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Wet Land Problems

T

Trinity man

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
1,259
Location
Guy Store, Texas
I have a neighbor that has dammed up a creek and put a small culvert at the top. He has told me that he is going to make it a wet land for duck hunting. I told him that if he backs one oz of water on me that there will be trouble. We had the creek dug out starting on our place and going about a mile down through his place years ago when his grandfather owned the place. I told my dad that if I can't stop them I will use the water for irrigation of our own fields until the water goes below our fence line. Has anyone had this problem with anyone? We have worked so hard in keeping our places drained and now the nut wants to back water up.
 
I have the opposite problem-farmers pulling out beaver dams so my cows have no water, digging ditches under line fences etc. When you get anybody just thinking about themselves and not others it gets messy at times.
 
This guy is trying to sell the place, but hasn't had any takers yet. So now he is going to try duck and deer hunting by day leases. His grandfather was a very rich man so the only reason I see him doing any of this is because he has ran through the money.
 
I'd check into wether he even has a right to use the water that way. Out here we all have to have water rights registered with the state of Utah. A water right covers very specificly the amount of acrerage to be watered, any dwellings supplied and even stock water. A creek can cross land and the person that owns the land cannot use the water at all without a right to it if someone down stream owns the water. Good luck. There has been more fights and killings over water in this country than there ever was over gold!
 
leanin' H said:
I'd check into wether he even has a right to use the water that way. Out here we all have to have water rights registered with the state of Utah. A water right covers very specificly the amount of acrerage to be watered, any dwellings supplied and even stock water. A creek can cross land and the person that owns the land cannot use the water at all without a right to it if someone down stream owns the water. Good luck. There has been more fights and killings over water in this country than there ever was over gold!
Click to expand...

You should see H and the Mrs. fighting over who gets the bath water first on Saturday night. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
here it is illegal to back water onto another or to irrigate, and run your water off onto a neighbor with out putting it through diversions and buffers...

water is a tricky thing to legislate.
 
Trinity man said:
I have a neighbor that has dammed up a creek and put a small culvert at the top. He has told me that he is going to make it a wet land for duck hunting. I told him that if he backs one oz of water on me that there will be trouble. We had the creek dug out starting on our place and going about a mile down through his place years ago when his grandfather owned the place. I told my dad that if I can't stop them I will use the water for irrigation of our own fields until the water goes below our fence line. Has anyone had this problem with anyone? We have worked so hard in keeping our places drained and now the nut wants to back water up.
Click to expand...

Trinity,,I would call a Lawyer,Im pretty sure once your Lawyer sends him a registered letter stating consequences he will forget the backing up water deal.
good luck
 
Trinity find the Army Corps of Engineers website and read what it has to say about screwing around with ANY stream or river. It will make you afraid to even stick a shovel in a stream. Had a neighbor with a little trickle of water on his place that decided he was going to make a pond. Another neighbor decided it would harm him and called the Corps of Engineers. They told the pond guy to put it back EXACTLY the way it had been or face some hellish fines. Cost them a ton of money before it was done. Any trickle of water is considered wetlands and you do not screw with it though lots of people do and don't get caught.
 
East Texas is totally different than any state or like West Texas even, but Soil Conservation is the place to go with it. In our case they made ponds above us and stopped the creek up...it runs but not like it did when I was younger. We do not have rights like Colorado and WY, we do not have to register anything... Now I do know if the opposite were true and someone went in to drain the wetlands that they would get pounced on, that is messing with Federal protected lands now in Texas..if the Wildlife people know you have that on your property, you are doomed to keep it like that. Neighbor has already gone through that. Good Luck with your issue. Love my East Texas, but hate that we have such a hard time with city dwellers trying to change what works.

East Texas Gal.... ;) ( In the Woods of Livingston area, but living in WY working)
 
Trinity man said:
I have a neighbor that has dammed up a creek and put a small culvert at the top. He has told me that he is going to make it a wet land for duck hunting. I told him that if he backs one oz of water on me that there will be trouble. We had the creek dug out starting on our place and going about a mile down through his place years ago when his grandfather owned the place. I told my dad that if I can't stop them I will use the water for irrigation of our own fields until the water goes below our fence line. Has anyone had this problem with anyone? We have worked so hard in keeping our places drained and now the nut wants to back water up.
Click to expand...

I am a lawyer in Texas, and it is illegal to change the natural flow of water. He cannot dig a ditch that diverts your runoff, and he can not damn a creek that will prevent you from getting the water, or cutting you off from it.

The NRCS is DEFINITELY the place to call about it. We have multiple Ducks Unlimited Projects on our place, and it was like pulling teeth to get permission to build them, and we had alot of engineering help from DU, and Texas Parks & Wildlife.

NRCS is a double edged sword though, if you turn them onto him, they are going to look everywhere...they find the smallest things to complain about. Do you have a buffer zone around that live creek? We cant have cow turds getting into clean water....

The NRCS can be very helpful, but they can be a huge pain. Its best to tread lightly....I think if you make him appropriately size that relief culvert, or make a spillway that is large enough to divert the water back approriately, he could do what he wants without harming you.

Ducks are big business....in my area, I can get $5000/season per hole, and I can put 2 holes on every 100acers of flooded pasture....it does not take long for 300 acres to pay itself off.
 
marksmu said:
Trinity man said:
I have a neighbor that has dammed up a creek and put a small culvert at the top. He has told me that he is going to make it a wet land for duck hunting. I told him that if he backs one oz of water on me that there will be trouble. We had the creek dug out starting on our place and going about a mile down through his place years ago when his grandfather owned the place. I told my dad that if I can't stop them I will use the water for irrigation of our own fields until the water goes below our fence line. Has anyone had this problem with anyone? We have worked so hard in keeping our places drained and now the nut wants to back water up.
Click to expand...

I am a lawyer in Texas, and it is illegal to change the natural flow of water. He cannot dig a ditch that diverts your runoff, and he can not damn a creek that will prevent you from getting the water, or cutting you off from it.

The NRCS is DEFINITELY the place to call about it. We have multiple Ducks Unlimited Projects on our place, and it was like pulling teeth to get permission to build them, and we had alot of engineering help from DU, and Texas Parks & Wildlife.

NRCS is a double edged sword though, if you turn them onto him, they are going to look everywhere...they find the smallest things to complain about. Do you have a buffer zone around that live creek? We cant have cow turds getting into clean water....

The NRCS can be very helpful, but they can be a huge pain. Its best to tread lightly....I think if you make him appropriately size that relief culvert, or make a spillway that is large enough to divert the water back approriately, he could do what he wants without harming you.

Ducks are big business....in my area, I can get $5000/season per hole, and I can put 2 holes on every 100acers of flooded pasture....it does not take long for 300 acres to pay itself off.
Click to expand...


First Off I agree with Marksmu's first paragraph. You can not in Texas divert water on your property or change the natural flow to where it causes any affect to neighbors. If flow is diverted, it has to re-enter its natural channel BEFORE leaving your property.

Now then, Marksmu's 3rd paragraph is just inaccurate. NRCS being a double edged sword in the fact that "if you turn them onto him, they are going to look everywhere...they find the smallest things to complain about" is not true at all. The NRCS can not and will not go onto your neighbors property unless HE asks them to. NRCS is there to help property owners and support them with conservation practices to better their land and objectives. NRCS is NOT a regulatory agency at all and so will not go out to someones place and police their activities. In fact anything that looks like it would lead to litigation NRCS usually will stay far away from it. NRCS does do engineering designs for ponds, etc, but they are usually tied to a program and anything involved with ponding up a live creek (especially if it is a named creek or solid blue line on a topo map) won't happen or shouldn't happen without the proper permits required.

To be honest Trinity Man, the NRCS maybe be able to give you some local advice and lead you in the direction you need to head in to tackle this problem, but they are not the ones to fix or regulate your problem.

In my opinion you need to contact the Texas Commission on Evironmental Quality (TCEQ) http://www.tceq.state.tx.us/

They, unlike the NRCS, are a regulatory agency and would have more information on the requirements needed to pond up a creek. Typically permits are required if it is a named creek or solid blue line on a topo map...those are usually indicators but not always.

Also as Jersey mentioned contacting the local Soil and Water Conservation District would just be another source, but then again they have no real authority on this matter and wouldn't be able to help you anymore than tell you to call or talk to someone else. They are not going to regulate and enforce something like this either. Although if he is doing something illegal they would support you I'm sure.

Frankly unless he is violating some Texas law there might not be much you can do about what he is doing as long as he don't push water on you. The right of capture and what is considered state water and your water and it gets confusing. This is kind of an informative power point: http://waterquality.okstate.edu/oldsite/EVENTS/WaterForum/RKaiser1.pdf

All I can say is to do your research before you act and If you feel you want a lawyer I'd be sure to get one that is well versed on the Texas Water Law.

Just my thoughts.
 
Thanks a bunch guys and gals. I called the Soil and water conservation office today and they told me he can't back up water past my fence without our permission. If he try, I will have to take him to court but its pretty cut and dry that I would win.

Don't get me wrong I love duck, deer, and hog hunting. Here is an aerial photo of the place. The creek he is wanting to dam up is at the front part of our place where woods are on the North and south side of us. If you can zoom in you can see it.

Our_Ranches1.jpg


The orange line is the property line.
 
Still comes down to the Conservation Service, if I hadn't already been through this.. East Texas is just a different animal. Politics and who you know ...just saying! And my family has been here for more generations than I want to know on my mothers side. These ponds were built last 20 yrs...and they do stop the flow and it was allowed. Times have changed, I will admit that now, we have grown a lot around the Livingston area with retirees moving in from Houston. I like being in the sticks, but I do feel them moving in on us as well. Reason I am in heaven here in WY, it feels like what home use to be. Good luck with your issue and hope that you get it taken care of without making an enemy of a neighbor.
 
TXTibbs said:
marksmu said:
Trinity man said:
I have a neighbor that has dammed up a creek and put a small culvert at the top. He has told me that he is going to make it a wet land for duck hunting. I told him that if he backs one oz of water on me that there will be trouble. We had the creek dug out starting on our place and going about a mile down through his place years ago when his grandfather owned the place. I told my dad that if I can't stop them I will use the water for irrigation of our own fields until the water goes below our fence line. Has anyone had this problem with anyone? We have worked so hard in keeping our places drained and now the nut wants to back water up.
Click to expand...

I am a lawyer in Texas, and it is illegal to change the natural flow of water. He cannot dig a ditch that diverts your runoff, and he can not damn a creek that will prevent you from getting the water, or cutting you off from it.

The NRCS is DEFINITELY the place to call about it. We have multiple Ducks Unlimited Projects on our place, and it was like pulling teeth to get permission to build them, and we had alot of engineering help from DU, and Texas Parks & Wildlife.

NRCS is a double edged sword though, if you turn them onto him, they are going to look everywhere...they find the smallest things to complain about. Do you have a buffer zone around that live creek? We cant have cow turds getting into clean water....

The NRCS can be very helpful, but they can be a huge pain. Its best to tread lightly....I think if you make him appropriately size that relief culvert, or make a spillway that is large enough to divert the water back approriately, he could do what he wants without harming you.

Ducks are big business....in my area, I can get $5000/season per hole, and I can put 2 holes on every 100acers of flooded pasture....it does not take long for 300 acres to pay itself off.
Click to expand...



Now then, Marksmu's 3rd paragraph is just inaccurate. NRCS being a double edged sword in the fact that "if you turn them onto him, they are going to look everywhere...they find the smallest things to complain about" is not true at all. The NRCS can not and will not go onto your neighbors property unless HE asks them to. NRCS is there to help property owners and support them with conservation practices to better their land and objectives. NRCS is NOT a regulatory agency at all and so will not go out to someones place and police their activities. In fact anything that looks like it would lead to litigation NRCS usually will stay far away from it. NRCS does do engineering designs for ponds, etc, but they are usually tied to a program and anything involved with ponding up a live creek (especially if it is a named creek or solid blue line on a topo map) won't happen or shouldn't happen without the proper permits required.


Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...

I should have been more clear. The NRCS can stop them cold in their tracks IF, and its a big IF, they take any FSA payments.

When you sign up and agree to receive FSA payments, then you grant the NRCS the right to enter and inspect your property.

You also agree to allow them to control a lot of the things that you normally would not allow.

If you are messing with water, and you receive FSA payments of any kind then you have to ask permission and get a study done on everything....there is a whole nother mess of rules if the land is categorized as wetlands, or farmed wetlands.

But I do agree with the above statement to get a lawyer well versed in water rights...they are changing CONSTANTLY and are difficult to keep up with.
 
marksmu said:
TXTibbs said:
marksmu said:
I am a lawyer in Texas, and it is illegal to change the natural flow of water. He cannot dig a ditch that diverts your runoff, and he can not damn a creek that will prevent you from getting the water, or cutting you off from it.

The NRCS is DEFINITELY the place to call about it. We have multiple Ducks Unlimited Projects on our place, and it was like pulling teeth to get permission to build them, and we had alot of engineering help from DU, and Texas Parks & Wildlife.

NRCS is a double edged sword though, if you turn them onto him, they are going to look everywhere...they find the smallest things to complain about. Do you have a buffer zone around that live creek? We cant have cow turds getting into clean water....

The NRCS can be very helpful, but they can be a huge pain. Its best to tread lightly....I think if you make him appropriately size that relief culvert, or make a spillway that is large enough to divert the water back approriately, he could do what he wants without harming you.

Ducks are big business....in my area, I can get $5000/season per hole, and I can put 2 holes on every 100acers of flooded pasture....it does not take long for 300 acres to pay itself off.
Click to expand...



Now then, Marksmu's 3rd paragraph is just inaccurate. NRCS being a double edged sword in the fact that "if you turn them onto him, they are going to look everywhere...they find the smallest things to complain about" is not true at all. The NRCS can not and will not go onto your neighbors property unless HE asks them to. NRCS is there to help property owners and support them with conservation practices to better their land and objectives. NRCS is NOT a regulatory agency at all and so will not go out to someones place and police their activities. In fact anything that looks like it would lead to litigation NRCS usually will stay far away from it. NRCS does do engineering designs for ponds, etc, but they are usually tied to a program and anything involved with ponding up a live creek (especially if it is a named creek or solid blue line on a topo map) won't happen or shouldn't happen without the proper permits required.


Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...

I should have been more clear. The NRCS can stop them cold in their tracks IF, and its a big IF, they take any FSA payments.

When you sign up and agree to receive FSA payments, then you grant the NRCS the right to enter and inspect your property.

You also agree to allow them to control a lot of the things that you normally would not allow.

If you are messing with water, and you receive FSA payments of any kind then you have to ask permission and get a study done on everything....there is a whole nother mess of rules if the land is categorized as wetlands, or farmed wetlands.

But I do agree with the above statement to get a lawyer well versed in water rights...they are changing CONSTANTLY and are difficult to keep up with.
Click to expand...

If your going to receive free money through a government subsidy payment then don't you agree that you should adhere to some sort of rules and agree to certain terms to manage your land in accordance? If people don't like being told how they can manage their land then they don't need to accept the payment. The requirements are not that outrageously difficult to adhere to or comply with.
 

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