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TIE-DOWNS

My poor horses get ridden whereever my hands have to be at the time-pretty hard to be aware of hand position and such when chasing cows through the bush. My horses do what I want when I want but I'm not a good enough horseman to tell you how I get them to do it. I do tend to ride with my hands pretty low I think and I threw tiedowns away years ago. A horse really needs to keep his balance crossing muskkeg so they don't panic and wallow in on you.
 
Ed Connel (author of hackamore reinsman) translates california reinsmen, "high hands - shoe clerk, low hands, vacarro"

Dave Jones ( practical western training and Connel deciple) says, "high hands high head, low hands low head"

These guys are both hackamore trainers where a "steady pull" is unacceptible.
 
I cringe sometimes when I go up to work my horses on a practice night at the arena. A bunch of young kids up there all with tie downs on their horses because it's "trendy". Not a one of them have any real control of their horses and if you ask them why they are using a tie down, they shrug their shoulders without a clue and will generally say he came with one.

I am under the old adage my mother told me as a very young rider that less was more. Most problem horses I run in to have problem riders. I have ridden a few horses for people that were having issues. They still couldn't get it through their thick heads even seeing me ride the horse and it was going along good that it might be them and not the horse. So off to the tack store they go to buy yet another device to control their horse..... :roll:

I hate to bring up Parelli but that saying he likes to use "take the time it takes so it takes less time" could really apply to some of theses horses and people. JMO
 
Copper1272 said:
I hate to bring up Parelli but that saying he likes to use "take the time it takes so it takes less time" could really apply to some of theses horses and people. JMO

In his older tapes(I havnt seen his new ones) Pat Parelli will lift straight up in the air on the halter rein and bump the horse to get it to back up.
 
What is "high hands"?
Is 90 degrees from your body high? Example hands at a right angle?
Im just wondering if everybody on hear is visioning the same thing?
 
Roper, your 90 degree position is a pretty good mendosa line


I have a brother in law that is a vet and a refined horseman (rare combination arround here). I'd say accomplished horseman because his horses end up very nicely finnished, but he claims to "always be in school." He sez the way to train a horse is "have more time than the horse." lotsa truth to that.
 
I wonder to if everyone is on the same page? This is what I mean by 'lift your hand up'. It refers to "Bridle Horses" when your horse is trained to flex at the poll you can engage the horse with your legs and seat and then lift slightly up with the reins and he will flex at the poll and bridle up. Now your hands should never leave an imagineary box that sets just in front of your horn, no lower then your pomel. I used to ride a lot worse then I do now and I fell into the hands down at my knees thing. Then when I transitioned my horse to a bit he had no idea what was going on. If you stay within the 'box' then when you do go to the next level your hand position doesn't change and your horse doesn't have to try and figure out what you are doing. It works for me anyway and if you look around the true horseman around ride with as little movement out of the box as possible.
 
Even on a finished bridle horse what type of gear<Ramel or split reins> will effect the height of your hand.
 
RoperAB said:
Copper1272 said:
I hate to bring up Parelli but that saying he likes to use "take the time it takes so it takes less time" could really apply to some of theses horses and people. JMO

In his older tapes(I havnt seen his new ones) Pat Parelli will lift straight up in the air on the halter rein and bump the horse to get it to back up.


I agree he does and did. I was basically commenting on the tie down as being a quick fix for something that if someone is having problems in general that if they took the time to really see what works for them instead of throwing a device on the horse thinking it will fix the problem.

I have taken some time with my filly this year and have seen greater progress than before. I can set her up now to bend for me at the point she feels me run my hand down the rope she is anticipating the bend and not making me pull her around. I think in the long run if you take your time to fine tune them you have alot less problems down the road.
 
Going to back to Pat Parelli a bit; I watched him at a clinic in Butte, Mt. He had sticks that he gave to half the riders. He paired everyone up, one stick to each pair. What he showed them was if you pick up the right rein with your right hand and take it to your left shoulder (and vice-versa) your horse can move his rear end around so quick that your partner cannot tap him with the stick. If you use your right hand on the right rein and pull back to your hip, or the cantle of the sadddle, you horse cannot get his rear out of the way quick enough to avoid the tap from the partner.

Pretty interesting.
 
If I'm understanding you RAB it doesn't matter. There are a couple of reasons, other then personal pref. , that trainers use the romal reins. One is that you can cheat a little more with them, another is that it is custom for bridle horses to be ridden with them. But either way your hands should neither be way up in the air or down by your knees. Try sometime to really pay attention to what happens to your body when you move your hands way down. Most of the time your shoulders will drop and roll forward, your eyes focus on your horses head instead of where you're going and your hips roll foreward causing you to lose all contact with your seat therefore causing you to just be riding with your hands. Now do the same for up to high you end up leaning back and kicking your feet forward. The older I get the more I realize how much of what is wrong with my horse is caused by the way I ride. :???:
 
Heel Fly said:
If I'm understanding you RAB it doesn't matter. There are a couple of reasons, other then personal pref. , that trainers use the romal reins. One is that you can cheat a little more with them, another is that it is custom for bridle horses to be ridden with them. But either way your hands should neither be way up in the air or down by your knees. Try sometime to really pay attention to what happens to your body when you move your hands way down. Most of the time your shoulders will drop and roll forward, your eyes focus on your horses head instead of where you're going and your hips roll foreward causing you to lose all contact with your seat therefore causing you to just be riding with your hands. Now do the same for up to high you end up leaning back and kicking your feet forward. The older I get the more I realize how much of what is wrong with my horse is caused by the way I ride. :???:

No your not understanding me. Sorry Im not very slick when it comes to putting stuff into words and writing them down.
When I start colts I keep my hands lower for the most part than I do on a finished horse. Your right about how really low hands throws your weight forward and puts you out of position. Im not riding with my hands by my knees but I do keep them lower at first because I find it helps the colts with his head position.
Example I bit up my colts at Like Ed Connell. My reins are tied low about where the cinch rings are or where my knees would be if I was riding the colt.
Now I do it a little different than Ed Connel because by this time my colt is pretty good as far as groundwork goes. So when I bit them up I also have a halter and lead rope on them. I get the horse to walk circles around me while he is bited up.
This way if he gets over the bit or starts to hollow out his back and pull his hindquarters along with his front I can cause him to speed up his walk a little bit and engage his hindquarters more so he doesnt get all strung out.
But in general I find its easier for the colts to learn this if the reins are tied low instead of high, say tied to the saddle horn.
But what im saying is that nothing is written in stone. I dont think I have ever used the exact same steps or techniques to train any two horses because there all a little different.
All I was saying was that I did not disagree with what others on here had wrote because I can think of circumstances where they would be right.
Plus its really hard to talk about training horses on this forum because unless you write a book its really easy for other people to take what you say the wrong way and I really think there was a cetain amount of that going on in this thread. Example maybe when I read their posts I was visualizing it different than you. It would be so much easier for us to all talk about horsemanship if we were all riding together and could just show the other person what we meant.
LOLs I dont like or use split reins because I rope and im not used to them and would probable be dropping them. The Romel is handy for me because its a solid rope rein and the quirt on the end comes in handy every now and then.
 
Sorry!! I get it know and ya when I start colts it's that way, my hands are lower for their ease of learning. You are so right about the way people interrpurt things, everyone will get something different out of the same thing. Oh well we are all just human :lol: :lol:
 
Me too. I didn't mean to use your hands high when starting colts, or even when riding an older horse. I meant there is a place for it in the breaking process.

Yes, hard to explain everything on here unless you are writing a book.

I did enjoy the thread, though.

And Heel Fly, you do know what you are talking about because the Oakie said so! :wink:

And I'll bet Roper AB does as well.
 

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