'indirect subsidies' to cattle producers. While it may sound as simple as you post, there just may be more to it than seems apparent.

First, I believe such subsidies are NOT to make farmers wealthy, but to keep food costs low as possible for consumers, and to keep farmers from going broke, in which case they would not be able to produce food for our consumers. And that is successful. Actual food costs in the USA range about 9% of disposable income for most people. That MAY have gone up a bit within the past two or three months.

While decrying feeding corn to cattle, the author also criticizes using "food industry wastes". Why? It seems sensible to feed veggie peelings, and such, even stale donuts, cake, etc. Did you know that such products are analyzed to determine their nutritive composition, then a ration is planned to assure optimum nutrients appropriate or cattle are in the end product fed to the cattle? Similar situations exist for dairy cattle and other food animals.

Then there is derogatory mention of "industrial AG businesses". Why? Do they truly believe that there is significant difference between meats grown commercially on a large enough scale to feed the 300,000,000 people in this country plus many more around the world, and that grown by the farmer down the road who has two head of cattle???

Logic tells us the larger feedlots (most of which have generous space for the animals, and manure is cleaned up daily, making claims of animals having to lie in their own feces.........just that B.S.....on a large scale, I might add!

The small farmer down the road is far less likely to be inspected by any government agency.......and is no less prone to "greed" causing him to use less than safe practices in raising animals than any 'large' farmer.

Sometimes it is too easy for us to mistrust what we do not know or understand. Someof that is involved in susicions of 'corporate agriculture, or 'factory farms', or any of the derogatory terms used for the large scale agriculture in the USA. Some use of the terms is intentionally slanted to plant fear of food grown on a larger scale, and to make ill-informed people eager and willing to pay the higher costs of hand raised food.

There are good people and bad people in ALL agricultural systems, not ONLY in 'big Ag'!

Eating 'local' food is great, for the right reasons, but fear of commercial production is not a good reason, imo. Processing is not always available, and very small processors of food animals are very difficult to make profitable. There is the problem of what to do with by-products which cannot be eaten, and are costly to dispose of. Proper inspections can be problematic. Few consumers want to eat all parts of a carcass, such as the liver, heart, etc. I hear that inspections of even farmers markets is becoming difficult because not enough income is generated to cover costs. So, what to do? There are going to be challenges needing to be solved, and growth curves sometimes are painful.


I do not intend to sound harsh toward you, but to show you that there is 'more to the story'. US Agriculture is very complex and the people in it are equally complex, with many more noble characters than often is indicated by many activist groups and 'locavores'.

I wish you the best in your adventure of learning to be a farmer. Keep your eyes, ears, and mind open and it will be an exciting experience of personal growth for you.

mrj

 

[Soapweed]

Thanks, mrj. You did very well in telling the real story.