The longest-ever recorded kill by a sniper in combat

[Ben H]

Knowing distance is a must, but wind is my main problem. Any Tips? :wink:

Wind is tricky at range, it's easy to see the wind direction where you are, but it could be totally different down range. To check direction at your location toss some light dead grass or powder in the air. A spotting scope may pick up some hints like the way the grass is bent over. Look for how much leaves are moving on trees to guage wind speed. I was told once but forgot how much movement equals what speed. Also you need to take into acount if it's a full value or half value wind. If the wind is straight towards you or away then you don't even worry about it as far as windage goes. If it's directly across your position you take it fully into account for your adjustment. If the wind is coming or going at an angle then you only use half the windage adjustment. If you really want to get into it, it's nothing more then Vectors, any physics book will go into that.

 

[Mike]

Thanks Ben. Here is an artical concerning Wind Drift with Right Hand Twist barrels. (Which are most of todays newer guns):

Vector Wind Effect for Right Hand Twist Barrels

When shooting at long range, the bullet path is influenced by several factors, among which are Gravity, Spindrift, and Wind Velocity. Spin Drift will drift the path of the bullet to the right when fired from a barrel with a right hand rifling twist.

Wind velocity and direction affect not only the left or right deflection of the bullet but also the vertical deflection as an effect of the bullet spin. Picture the following in your mind.

With no wind and the sights adjusted to compensate for the right spin drift, the bullet would impact the target at dead center When the wind is blowing from three o'clock, the right-hand-twist spinning bullet will tend to roll up on the wind, causing an increase in elevation in addition to being pushed to the left. This is reflected in the chart by the circle enclosing the number '3'.

When the wind is blowing from nine o'clock, the right-hand-twist spin will tend to roll under the wind and be deflected downward in addition to being pushed to the right. The chart shows the circle containing the number '9' at the lower right. When the wind is blowing from twelve o'clock, the bullet effectively starts out with a muzzle velocity that is decreased by the value of the headwind velocity, thus requiring more time to reach the target. Consequently, gravity causes the bullet to drop farther than if there were no headwind. The circle containing the '12' is near the bottom of the chart reflecting the additional drop of the bullet.

If the wind is blowing from six o'clock, the bullet has the wind velocity added to its muzzle velocity and reaches the target sooner with less bullet drop. Number '6' is near the top of the chart indicating that a shot will go high with a tailwind.

The wind seldom blows from twelve, three, six and nine o'clock, so all the other wind directions influence vertical and horizontal deflections in proportion to their vector and velocity. The remaining circles containing the wind velocity quadrant indicate the approximate quadrant of the respective bullet strikes.

Trying to keep all of the variables straight in the mind when shooting will make one cross-eyed so the chart is for reference as to which quadrant the specific wind direction will influence the bullet path. This chart does not reflect the distance that a bullet will be moved, but only indicates the vertical and horizontal deflection that may be expected from being influence by the respective wind directions.

http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/WindVector.htm

 

[Northern Rancher]

Probably the best way to learn how to dope wind is to just shoot your rifle alot in field conditions-sitting at a bench punching paper in no way ensures you will be able to deliver when a 200 plus mulie or 170 whitie is in front of your barrel. If you have to think much about what your going to do in a hunting situation alot of times your opportunity is missed-the big boys don't often hang around for long.

 

[RoperAB]

Mike
You know I tend to think of 30 cal as small bore and anything smaller than that as a toy.
You might want to try going bigger because the heavier the bullet the better it retains velocity at long range, plus the bigger the bullet the less it has to expand.
So if it retains velocity better it will expand better and you also get less wind drift.
Im not sure what weight your useing in your 7mm but if your action is long enough you can always get a gunsmith to open up your rifles throat so you can seat heavier bullets out farther.

I've tried 30 cals (30-378 WBY) and such. The heavier bullets do not always have the highest BC because of sectional density.

The 7mm bullets I use are from 110 grain to 175 grain. Pretty wide window for white tails and/or varmints.

I have never been able to get a Barnes X to shoot in any of my guns. They tend to copper a barrel pretty bad and I keep mine clear of all coppering and carbon.

When you reach a certain point BC doesnt matter anymore. You would have to look it up on charts and im just going from memory here but for example most 30 cal barnes x boat tail bullets have way more BC than what really matters.

A 180grain xbullet with low sectional density <no lead core>is going to have a better balistic coefficent because its longer to give you the same weight as the denser regular 180 grain lead core bullet. Example the 180 grain x bullet will have a longer more streamlined ogive<point> than the regular 180 grain lead core bullet.
As far as whats better 7mm or 30 cal the 30 cals are just starting to get warmed up with 180grains. Sierras 200gr boat tail is a wonderful long range target bullet thats also good on game. I really like the 30 cal 180 and 200 grain x bullets BTs.
The trouble with the 7mms and smaller cartridges is usually the gun that they are chambered in doesnt tend to have enough action length to properly handle the heavier bullets that are seated correctly.
Here is the trick with x bullet accuracy. The bullets cannot be seated deeper than the neck of the cartridge. Never seat the bullet so deap that the sides of the bullet are exposed to the powder resevior. Also make sure the bullet ogive fits the throat of the barrel. Example no more than 0.030" off the rifling. Thats why I will never buy a Weatherby. They have to much freebore between the rifling and the throat.
Also x bullets have to be fired from a clean barrel that has no regular copper foaling from regular bullets in it. Any regular fouling will destroy accuracy with the barnes. CR-10 or other agressive cleaners with amonia is a must.
I will write more tommorow, im so sleepy im falling a sleep here tonight :wink:

 

[Mike]

Probably the best way to learn how to dope wind is to just shoot your rifle alot in field conditions-sitting at a bench punching paper in no way ensures you will be able to deliver when a 200 plus mulie or 170 whitie is in front of your barrel. If you have to think much about what your going to do in a hunting situation alot of times your opportunity is missed-the big boys don't often hang around for long.

And on the other hand I have guided too may guys who never sat at a bench and sight their gun by resting on the hood of the truck and are satisfied with a 9" pie pan group at 100 yards.

They ALWAYS miss.

Knowing your gun, yours and it's abilities, and knowing what to do in the present conditions is where its at.

 

[RoperAB]

Knowing distance is a must, but wind is my main problem. Any Tips? :wink:

Wind is tricky at range, it's easy to see the wind direction where you are, but it could be totally different down range. To check direction at your location toss some light dead grass or powder in the air. A spotting scope may pick up some hints like the way the grass is bent over. Look for how much leaves are moving on trees to guage wind speed. I was told once but forgot how much movement equals what speed. Also you need to take into acount if it's a full value or half value wind. If the wind is straight towards you or away then you don't even worry about it as far as windage goes. If it's directly across your position you take it fully into account for your adjustment. If the wind is coming or going at an angle then you only use half the windage adjustment. If you really want to get into it, it's nothing more then Vectors, any physics book will go into that.

In the mountains you can even have the wind blowing from down to up!
Also if your shooting up or down hill this throws everything off. You have to judge the distance that it would be as if you were shooting flat.
Also wind speed is more important the closer it is to your muzzle than say at 300 yards but then when your bullet slows down at 700 yards the wind will have more effect again.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Afraid they don't always miss because that's what I do-want to take a walk through the 'House of Horn' lol. I'll take the guy with an old scratched stock and a gun with the bluing wore off over the guy with all the the shine who regals us at the supper table with tales of group sizes. I'll never foprget one guys eyes when my boss dropped a moose across a coulee easy 200 plus yard shot with an open sight model 94 30/30-like I saiud there are paper punchers and there are hunters.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Mike and Roper I was just laying in bed reading the newest Big Game Hunter-guess I shouldn't be ragging on guys about different hunting techniques-I'm curious what is your most memorable hunting experience. I'd like to say it was Ty's first buck but he went and arrowed it on his own lol. Mine would be almost 20 years ago-my buddy had found a good set of sheds while haying so I hunted for that buck all season. An old neighbor was after him to so we kind of hunted together. The old boy was calling the shots and we did see the deer a couyple times but never got a shot. One afternoon I told old Roy I was going to hunt in from a different direction in the A'M-well he didn't think it would work. Well next mornin g I got droppped off a mile or so from where I wanted to be-two hours before daylight-I didn't want to bump any feeding deer. It was -25 or so-I'll never forget how cold I got waiting in the dark-it was a kind of cold foggy morning and as it got light you could see does and fawns start to graze out of the timber. I was leaning on a rotten old hay bale when I saw him coming-he walked right by me at about ten yards and started to feed-it must of taken me ten minutes to get my mitt off and my gun up. I shot and he took off-I got two more shots off then he ran over the edge opf a little draw-a few seconds later he came out the other side and turned for the bush and I got one more shot off just as he hit the bush. Talk about dejected-I was sure I'd hit him but I couldn't find any blood-there was alot of selfcursing as I looked. Finally I tracked him to where he'd hit the timber and lo and behold there he was about ten yards in-I'd hit him three times in the lungs. He was my first real good whitetail-I still remember that morning like it was yesterday-the funny thing is a friend of mine shot a 198 two years ago in almost the same spot and a 187 there last year-it rewally is a honeyhole. Looking forward to your stories.

 

[Ben H]

if your interested, on the market is a scope that has a grid system in it. You use a little handheld unit to get your temp, pressure and wind speed. Then you type the inputs into a PDA (handheld computer) and it tells you which point on the grid to aim with. Looks pretty cool.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Yeah I think I saw that in a hunting magazine-Zeiss makes one with a built in range finder too-alot have those ranged reticles also-they only work if you know for sure how far the critter is for sure.

 

[Mike]

there are paper punchers and there are hunters.

Have you ever thought about some who might be both?

Just because someone spends time getting to know his capabilities and his
gun, doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't spent time hunting.

I'm just saying that I would rather put a clean shot on a 400 yard doe than bushwhack a big buck at 30 steps. It's a matter of personal preference.

My long range shooting interest came about in the 70's when we had lots of soybeans planted. A large group of deer could move in on any one particular night or day and eat the seedlings which could completely ruin a big field of beans.
Out of necessity we obtained permits for shooting these deer, night or day. One year we guesstimated that we (my brother and I and a friend) shot over 400 in the various places where we had beans planted.
The deer that were left became very spooky and it got to the point that every shot we made was a long one. I've got an old 700 Rem "Varmint Special" in 22-250 that has probably downed a couple of thousand altogether.
Back in those days the "Boys Ranch" (an orphanage) sent a crew over every morning to dress 'em for use as food and would sell the hides.
During hunting season we would guide pay hunters in these fields.
These were the guys I was talking about doing all the missing.

My most memorable deer was one morning during the rut I had been watching a pretty good buck and climbed up in a ladder stand along a scrape trail. I had to relieve some coffee and didn't have an empty bottle so I just let it go on the ground below the stand. Anyway, I sat there for about another hour and heard a grunt behind me. A few minutes later that buck walked up under my stand, smelled my urine and went nuts!
He was pawing the ground, rearing up on his hind legs, running around in circles, and snorting his head off.
I watched him do this for about 15 minutes and let him walk, thinking I would have given anything for a video camera of it. He would have scored about 150-175 and weighed about 300 with base horns the size of a beer can. As far as I know nobody ever shot him and he left his genes behind for several years.

 

[RoperAB]

About scopes and gadjets
First off reliability is the most important thing. Also only Leapold has enough eye relief for hard kicking magnums if your shooting from a prone position.
Target knobs are just to bulky and cumbersome for horses, plus they are a weak point to get smashed off. You want a scope thats as small as possible thats still practicle. Im thinking laser range finders are better if they are a separate unit from your scope.
50mm bells or anything bigger than 1" tubes are not really what I want. An adjustable bell is a must on a long range rig but you have to keep the size of the scope down as much as is practicle. The heavier the scope the more inertia from recoil. Im telling you right now that a scope has to be able to take a pounding. The more gadjets the worse.
About rectiles
Leapold has a Mil-Dot rectile that should be the answer. This gives the shooter different dots for different ranges. When I bought my last scope this rectile was not avalible so I just got the standard duplex rectile. However with the duplex you can sight in say for three hundred yards with your fine crosshairs. But then you can also use the top of the thick part of the post as a second cross hair say for a 500 yard aiming point. What you have to do is have your gun calibrated and sighted in ahead of time. Example to use the post at 500 yards turn your scopes power setting down to 6 power to give you a 500 yard point of impact. You have to work it out for your own individual rifle and load.
I use a cheat sheet with the calibrations taped to my rifle so I dont forget. But if you spend some time with this you can work out different calibrations for different ranges all with a standard duplex rectile and varible scope.
Favorite hunting trip
Mine was probable my first buck when I was a little kid. My relatives were all hunters but yet they did everything they could to discourage me from hunting. I guess they didnt want the competition. They used to make fun of my shooting or lack of marksmanship. Used to claim I would never be a good shot and that I didnt have what it took to be hunter or anything else in life. Anyway I know it annoyed them when I shot my first buck.
Another good hunt was a few years later. You see my uncle used to build tree stands everywhere as a way of claiming hunting territory. Example once he had a tree stand built in an area then I wasnt allowed to hunt anywhere near it after that. Even if he wasnt using it. So he basically built tree stands everywhere and I had to go hunt on public land.
Anyway one year I think I was only 17 or so<cant really remember> but one year him and his buddies hunted this one area really hard and never saw a thing. They gave up on the area. Anyway I didnt know this until afterwards.
So he made it sound like he wanted to be nice to me and he offered to let me use his tree stand<this is the one that they gave up on>. So I went back there and waited an hour and shot about the biggest buck that was ever shot in years! It was only dumb luck but it really pi$$ed them all off. Anyway I really enjoyed getting cursed at and getting told that I was never allowed to hunt in his territory again. You know the funny part was my uncle didnt even own the land. It all belonged to my grandmother :lol:

 

[RoperAB]

I'll never forget one guys eyes when my boss dropped a moose across a coulee easy 200 plus yard shot with an open sight model 94 30/30-like I saiud there are paper punchers and there are hunters.

Americans especially tend to get to caught up with gadjets. When I was guiding the dudes used to drag more useless junk with them into camp.

 

[Soapweed]

I'll never forget one guys eyes when my boss dropped a moose across a coulee easy 200 plus yard shot with an open sight model 94 30/30-like I saiud there are paper punchers and there are hunters.

Americans especially tend to get to caught up with gadjets. When I was guiding the dudes used to drag more useless junk with them into camp.

On the summer pack trip/hunting outfit where I worked in Wyoming, back in 1971, one of the older guides was rather a legend. He didn't put up with much malarky. He was cross-eyed and wore glasses, and you never knew if he was looking at you or a moose on the other side of the valley. One thing about it, those crossed eyes seemed to have x-ray vision, and he had a natural intuition if a dude-owned duffel bag had any extra souveniers along for the ride. He was known to unsnap a bag, dump all the contents on the ground, and throw away any cute little rocks or petrified wood that just added weight for a pack animal to carry. He would then unceremoniously cram everything else back into the bag and continue loading mules.

One of the guests had an extra-large unwieldy olive-drab duffel bag. After packing it one day, this guide had had enough. The next loading day, he grabbed the big over-stuffed bag in the middle, shook it a few times to get the contents evenly distributed on both sides, and then took out his jackknife. He just cut the bag into two equal pieces, and packed half a bag on each side of a mule.

The owner of the outfitting service never came along on any pack trips, but had pretty much a full-time job keeping several different pack trips and wagon train trips organized. He had an old army buddy that had a worthless son that he wanted the outfitter to turn into a useful human being. The outfitter sent the kid along on a twelve-day pack trip where this particular guide was a member of the crew. The kid was a hippy-type, with long hair and a sour attitude on life. The cross-eyed guide just hated the way that the hippy was always tossing his head so that his hair would momentarily flop out from in front of his eyes so he could see. The old guide put up with it as long as he could, but eventually dug out some hand-operated sheep shears. He awaited his chance, and got the hippy down on the ground and single-handedly sheared away the bangs so at least the kid could see. The kid was last seen riding one of the outfitter's horses, headed back down the mountain trail, hopefully in the direction of civilization.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Urine is a great buck attractant-I broke a few guys from pissing in a jug and handing it to me when I went to pick them up. Mike you haven't lived until you've been eye to eye with a boonie at 20 feet-the closest I've been was last day of season a few years back-three major bucks were walking down my fenceline-I had one little willow to stand in-they all walked right by me-the smallest was mid 150's. Thbe biggest buck got shot two years later he netted 174-real nice deer.Picking off deer at 400 plus yards is more an exercise in shooting than it is in hunting-not saying it's not a skill it's just not a hunting one. Most guys hunt from trucks driving around or from heated blinds over bait (which is legal here) but not me-I like to get out and take the game to the deer-alot more fun. I hate road hunters with a passion. Yeah there's some guys show up with pretty much cabellas entire inventory lol.

 

[RoperAB]

Northern I hate road<slob> hunters as well but thats not what im talking about.
It all depends on the terrain, game and method of hunting. Example you can take bears and whitetails over bait from a tree stand. Is that more sporting than spot and stalk on the Peace River where the chances are the shots are going to be much longer?
Elk during the rut are a lot different than during rifle season on public land. Same thing with Turbo Goats. If you wanted to put the time in I guess you could ambush one with a bow by a water hole. Does that make it more sporting?
I have shot a lot of game at a lot of different ranges and I have hunted a lot of different ways. To tell you the truth im sick of hunting. Its not a thrill anymore. What I now enjoy is just packing into the mountains. The prospect of a years supply of Elk meat gives the trip a purpose. Im probable not going to even bother going hunting anymore until my son is old enough to hunt. I honestly dont really care if I ever shoot another animal. Its really the trip I enjoy the most. Once you shoot the trip is over and the work begins.
The best part is always the packing in on horses. Enjoying the camp, enjoying the surroundings, puttering around camp, the food, sitting at the fire and enjoying a good pipe after supper watching your horses finish their supper.
Too many people get all wrapped up in"they have to kill something to be happy", or they turn it into a compatition. Damn fools hunt so hard they are exhusted, suffering, and there not enjoying themselves.
I have yet to have a hunting partner that was actually happy if I shot an animal. They say congratulations and all that other crap but they dont mean it. Im just sick of it. Whats the point? I have boxes of horns in the basement. Why put them up on the wall? The ones that dont hunt dont like them and the ones that do hunt just get half jelous when they see them.
Plus now a days trophy animals dont prove anything. If you have the money you can hire an outfitter to babysit you and basically get you the animal. If your a guide you know what im talking about.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Ohh you'd love hunting with me-we have three months of season and I hunt everry day I can-drives my wife crazy when I won't shoot anything till the last week-like I said you can shoot whitetail over a bait but we don't. Ty keeps one going so we have a place to put friends and such who want to hunt but can't keep up. I've taken deer at long ranges too but I don't purposely set out to do it-if I see a buck at 400 yards I'll usually try my best to hunt in closer-doesn't break my heart to have the deer win at all.I just think smacking a deer two time zones away just because you have the equipment to do it doesn't turn my crank at all-that's what prairie dogs and 'yotes are for IMO. As for trophy animals not proving anything I beg to differ-depends on the definition of a trophy-I've got some bucks mounted that aren't book but the circumstances made them a trophy to me. The kids and I fill every whitetail and mulie tag we can get and have a great time doing it every year. I end up taking half of Ty's friends hunting too-it's great hunting with the young guys and gals.

 

[Mike]

Let me tell you guys something that is a hoot to shoot!

We go to the big bermuda grass sod farms here that are sometimes thousands of acres. They are flat as a pancake and eat up with armadillos.

Kinda like shooting a watermelon. Red mist flies!

You can sit there and burn several hundred rounds in an afternoon.

Judging range on a piece of perfectly flat ground is pretty hard. You'll be shooting out to 600-800 yards before you know it.


They kinda shortened up our deer season this year.
Bow season opens Oct 14 thru Jan 31
Gun season opens Nov 18 thru Jan 31
2 deer per day allowed- 1 doe and 1 buck

That only allows us a little over 70 deer per season each. The cajuns are gonna be livid.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I better not let me boy see that season or those bag limits-he'd be moving to 'bama lol. Were allowed two either sex and one doe up here but it sure could be higher bag limit. Roper your a lucky guy to get to pack in after elk that would be great-elk are in the jungle up here but you get to hunt the rut. Armadillo shooting now that would be different-kind of like porcupines on impact I'm thinking. It would be fun to learn how to hit varmints at that range I only got to shoot prairie dogs once an d it was a blast. Gophers with a bow is alot of fun too.

 

[IL Rancher]

Our archery season tends to be October 1st through Jan 13th or so with 7 days off around thanksgiving for shotgun season (Two different weekends). Bag limits with bow are two bucks and as many does as you choose to track down. No one or two a day limit on them... I know folks who take 20-30 a year, mostly they have too as to get permission to hunt on the farmers the deal is 1) Shoot every doe you see 2) Shoot every doe you see and 3) if they raise livestock shoot every Yote they see... Oh, did I mention shoot every Doe you see? While they don't inforce it the last thing they want to hear from you is that you saw 15 does that day and didn't take any... Bad... Bad... Bad.