USDA Couldn't Track Their Own Shadow!!!

[Big Muddy rancher]

Oldtimer care to look at my theory that you overlooked. Can you think of a reasoon someone would risk jailtime over 7 head. Stinks on this side of the border. Sure seems ironic that the biggest reason to fight ID here was that the gov. would leak info when it wasn't a health issue but that is the exact thing you want the Canadian gov. to do.

JUST Another case of do as I say not as I do mwj :wink:

Actually I didn't see your post mwj-- No doubt in my mind they could have came across and went where they were supposed to be...Nobodies questioning that...The point is they did not end up where they were supposed to be....And this is supposed to be being done under USDA's strong oversight program... :roll:

All I'm saying is that there are apparently flaws in USDA's system- and before they begin trying to import larger numbers of the high risk cattle in, they better get some answers and their ducks in a row....And I would think Canadians would be bending over backward to help them investigate and find the problem- unless the Rule 2 doesn't really matter to them........

Doesn't any state beside Montana require death loss inspections at their feedlots? All cattle dying in a feedlot must be brand inspected and the tally sent in monthly on death losses.....

OT you keep making the point why brands won't work for a National ID system. Are you seeing the light?
Those tag numbers should be on the import manifests when they crossed the border with where those cattle are from and where they were going. If not they were smuggled in and then the investigation should start with whom ever sold them at the auction. Come on OT where that "paper trail" your always telling us about?

 

[Anonymous]

JUST Another case of do as I say not as I do mwj :wink:

Actually I didn't see your post mwj-- No doubt in my mind they could have came across and went where they were supposed to be...Nobodies questioning that...The point is they did not end up where they were supposed to be....And this is supposed to be being done under USDA's strong oversight program... :roll:

All I'm saying is that there are apparently flaws in USDA's system- and before they begin trying to import larger numbers of the high risk cattle in, they better get some answers and their ducks in a row....And I would think Canadians would be bending over backward to help them investigate and find the problem- unless the Rule 2 doesn't really matter to them........

Doesn't any state beside Montana require death loss inspections at their feedlots? All cattle dying in a feedlot must be brand inspected and the tally sent in monthly on death losses.....

OT you keep making the point why brands won't work for a National ID system. Are you seeing the light?
Those tag numbers should be on the import manifests when they crossed the border with where those cattle are from and where they were going. If not they were smuggled in and then the investigation should start with whom ever sold them at the auction. Come on OT where that "paper trail" your always telling us about?

Yeah- they should be IF USDA was doing its job correct- and IF they came across thru a port legally...They should have been brand inspected too-- but I doubt if thats done in many areas...IF USDA can't keep track of these sealed load and lots feeder cattle-- how in the hell do we espect them to take care of a bunch of old cows and seedstock going everywhere in the country?

This also points out how worthless the tags are...If the SD feeder had noticed the tags and cut them out, or replaced them with his own- no-one would have ever known where they were from- unless they were hot iron branded.....

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Actually I didn't see your post mwj-- No doubt in my mind they could have came across and went where they were supposed to be...Nobodies questioning that...The point is they did not end up where they were supposed to be....And this is supposed to be being done under USDA's strong oversight program... :roll:

All I'm saying is that there are apparently flaws in USDA's system- and before they begin trying to import larger numbers of the high risk cattle in, they better get some answers and their ducks in a row....And I would think Canadians would be bending over backward to help them investigate and find the problem- unless the Rule 2 doesn't really matter to them........

Doesn't any state beside Montana require death loss inspections at their feedlots? All cattle dying in a feedlot must be brand inspected and the tally sent in monthly on death losses.....

OT you keep making the point why brands won't work for a National ID system. Are you seeing the light?
Those tag numbers should be on the import manifests when they crossed the border with where those cattle are from and where they were going. If not they were smuggled in and then the investigation should start with whom ever sold them at the auction. Come on OT where that "paper trail" your always telling us about?

Yeah- they should be IF USDA was doing its job correct- and IF they came across thru a port legally...They should have been brand inspected too-- but I doubt if thats done in many areas...IF USDA can't keep track of these sealed load and lots feeder cattle-- how in the hell do we espect them to take care of a bunch of old cows and seedstock going everywhere in the country?

This also points out how worthless the tags are...If the SD feeder had noticed the tags and cut them out, or replaced them with his own- no-one would have ever known where they were from- unless they were hot iron branded.....

I think you should volunteer your services to get these cattle tracked down. First If those cattle were smuggled across the border the smuggler should go to jail for being STUPID for not cutting out the tags. If the cattle came across legaly they would have been wearing a hot iron brand. When you were sheriff do you stop all traffic in the county if you had one drunk driver?

 

[Anonymous]

OT you keep making the point why brands won't work for a National ID system. Are you seeing the light?
Those tag numbers should be on the import manifests when they crossed the border with where those cattle are from and where they were going. If not they were smuggled in and then the investigation should start with whom ever sold them at the auction. Come on OT where that "paper trail" your always telling us about?

Yeah- they should be IF USDA was doing its job correct- and IF they came across thru a port legally...They should have been brand inspected too-- but I doubt if thats done in many areas...IF USDA can't keep track of these sealed load and lots feeder cattle-- how in the hell do we espect them to take care of a bunch of old cows and seedstock going everywhere in the country?

This also points out how worthless the tags are...If the SD feeder had noticed the tags and cut them out, or replaced them with his own- no-one would have ever known where they were from- unless they were hot iron branded.....

I think you should volunteer your services to get these cattle tracked down. First If those cattle were smuggled across the border the smuggler should go to jail for being STUPID for not cutting out the tags. If the cattle came across legaly they would have been wearing a hot iron brand. When you were sheriff do you stop all traffic in the county if you had one drunk driver?

On the same hand if your having a drunk driver problem- you don't go out and start handing out 6 packs at the 4 corners....Instead they made it illegal to have an open container in your vehicle...Sad day in Montana

We should be tightening the restrictions rather than weakening them- and just because the current program has flaws is definitely not the excuse to weaken them more......

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Yeah- they should be IF USDA was doing its job correct- and IF they came across thru a port legally...They should have been brand inspected too-- but I doubt if thats done in many areas...IF USDA can't keep track of these sealed load and lots feeder cattle-- how in the hell do we espect them to take care of a bunch of old cows and seedstock going everywhere in the country?

This also points out how worthless the tags are...If the SD feeder had noticed the tags and cut them out, or replaced them with his own- no-one would have ever known where they were from- unless they were hot iron branded.....

I think you should volunteer your services to get these cattle tracked down. First If those cattle were smuggled across the border the smuggler should go to jail for being STUPID for not cutting out the tags. If the cattle came across legaly they would have been wearing a hot iron brand. When you were sheriff do you stop all traffic in the county if you had one drunk driver?

On the same hand if your having a drunk driver problem- you don't go out and start handing out 6 packs at the 4 corners....Instead they made it illegal to have an open container in your vehicle...Sad day in Montana

We should be tightening the restrictions rather than weakening them- and just because the current program has flaws is definitely not the excuse to weaken them more......

Wait a minute OT we don't know the current program has flaws because we don't know the rest of the story. I sure don't want you pulling the switch on Old Sparky. You couldn't wait until midnight.

 

[Anonymous]

I think you should volunteer your services to get these cattle tracked down. First If those cattle were smuggled across the border the smuggler should go to jail for being STUPID for not cutting out the tags. If the cattle came across legaly they would have been wearing a hot iron brand. When you were sheriff do you stop all traffic in the county if you had one drunk driver?

On the same hand if your having a drunk driver problem- you don't go out and start handing out 6 packs at the 4 corners....Instead they made it illegal to have an open container in your vehicle...Sad day in Montana

We should be tightening the restrictions rather than weakening them- and just because the current program has flaws is definitely not the excuse to weaken them more......

Wait a minute OT we don't know the current program has flaws because we don't know the rest of the story. I sure don't want you pulling the switch on Old Sparky. You couldn't wait until midnight.

I agree that we need to get the whole story and see what the investigation reveals....But it is quite disturbing to hear that Canada is unwilling to assist us with a "livestock health" issue, by tracking from the Canadian side... Definitely weakens any belief's that Rule 2 could ever work.....

 

[don]

ot this will become a health issue when you can verify that the animals are diseased. isn't that what you want on anaplasmosis and bluetongue???? if the auction mart knows who delivered those cattle the trail back starts there. if you can't trace them back to the border maybe they are american cattle. if the trail starts in canada it could well disappear once the border is crossed because you won't be able to track them on your side and therefore maybe can't even prove they are canadian. you get cornered on these issues all the time because you have supported so many conflicting arguments now that you always end up treeing yourself.

 

[Tam]

On the same hand if your having a drunk driver problem- you don't go out and start handing out 6 packs at the 4 corners....Instead they made it illegal to have an open container in your vehicle...Sad day in Montana

We should be tightening the restrictions rather than weakening them- and just because the current program has flaws is definitely not the excuse to weaken them more......

Wait a minute OT we don't know the current program has flaws because we don't know the rest of the story. I sure don't want you pulling the switch on Old Sparky. You couldn't wait until midnight.

I agree that we need to get the whole story and see what the investigation reveals....But it is quite disturbing to hear that Canada is unwilling to assist us with a "livestock health" issue, by tracking from the Canadian side... Definitely weakens any belief's that Rule 2 could ever work.....

I think you are missing mwj second point, the one that says "Sure seems ironic that the biggest reason to fight ID here was that the gov. would leak info when it wasn't a health issue but that is the exact thing you want the Canadian gov. to do"

Now tell us Oldtimer if you had a system that was only to give out information when a diseased animal is FOUND, not claimed by some over zealous protectionist looking to use anything possible against the idea of a NID system, would you break protocol and release the name of the producer or would stick to protocol and hold the information as promised to your producers until it is proven that those animals indeed were a risk to consumer health?

See this is where you are a pig stuck in the mud. First you claim the reason you don't want a US ID system is the information would be handed out to anyone asking because of your right of information laws. Well here in Canada we have a PRIVACY LAW. AS a DEP-PEW-TY of law would you have us break a law to help someone out when they are not willing to help themselves out by doing the time wasting paper trail investigation that you claim has worked for a hundred years and still works today?

Just an add note here
I googled this story and do you want to know where I found it. A Web site called www.noanimalid.com. They were using it to promote the idea that the US doesn't need an ID system. want to know what their next story would sound like if we gave you the information.

Government says information is held in confidence but all it took is one request from the USDA to get the CFIA to break their promise to Canadian producers and hand over the information. Can we trust the same will not happen to us if the USDA is requested to give out our identities when there is no health risk involved. Say no to animal ID as these seven feeders proved the information you give will not be held in confidence.

No matter what the CFIA does they are going to get shirt on by the US producers. If they don't give the information up they have you saying well what good is your system to us and if they do give the information to the USDA they will have you using it to prove the information is not kept in confidence. You claim your paper trail system works PROVE IT.

 

[Anonymous]

Tam- Even bank/ financial/ telephone/ personal/ medical records are available with a search warrent or investigative subpeona when investigating a crime...Even the President of the United States is not above subpeona power- that was part of the fallacy of the NAIS proposal....
In the US a crime has been committed- also to us BSE is a "health risk" and poses a danger in not knowing how many more cattle may be involved.... I know Canadians would rather stick their head in the sand about BSE and think its not....

Thats the fallacy of this free trade with NAFTA- we are two seperate countries with two seperate sets of values and laws....This has been shown many times with Canada's harboring of Draft Dodgers and murder suspects...
Before we go expanding these BSE rules we need to find out if Canada is actually committed to working with us on protecting the US consumer and cattle herd.....And it appears so far they aren't....

 

[don]

when you can show that these animals were, in fact, diseased i'm sure you'll get lots of cooperation. if this sale really did happen then by now cfia knows when and where the tags were bought and who registered them. show that these animals were diseased and a traceback is required and cfia will probably help to do what usda can't as was done with the washington cow. until then cfia is fully justified in keeping the information confidential. i would have thought an incident such as this would have attracted more attention.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Tam- Even bank/ financial/ telephone/ personal records are available with a search warrent or investigative subpeona when investigating a crime...Even the President of the United States is not above subpeona power- that was part of the fallacy of the NAIS proposal....
In the US a crime has been committed- also to us BSE is a "health risk" and poses a danger in not knowing how many more cattle may be involved.... I know Canadians would rather stick their head in the sand about BSE and think its not....

Thats the fallacy of this free trade with NAFTA- we are two seperate countries with two seperate sets of values and laws....This has been shown many times with Canada's harboring of Draft Dodgers and murder suspects...
Before we go expanding these BSE rules we need to find out if Canada is actually committed to working with us.....And it appears so far they aren't....

OT our ID program was set up for health trace backs. Producers wanted it that way. Then when set up producers strated to realize that it could be used for more but because if resistance to the program the health staus of the program remained the focus. If cattle are found with a tag CCIA can be contacted by a brand inspector or CFIA offical and then the producer whose number that is will be contacted not tyhe person holding the cattle. What is the hold up on who brought these cattle to the auction? They are the ones breaking the law. Maybe they were stolen out of some feedlot. A "Real" lawman would like to see that stopped.

 

[Anonymous]

when you can show that these animals were, in fact, diseased i'm sure you'll get lots of cooperation. if this sale really did happen then by now cfia knows when and where the tags were bought and who registered them. show that these animals were diseased and a traceback is required and cfia will probably help to do what usda can't as was done with the washington cow. until then cfia is fully justified in keeping the information confidential. i would have thought an incident such as this would have attracted more attention.

don- Its kind of like the incident with the USDA employee that was sending out terrorist threats to anti M-ID groups--USDA with their cribs full of P/R and media people kept that pretty quiet too-- until Congress and some of the press picked up on it...

I'm sure that USDA doesn't want to publicize their flaws in the system- not right now when they are pushing so hard for the Rule 2-- but I see today it is getting out into the media...And I know the House and Senate are now aware..... :wink:

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

when you can show that these animals were, in fact, diseased i'm sure you'll get lots of cooperation. if this sale really did happen then by now cfia knows when and where the tags were bought and who registered them. show that these animals were diseased and a traceback is required and cfia will probably help to do what usda can't as was done with the washington cow. until then cfia is fully justified in keeping the information confidential. i would have thought an incident such as this would have attracted more attention.

don- Its kind of like the incident with the USDA employee that was sending out terrorist threats to anti M-ID groups--USDA with their cribs full of P/R and media people kept that pretty quiet too-- until Congress and some of the press picked up on it...

I'm sure that USDA doesn't want to publicize their flaws in the system- not right now when they are pushing so hard for the Rule 2-- but I see today it is getting out into the media...And I know the House and Senate are now aware..... :wink:

OT is there any "News" or are they just repeating the same old story? Nothing much show up on Google.

 

[don]

pretty vague little parable from rick fox. i hope when ot e-mailed the people in washington he was able to supply something more substantive. when did this happen ot?

 

[Anonymous]

pretty vague little parable from rick fox. i hope when ot e-mailed the people in washington he was able to supply something more substantive. when did this happen ot?

don- it sounds like its been over a month now-- and that Canada is not cooperating...Thats all the story I'm getting right now- so I hope the folks in Congress can get us some more answers.....Like I said I'm sure USDA is trying to operate their normal mode of propoganda and hoping nothing negative gets out (our taxpayer dollars at work again :roll: )...And I just came from town- and its got a lot of folks stirred, so apparently the word has got out.....

I can't for the life of me see why that the fellow in charge of the Canuck ID system hasn't looked up the person or persons the ID tags belong to--called them up and went out to have coffee with them-- told them what is happening-- and asked them to give a waiver of privacy in this instance and 99.5 chances out of 100 they aren't involved and have no idea whats happening and would cooperate... Did it hundreds of times in investigations- and it sure saved time, paperwork and hard feelings...If they don't- then I begin wondering and start looking at the search warrent and investigative subpeona method....

The way it looks now is that the Canadians ID system for use as to importing to the US/protecting the US interests is worthless- and we definitely should not proceed with any expansions until we have some new plan.....

 

[Bill]

pretty vague little parable from rick fox. i hope when ot e-mailed the people in washington he was able to supply something more substantive. when did this happen ot?

don- it sounds like its been over a month now-- and that Canada is not cooperating...Thats all the story I'm getting right now- so I hope the folks in Congress can get us some more answers.....Like I said I'm sure USDA is trying to operate their normal mode of propoganda and hoping nothing negative gets out (our taxpayer dollars at work again :roll: )...And I just came from town- and its got a lot of folks stirred, so apparently the word has got out.....

I can't for the life of me see why that the fellow in charge of the Canuck ID system hasn't looked up the person or persons the ID tags belong to--called them up and went out to have coffee with them-- told them what is happening-- and asked them to give a waiver of privacy in this instance and 99.5 chances out of 100 they aren't involved and have no idea whats happening and would cooperate... Did it hundreds of times in investigations- and it sure saved time, paperwork and hard feelings...If they don't- then I begin wondering and start looking at the search warrent and investigative subpeona method....

The way it looks now is that the Canadians ID system for use as to importing to the US/protecting the US interests is worthless- and we definitely should not proceed with any expansions until we have some new plan.....

In other words Oldtimer you once again know jack$&%T.

And I just came from town- and its got a lot of folks stirred, so apparently the word has got out.....

Pretty much sums up how you R-Klanners operate doesn't it?

 

[mwj]

Tam- Even bank/ financial/ telephone/ personal/ medical records are available with a search warrent or investigative subpeona when investigating a crime...Even the President of the United States is not above subpeona power- that was part of the fallacy of the NAIS proposal....
In the US a crime has been committed- also to us BSE is a "health risk" and poses a danger in not knowing how many more cattle may be involved.... I know Canadians would rather stick their head in the sand about BSE and think its not....

Thats the fallacy of this free trade with NAFTA- we are two seperate countries with two seperate sets of values and laws....This has been shown many times with Canada's harboring of Draft Dodgers and murder suspects...
Before we go expanding these BSE rules we need to find out if Canada is actually committed to working with us on protecting the US consumer and cattle herd.....And it appears so far they aren't....

Has anyone made an official request for help from the canadian gov.? Maybe you could just give us the name of that poor feeder who was wronged and we could help him start a search for answers! You wouldn't mind if a little confidential info. was passed out since it is a health threat to ALL us poor Americans wood you? Do the proper thing OT and give us his name so we can help him out since the USDA has refused to help :roll:

 

[S.S.A.P.]

Yep you're right Bill ...

Lone star Dick has this case all wrapped up even though he isn't part of the investigation. Any minute now he and Mr Fox will be providing the names of the American feeder, auction ring, livestock inspector, trucker and consignor because they have signed a waiver of privacy and have no idea whats happening and would cooperate.

 

[Anonymous]

Yep you're right Bill ...

Lone star Dick has this case all wrapped up even though he isn't part of the investigation. Any minute now he and Mr Fox will be providing the names of the American feeder, auction ring, livestock inspector, trucker and consignor because they have signed a waiver of privacy and have no idea whats happening and would cooperate.

And I suppose you and Bill just want to stick your heads in the sand and not know anything-- seems like that has become the Canuck answer to everything :roll:

Hopefully Congress and the media will make the USDA come up with some info- don't need names or anything- just some particulars on how such a thing could occur- and how they plan to correct it...Hopefully they have all the answers and its a simple mistake and easily corrected flaw-- but thats the problem with government organizations when they aren't open and transparent.... And USDA's past record has not helped lead to a feeling of trust with them......

But over a month-- and like I said, word on the street is that Canada refuses to cooperate :roll: ... Not good for someone trying to expand their exports....Seems to me like some Canadian supposed "leaders in the cattle industry" would be putting out something to the contrary if this is wrong........

 

[Bill]

Yep you're right Bill ...

Lone star Dick has this case all wrapped up even though he isn't part of the investigation. Any minute now he and Mr Fox will be providing the names of the American feeder, auction ring, livestock inspector, trucker and consignor because they have signed a waiver of privacy and have no idea whats happening and would cooperate.

And I suppose you and Bill just want to stick your heads in the sand and not know anything-- seems like that has become the Canuck answer to everything :roll:

Hopefully Congress and the media will make the USDA come up with some info- don't need names or anything- just some particulars on how such a thing could occur- and how they plan to correct it...Hopefully they have all the answers and its a simple mistake and easily corrected flaw-- but thats the problem with government organizations when they aren't open and transparent.... And USDA's past record has not helped lead to a feeling of trust with them......

But over a month-- and like I said, word on the street is that Canada refuses to cooperate :roll: ... Not good for someone trying to expand their exports....Seems to me like some Canadian supposed "leaders in the cattle industry" would be putting out something to the contrary if this is wrong........

Stick our heads in the sand? :lol: :lol: :lol: The truth is Oldtimer that you are a lot like the boy who cried wolf.

Same old R-Klan BS game that you and the rest of the R-Klowns like to play. Float some crap that you heard "on the street" or while you were babbling in the bar with your "sources" and then expect someone to prove it wrong. I suppose we should actually be thanking you though for once again showing everyone what makes an R-Klanner tick.