• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

Thinking out Loud

M

MN Farm Girl

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
538
Location
Southwest MN
Hey guys I have some ideas and I am just thinking out loud. I would like your feedback whether it be for or against I am open to suggestions. Well I was thinking that for our operation would it work to turn the bull out on the 1st of June, and then pull him the 1st of August. Then on the 1st of October or there abouts preg-check all the cows and then all that aren't bred ship, no matter how good they are. After that with the money take and buy 2 or 3 bred heifers or young bred cows to replace the herd, and keep new genetics in. I was just wondering what your guys' thoughts were.

MN Farm Girl
 
The 60 day breeding period work's and culling open's after that is common place.

But buying replacement heifers I would'nt do keep the heifers from the cows that bred back in 60 day's.You can't buy as good of cattle as you can raise cattle that are already adapted to your feed condition's.

I bought 24 bred heifers in 2002 of those there are 2 that are standout cow's 8 are average cows and 14 have been culled.

If you really want to get tough on them switch to a 45 day breeding season.

Or just keep the heifers who are born in the first 21 day's.

Problem with buying heifers is you get your's after the breeder has picked their's out off the top..
 
MN Denny said it all except than when you do breed your hfs, expose them for 21-30 days at the same time as your cows first cycle. If you do you will need a few more in the breeding pen. If you choose the 45 day option and the one cycle replacement option you will have the most fertile cows on the block. The open hfs will make good candidates for you grass finished or short keep business. :wink:
 
Denny said:
Problem with buying heifers is you get your's after the breeder has picked their's out off the top..
Click to expand...

Some of us that sell bred heifers are not selling the bottom end of our herd. In Feb/Mar I freeze brand, and pick my replacements then, based first on genetics, then size. With the amount of AI'd heifs I have, my replacements are almost always from AI breeding. And my sale heifs are of equal size or larger, which include all the baldies. Of course, growing changes once they hit the grass, and come fall, some of the smaller heifs with higher freeze brand numbers look damn good, and I'm wondering why she doesn't have a lower number. Obviously she didn't do well on feed over the winter, but compensated for it on grass.
Many producers around here sell every calf in the fall, then buy their replacements, whether it's heifs or cows.
Of course, the resources here are quite different than in Minn. Utilize your resources that best fits your program.
Like you MN Farm Girl, I'm just thinking out loud.
 
The only thing I would add is too AI your heifers. Typically these are the easiest to catch in heat and are the best genetics on the farm. We coupled with better genetics from AI you improve your herd faster. This also spares the expense of having a heifer bull around too.
 
Denny said:
You can't buy as good of cattle as you can raise cattle that are already adapted to your feed condition's.
Click to expand...
Why doesn't this work for bulls??????

Frank, some years ago, my breed rep and I were walking through my yearling heifers. He pointed out a small heifer and said I should go ahead and sell her because she wouldn't fit my program. I agreed, but, as I was working on increasing my herd, I was giving all my heifer the chance to cull themselves. That little heifer calved at two and so did her first calf heifer...and the one after that...and the one after that...and the one after that. That little heifer has turned into one of the most prolific producer of replacements that stay in the herd.
Just goes to show we aren't always as smart as we think we are.
 
Why dosn't this work for bulls??? Because we take a lot better care of that 3000 thousand dollar bull from out of state till he can {ajust} :lol: to our feeding system.
 
turbo said:
Why dosn't this work for bulls??? Because we take a lot better care of that 3000 thousand dollar bull from out of state till he can {ajust} :lol: to our feeding system.
Click to expand...
A bull you raise needs no adjustment.

Every bull you bring in from outside your herd, dilutes your 'adapted' genetics in your replacements.
 
Unless you exercise due diligence and seek out breeders in your area who are raising bulls exactly how you raise your herd.

I admit Robert, it's rare and hard to find, but there are some of them out there. I bought 5 bulls this spring from outfits that run theirs just like we run ours, then went against my own grain and bought 2 that don't. Funny thing is, out of those 2 that came from an outfit that feeds heavy, 1 is doing great breeding 60 head and not losing weight, while the other one has been with 30 and is melting away.

All 5 of the bulls we bought from similar operations are running with big groups of cows in rough country and are doing great.

You know what the best looking bull calves and yearlings are though? The crossbred ones out of cows that were born and raised here, and out of bulls that are "locally adapted", as Dr. Provenza would say.
 
As for keeping heifers, I've seen herds whose bottom end could be better than another one's top end, 8) so bought heifers aren't always poorer than home raised. A home raised heifer would have to be better than average in more than the home herd to be a real super herd improver.
 
Here is some food for thought.
If you have a top producing, milking dam, and have found a sire crossed combination that is producing the kind of calves that are productive and profitable for you then why not consider flushing that dam to produce replacment heifers that you know will work? I think that we all have a top dam that we wished the whole herd was like.
Embryos cost $200-300 to purchase or a lot less if you are doing your own flush. You know exactly what you are getting with the mating, can have several identical animals, and you can't buy or birth for that kind of money. IMO this is the future. Estabishing entire herds of identical genetic animals that are efficent and profitable.
 
cutterone said:
Here is some food for thought.
If you have a top producing, milking dam, and have found a sire crossed combination that is producing the kind of calves that are productive and profitable for you then why not consider flushing that dam to produce replacment heifers that you know will work? I think that we all have a top dam that we wished the whole herd was like.
Embryos cost $200-300 to purchase or a lot less if you are doing your own flush. You know exactly what you are getting with the mating, can have several identical animals, and you can't buy or birth for that kind of money. IMO this is the future. Estabishing entire herds of identical genetic animals that are efficent and profitable.
Click to expand...

Cutterone, you almost made my point...why not use a bull out of that "top dam" to spread her genetics though out your herd? A whole lot cheaper than flushing or AI and will lead to more (hopefully better) consistency of production because you are concentrating your 'top, adapted genetics'!!!

Beings we are "thinking out load"...why do producers think the grass(genetics) is greener on the other side of the fence?
 
I had a similar conversation with Dale Davis on an Angus tour a few years ago.
His answer was "How different are you and your siblings? Humans have 24 chromosomes per cell and cattle have 36. There can be a lot of differences between full siblings."

As for grass being greener. It's always greener on the other side of the fence, but usually there's no water.
 
I've been doing some ET and to date the only contributing factor in difference I've come up with is the ability of the recip dam to raise the offspring. Tempermant, growth, and even physical atributes very similar. The real premium I see is that basicaly every calf you raise will be very similar in growth and grade if fed similarly and your customer/buyer will know exactly what he will get every time and look forward to buying your product and willing to pay for it.
 
I really like all the feed back guys and I am taking it all in. I see where you guys are coming from on your thoguhts and opinions. It is greatly appreciated. Dad and I figured out what we are going to do for sure now. We preg checked the cows and heifers yesterday and 4 cows out of 8 were open and 2 possibly 3 heifers were open out of 6. But the problem is is that the open cows are the biggest best cows we have. The bull is going to go with the heifers. But we have some Blizzard semen and we are going to breed the open cows, all except one because she has a bad bag is was going to go anyway. We are going to breed them so we get fall calves, then the cows will be back in rotation to get spring calves the next year. And the plus to all this is that we won't have a bull to feed over the winter. And with the money we get from the open cow and heifers we will buy bred Hereford heifers and a bull, from a guy in Northern Iowa that isn't far from us. So to continue this thread what do you guys think of this?????
 
Great anology, Frank.
Dale Davis was pretty 'real'.

I remember when they asked him what the best bull he ever
raised was and he said, "Rito 707." That bull is OLD and Dale
had lots of bulls in the stud books since then. I was always amazed
at that comment from him and gave it a lot of thought.

He certainly was a pioneer in the Angus breed in Montana.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MN Farm Girl: What's the reason your cows didn't breed up any better than they did? Were they too fat? Too thin?

Think back to what could have contributed to this high a % of opens. Be honest. If you can't come up with a real reason, you may have a fertility problem. Why keep a problem?

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
 
MN Farm Girl said:
I really like all the feed back guys and I am taking it all in. I see where you guys are coming from on your thoguhts and opinions. It is greatly appreciated. Dad and I figured out what we are going to do for sure now. We preg checked the cows and heifers yesterday and 4 cows out of 8 were open and 2 possibly 3 heifers were open out of 6. But the problem is is that the open cows are the biggest best cows we have. The bull is going to go with the heifers. But we have some Blizzard semen and we are going to breed the open cows, all except one because she has a bad bag is was going to go anyway. We are going to breed them so we get fall calves, then the cows will be back in rotation to get spring calves the next year. And the plus to all this is that we won't have a bull to feed over the winter. And with the money we get from the open cow and heifers we will buy bred Hereford heifers and a bull, from a guy in Northern Iowa that isn't far from us. So to continue this thread what do you guys think of this?????
Click to expand...
When I first started, I did two calving seasons so the "cows that should have been sold" would produce me a calf every 18 months instead of every 2 years.

My ET man told me once that he had several customers that would expose their cows to their bull and would want him to AI or put embryos in the ones that came up open...and then were disappointed at the low conception rate!!! :shock: He said the bull deposits a whole lot more semen than he uses AI...if they wouldn't breed for the bull, it's less likely they would for him.
 
cutterone said:
I've been doing some ET and to date the only contributing factor in difference I've come up with is the ability of the recip dam to raise the offspring. Tempermant, growth, and even physical atributes very similar. The real premium I see is that basicaly every calf you raise will be very similar in growth and grade if fed similarly and your customer/buyer will know exactly what he will get every time and look forward to buying your product and willing to pay for it.
Click to expand...
Frank said:
I had a similar conversation with Dale Davis on an Angus tour a few years ago.
His answer was "How different are you and your siblings? Humans have 24 chromosomes per cell and cattle have 36. There can be a lot of differences between full siblings."
Click to expand...
Judging from my full sib ETs, I agree with Mr. Davis...sometimes. :wink:
 
Not pushing the ET thing on anybody but using your info if you have 25 cows with different different gentics with 36 chromozones, and using the same bull, and I use 1 donor with 36 x the same bull who has the greatest oppertunity for varience?
 
Faster Horses, the problem was the bull was too small. When we paid for him and claimed him in early March he was looking really good, and had the possibility of growing out really nice. But the catch is, is that they put him in a pen of steers and essentially ruined him. When we brought him home in early June he only weighed 1250 at 14 months, so in other words he didn't get pushed. So he is getting shipped as a steer with the heifer.

MN Farm Girl
 

Latest posts

Back
Top