Topp Herefords

[PPRM]

As for imf - where are you getting a prime spread to justify chasing it? It's a biological fact that it takes less energy to put a pound of muscle on a critter than a pound of fat. I theorize imf deposition isn't as variable among cattle as people think, but a heavy muscled limmy has more muscle to spread the same amount of fat over. Cab has taught us a lot about feeding cattle. It used to be you wanted to buy condition (thin calves), but if you want to hit the cab grid you simply must avoid the high yg #s. We're learning the calf that did well on his momma, optimized growth - not necessarily a creep bomb - but some neck fat, then a good weaning and feeding period will do better on the grid. It's like the calf is depositing imf while on the cow, so you don't have to do it all in the yard (where you'll get to yg3+).

If you want to know about imf deposition, brethours group at ft hays has it figured out. John passed but their ultrasound work is enlightening.

There is solid gold in that there.

I've been to a number of WSU and OSU deals where they talk about the effect of nutritional plane of grading. The first study was like on 400 pound calves. If you starve 400 pound calves, there is a tremendous difference in the grading on these calves later. They have dialed that clear back to the fetus. If 2 month bred cows lack nutrients, you will see a marked difference in the grading of those calves.

As I remember, it doesn't mean you have to feed super hot feed. You do have to have a good nutritional plane on the cows and the calves to fully express marbling. Yep, you can't starve profit into cattle.

Marbling is hugely genetic as well. I have found I really have to watch my calcium levels on my good marbling cow herd. Marbling and milking are highly correlated.

As far as single trait... Sometimes I think you just want to avoid the bottom half of the breed on a number versus trait benders. When the Zoetis deal came out and had numbers on tenderness, I was pretty excited because of our direct marketing program. When it severely started limiting the bulls I'd use, I paused. We don't get complaints for tough steaks. Hmmmm... I also looked at the MARC research on breed diffeences for tenderness. I am mostly Simangus breeding. Simmentals have a breed advantage with regards to tenderness. So, I decided mostly I want to use tenderness score to keep the worst of the breeds out.

I think that applies to other things as well. Moderate is great. LOL, I have friends who have decided low birth wt may really only mean cattle with shorter gestation periods.

 

[Amo]

That was soapweed replacing Bulls - run them for a season and swap them into the beef stream while they're still pretty valuable.

As for improving the factory without trait leading Bulls: suppose the trait is milk in this consideration. If you go to a trait bending bull (any breed but a zebu) for milk, his heifer progeny likely would milk too much to breed back on grass. So to upgrade the factory, you're really looking at a trait optimizing matrix. And those critters might not even be the high priced Bulls at the bull sale. It took me 5 years to understand what soapweed was onto in bull selection.

If i was riding in a pickup with kit pharo and soapweed, if kit started telling me about ranching, I'd turn the radio up (and I don't disagree with kits over enunciation of the obvious and making it sound like his idea). If soapweed started talking, I'd get a pen and something to write on.

Kinda figured that was the idea. Try to dump the bulls for fat price instead of weigh up. Have to buy pretty reasonable bulls Id think to recoup full purchase (or close) price vs. run 4-5 and sell for weigh up. Yes, Angus excelled the curve bender traits beyond the curve. I figured thats what your talking about. You need to match your enviroment. Tired a google search about trait optimizing matrix. Came up with out much. Don't get me wrong, I understand you don't want to create cattle that don't take more requirements than you can economically provide, but If your wanting to maintain/line breed "status quo", just keep your own bulls. I think we are on the same page with Pharo! :lol:

I agree with the Simmetal comment. I bought some very framey Hereford cows once. Fair bit of white. Bred them to registared Angus. Had a good percentage that came out charlois color. Have heard from other sources that they threw some Simmy in to get some size. I have never intended to "win" a contest, I knew I didn't have that good of genetics. Just wanted to see where I needed to improve. Yes some of the calves I entered were from them Simmy types. I also entered for 2 years in a row a higher (preformance & carcass, but moderate frame) end Hereford sired calf via AI that was on a moderate Angus cow. I don't remember right now, but I wasn't impressed with how it graded. Im not chasing prime. That was the line Ryan Topp kept going back to. Myself Im just wanting to get away from the selects. Like I said, 4 head a year for 4-5 years out of 150ish head isn't a very good test, but it is a test. Thats the results I have gotten back so far. Trying to improve from what little data I have, even if its just a little.

As for imf - where are you getting a prime spread to justify chasing it? It's a biological fact that it takes less energy to put a pound of muscle on a critter than a pound of fat. I theorize imf deposition isn't as variable among cattle as people think, but a heavy muscled limmy has more muscle to spread the same amount of fat over. Cab has taught us a lot about feeding cattle. It used to be you wanted to buy condition (thin calves), but if you want to hit the cab grid you simply must avoid the high yg #s. We're learning the calf that did well on his momma, optimized growth - not necessarily a creep bomb - but some neck fat, then a good weaning and feeding period will do better on the grid. It's like the calf is depositing imf while on the cow, so you don't have to do it all in the yard (where you'll get to yg3+).

If you want to know about imf deposition, brethours group at ft hays has it figured out. John passed but their ultrasound work is enlightening.

There is solid gold in that there.

I've been to a number of WSU and OSU deals where they talk about the effect of nutritional plane of grading. The first study was like on 400 pound calves. If you starve 400 pound calves, there is a tremendous difference in the grading on these calves later. They have dialed that clear back to the fetus. If 2 month bred cows lack nutrients, you will see a marked difference in the grading of those calves.

As I remember, it doesn't mean you have to feed super hot feed. You do have to have a good nutritional plane on the cows and the calves to fully express marbling. Yep, you can't starve profit into cattle.

Marbling is hugely genetic as well. I have found I really have to watch my calcium levels on my good marbling cow herd. Marbling and milking are highly correlated.

As far as single trait... Sometimes I think you just want to avoid the bottom half of the breed on a number versus trait benders. When the Zoetis deal came out and had numbers on tenderness, I was pretty excited because of our direct marketing program. When it severely started limiting the bulls I'd use, I paused. We don't get complaints for tough steaks. Hmmmm... I also looked at the MARC research on breed diffeences for tenderness. I am mostly Simangus breeding. Simmentals have a breed advantage with regards to tenderness. So, I decided mostly I want to use tenderness score to keep the worst of the breeds out.

I think that applies to other things as well. Moderate is great. LOL, I have friends who have decided low birth wt may really only mean cattle with shorter gestation periods.

One guy that feeds cattle dispersed his cow heard several years back. He made the comment that a cow heard that works well in the feedlot doesn't necessarily work well for the rancher. Like you said earlier, you have to try and spread the middle without biting yourself in the a$$. You cant have your cake and eat it too, but I sure like to try!