Thompson/Center SS rifles?

[Mike]

A poor shot is a poor shot regardless of equipement. A good shot is a good shot with poor equipement and a better shot with better equipement.
Lee Harvey Oswald used an Italian Carcano piece of crap better than what most could use a target rifle.
Shooting under pressure is 90% mental, 10% technique. I dont play gulf but I have heard both sports are similar.

I would say that equipment comes into play for some of these percentages during extreme accuracy endeavors.

Some of my guns are way more accurate than I am capable of.

Especially when it's windy out.

A good shot is no better than his equipment will allow him to be.

 

[RoperAB]

Look at all the people who traded in their good old 30/06s when that 7mm Rem. mag came out. There really is dick all difference between them.
People get to wrapped up in balistic charts anyway.

Don't you think that the new "Short Magnums" are just a way to sell new guns also?

Though they are slightly more efficient and have slightly flatter trajectories, but the terminal ballistics are what is of utmost importance.



The new "Electronic Ignition" cartridges just didn't go over either.

Talk about gimmics
I just found out today that Barnes has discontinued the 130grain x bullet. So now when I get my stock used up im going to have to switch to there new triple shock x bullet. Do you know how much time and money that means for load developement, sighting in Plus I also will need their new reloading book
It pi$$es me off the way there always coming out with something new!
The old bullet worked great They shouldnt mess with something that works
They did this same trick sort of a few years ago when they changed the ojive on the 180 grain FB. I didnt even notice the change until I had almost 100 rounds loaded

 

[Mike]

What ogive did they change the 180 to? What caliber are you speaking of for the 130's?

Honestly, I have never had any luck with the barnes bullets. I guess I have never had a barrel that liked them. :???:

I have a buddy that makes 22's, 6mm's, and 30 cals from J4 jackets. They are really thin jackets that are made for benchrest but work on game if you slow them down quite a bit. He makes several ogives from 6 1/2 to 8.

I'd like to make some bullets but the good dies are over $3,000.00.

Don't shoot enough anymore to justify it.

 

[RoperAB]

What ogive did they change the 180 to? What caliber are you speaking of for the 130's?

Honestly, I have never had any luck with the barnes bullets. I guess I have never had a barrel that liked them. :???:

I have a buddy that makes 22's, 6mm's, and 30 cals from J4 jackets. They are really thin jackets that are made for benchrest but work on game if you slow them down quite a bit. He makes several ogives from 6 1/2 to 8.

I'd like to make some bullets but the good dies are over $3,000.00.

Don't shoot enough anymore to justify it.

Its the ogive on the .308" 180grain flat base. They made the bullet longer which pushed the ogive towards the base of the bullet by quite a bit. Cant remember off hand how much. They did put a small note in the box of bullets warning about this but because I was useing up a previousely opened box of bullets first and then I didnt even see the notice because it was at the bottom of the new box under the bullets I had almost a hundred rounds loaded up before I noticed.
Its the 130 grain boat tail .308" bullets that they discontinued

Haha You know all this talk about guns has me thinking about dusting off my guns and getting back into shooting. Man I hate winter. Friggen days are so short!

 

[RoperAB]

Hey I doubt you could get top performance with a $3000 bullet swageing outfit but im no expert.
One thing I do is that you can get great performance out of cast bullets.
Now im just going by memory here but for my 30/06 Ruger #1 I think the load was180 grain cast bullet in front of 17 grains of SR4759.
Tip the muzzle before you fire and you could get 2" groups all day at 200 yards. This is just a fun gun for practiceing shooting off hand or for geese and gophers. But its a cheap load to shoot.
For real cast bullet performance you need to go much bigger. I have shot a lot of game with the 45/70 and 45/90.

 

[Mike]

Now im just going by memory here but for my 30/06 Ruger #1 I think the load was180 grain cast bullet in front of 17 grains of SR4759.

It has been said many times that the powder that most nearly fills the case is usually the best one to use and usually the most accurate.

I remember a long conversation with a rifle builder in North Carolina (very well respected in the BenchRest circle too) that was telling me about being hired by his local sherriff's office to investigate an accident at a shooting range there.

He told me about the guy, whom he had known, that had loaded some bullets in a 30-378 the night before and had gone to the range the next morning. The guys sitting on a bench down from him said he (the deceased) had fired about 30-40 rounds when on one shot the rifle completely blew apart, shredding the action, blowing the rifle scope over 50 yards away, and instantly killing the shooter.

To make a long story short, James (my friend) and two other gun experts came to the conclusion that the man had "double dropped" some powder (his powder measure would not drop enough in one drop to fill the case so he had divided the number of grains needed by two and set his measure there) the night before and only dropped one in the case that caused the accident.

Their conclusion was that the powder in the half filled case laid flat in bottom of the case and ignited improperly because it was not filled. The pressure in the chamber was not directed towards the muzzle of the gun as is usual when powder is ignited from the rear of the cartridge and causes it to burn from back to front. This improper ignition exceeded the pressure specifications of the rifle chamber and exploded it.

Their conclusion was validated by the FBI lab in Quantico Virginia as the reason for the rifle failure. I forget the name of the terminology they used but there is a word for it.

Be very careful when loading these rounds with less than a full case of powder Roper. I am truly confident of the expertise of these guys analysis.

SR4759 has way too fast of a burning rate to use in a 30-06.

Hey I doubt you could get top performance with a $3000 bullet swageing outfit but im no expert.

This is the price for JUST two "Carbide" dies. The first die used is to form the bullet somewhat by squirting out the excess lead and the "Pointing Die" is used to complete the tip of the bullet and to finish the ogive completely.
Not including the punches used to fill the jacket with lead.

They are much better than the steel dies used by Sierra, Hornady, etc.

I would also need some heavy duty presses that are pricy too.

It costs about $20 to $30 grand to start making benchrest quality bullets, not including the jackets and lead/antimony wire needed.

I think I'll keep buying mine already swaged. :wink:

 

[RoperAB]

<<It has been said many times that the powder that most nearly fills the case is usually the best one to use and usually the most accurate. >.

Thats true if you dont carefully raise your muzzle straight up in the air before you fire each shot. By raiseing your muzzle and then bringing it down to shoot you are placeing the powder in the exact same position in the case for every shot. Powder position in the case makes a big difference with reduced loads. If the powder is forward your bullet will hit low. If your powder is back against the primer your bullet will hit high. Powder position doesnt really make much difference as long as its in the same position each time. Thats why I tilt my muzzle.
You can also use cream of wheat or dacron fiber as a case filler. I have never had any accuracy improvements with fillers.


<<He told me about the guy, whom he had known, that had loaded some bullets in a 30-378 the night before and had gone to the range the next morning. The guys sitting on a bench down from him said he (the deceased) had fired about 30-40 rounds when on one shot the rifle completely blew apart, shredding the action, blowing the rifle scope over 50 yards away, and instantly killing the shooter.>>

When you use reduced loads of some powders in big cases pressure sometimes becomes eratic. Nobody to my knowledge knows why but in a big Weatherby case a 1/2 charge of a powder like IMR3031 can give you way more pressure than even a doule charge or full case of IMR3031. If that guy would have been shooting a double charge of 3031 he probable would have been safer than by useing reduced charges.
SR 4759 works extremely well for reduced loads in big cases. Much better than any other powder I have ever tried. It really gives you consistant pressures. That load in my 30/06 is actually so low pressure that I have excessive headspace in my reloads because the case doesnt expand enough to push the case walls/shoulder out and ahead. Example when I reload I only neck size. <No im not neck sizeing to much and pushing the shoulder back directly from wrong die settings> But from repeated neck sizeing the shoulder gets pushed back a little because even with new brass the case body doesnt really fireform in your chamber enough to expand the case.
Example I only use certain cases with my reduced 06 loads. I would never use these cases for full charge loads with copper bullets because of the headspace issues.
About powder burning from the front to the back. They are full of crap! Look back in the 1930s Elmer Keith and Dubiel experimented like you wouldnt believe with what they called duplex loading. Most of todays shooters think that duplex loads are when you use different charges of different powders in layers in the same case. But years ago duplex loading had a whole different meaning.What they were doing was they would tread a copper tube into the primer hole so the primer flash would ignite the powder charge at the base of the bullet and burn from the bullet backwards to the primer or rim of the case<towards the shooter> . What they achieved was lower chamber pressure and increased bullet velocity. They got there idea patented and then summited it to the US Army for the war effort. The Army never went ahead with it because it was more expensive and they had other things to spend there money on. But this is proven technology and by God I have more respect for Elmer Keith than I do the government or any of these pretty boy gun writers of today. Elmer Keith was my role model in life and although I have never experimented with his duplex loads he has been right about everything else he ever said so I have no reason to doubt him.
BTW With cast bullets your best accuracy is usually under 1200fps. Actually with my rifles the best accuracy is normally sub sonic. The main thing is to find enough velocity to stabilise the bullet for the range you are going to be shooting.
Example even with modern rifles its common to actually get bet accuracy with some loads at long range than you do at close range which pretty much blows the 1" at 100 yards/3" group at 300 yards theory.
Like with even modern bullets you will get less wind drift if you go either faster or slower than around 1500 to 18oo fps. Im not 100% sure on this velocity window because its been a few years. But remember the old black powder express loads? They are a terrible long range rig because they shoot just fast enough that wind drift becomes really bad. If you reduce the loads<with a filler because thats the onlysafe way to reduce black powder loads> you actually get better accuracy. That or if your gun is strong enough you can load them up with smokeless powder so you get your velocity high enough that the wind drift gets better again. If your doubting me check it out for yourself on a ballistics chart that shows wind drift.

<<SR4759 has way too fast of a burning rate to use in a 30-06.>>

SR4759 is perfect for reduced loads in the 30/06. If I remember right it was specially made for reduced loads for your military. I have shot tens of thousands of rounds with this powder.


<<I think I'll keep buying mine already swaged. >>

With cast lead bullets your best accuracy is if you can get a mold that produces the exact size of bullet that you want without resizeing it. The more you have to swage<resize> the less accuracy.
I suspect the reason those barnes x bullets shoot so well is because they are solid copper, no core. Have you ever notice that a lot of great hunting bullets example the Speer Grand Slam are not the best for accuracy?
Anyway I have to wonder if its possible even with a $30,000 home swage kit to produce as accurat of a bullet as outfits like Sierra do?
You know years ago we used to have jigs to measure bullet run out. We used to weigh every factory bullet. Thats all a waste of time now a days. But im thinking that Sierra or Barnes have invested millions in their bullet making machinery.
PS reduced loads and jacketed bullets are not the best combo. Lead cast bullets are more consistant and in some cases a lot more safe. Jacketed bullets can really up your pressure in reduced loads.

 

[Mike]

Whatever works for you, I guess. Each powder was designed to burn at a controlled rate.

I like to be able to control that rate, as much as I can. When dumping a less than full charge, that control goes out the window.

There is something to be said about a bullet that enters or exits the speed of sound. The .22 rimfire guys are shooting bullets so slow that you can actually see them in flight.

Reason....to keep them subsonic throughout the trajectory, since they won't stay supersonic out to the targets. Plus the fact that high speed lead bullets tend to lead a barrel quickly, thus reducing accuracy.

Sierra, Hornady and all those guys are working on volume and quantity instead of perfection in each bullet. It's called mass production which lowers the quality of the overall units. Nothing wrong with it either.... cause the buyers won't know the diff anyway.

 

[RoperAB]

Well Sierra does make some very accurate bullets. The 308 cal 200g game king is a wonderful target bullet.
Im trying to remember but I think its the 168g Sierra match bullet is what a lot of metalic silhoutte used to use in the 80s. Im sure it was the Sierra match bullets that were the most popular, I just cant remember the weight.
The problem I have had with Hornady, Speer and Sierra is mostly on game. In magnum rifles they usually blow up at close range and or fail to expand at long range.
Thats why I stay with Barnes X bullets. I know how they perform on game.

 

[Angus Cattle Shower]

Well, not that I can tell much, but when we got my new rifle, we got 2 free boxes of shells, se we got a box of Remington Excellerator 150's, a box of federal shells, and another box of reload 150's from uncle Jerome. I'll be darned if the Excellerators diddnt just kick the competiptions arse, the worse shot was 2 inches off the bullseye, and man oh man does it pack a load of punch with the deer, we havent seen any big bucks snce last satuday, I think its cause they know im a threat :wink: