What do you want your seedstock producer to do to help you?

[frenchie]

...............is still in the stone age.

That maybe ,but he is a still ahead of you...

A still ahead of me? How would you know? :wink:

Very easy those that can,t compete, critcize those that can. :wink:

 

[Mike]

That maybe ,but he is a still ahead of you...

A still ahead of me? How would you know? :wink:

Very easy those that can,t compete, critcize those that can. :wink:

Like I asked. How would you know I can't compete? Different market, my buyers are aggressive cattlemen. Don't want to compete with the "stone age" bulls. It's no challenge. :wink:

 

[frenchie]

A still ahead of me? How would you know? :wink:

Very easy those that can,t compete, critcize those that can. :wink:

Like I asked. How would you know I can't compete? Different market, my buyers are aggressive cattlemen. Don't want to compete with the "stone age" bulls. It's no challenge. :wink:

Whats matter Mike you scared that ,Pharo might show you up.Tell me are your buyers working for their cattle or are their cattle working for them.

 

[BRG]

Frenchie, just a quick question, have you ever seen the Pharo Cattle? Becaues I have, and it is not the typ of cattle any of my customers want. We forage raise all of our 2 year old bulls and they are very easy keeping, but still have some growth. Our cows definetely work for us. We winter graze and don't give them any supplement at all. If they can't hack it they are gone.

 

[Jinglebob]

BRG
Send me your email by pm please. You sound like the kind of cattleman I want tobuy bulls from. Thanks

 

[Denny]

HONEST CATTLE thats what they can do for me if they hide the feed tanks over the hill then say they dont grain the cows or hide the creep feeders.To me thats not honest.

If your cattle are the right kind they will sell themselves but you need to offer the type of bulls that will garner top money with no strings always remember your a rancher not a banker.Usally the payment plans are hard to collect on and will wreck friendships faster than anything.

Also how sharp are their knives do they cut any calves there are some out there that think every bull calf is a herd bull just because he looks good on paper doesnt make em good..

Denny, I agree with you for the most part. There is a trade-off between developing good pasture-hard bulls and developing them to their top genetic potential. There is usually some point in the development stage that the seedstock producer has to put 'em on some feed, might be due to seasonal changes, drought periods, etc. Feeding is not always dishonest.

What I wish the commercial bull buyer would do is get more interested in watching the bulls as they develop. How can anyone POSSIBLY pick a bull as a 2-year old and tell what the calves will look like? Most of the bull buyers down here market calves as weaned or pre-conditioned. Yet they only see the bulls they buy as 2-year olds.

I have kept a couple of calves that I probably should'nt have at weaning, put them on feed in the fall when there is no grazing yet and they turned out to be the best looking of the bunch. When the buyer mentioned that the calves weren't what he expected, I reminded him that when he bought them I explained to him that those bulls would have made him more money if he had fed the calves vs. selling as weanlings.

Point is; many bull buyers go to a sale an hour beforehand, pick out the biggest, thickest ones in the sale, pay too much, and then complain.
No one bull can be "all things to all people", but if he is the best looking at 2 years, they think he is.

My most satisfied customers have been the one's that give me a call and ask me to deliver them a bull without ever seeing him. It takes some homework on my part, but no one knows a bull better than the man that raised him. Being honest doesn't hurt either.

So what you are saying is the bulls grew slow till weaning then split a hide after that point.Around here most everyone sells feeder calves so You would have just lost a customer or more likely more than one.Bad reputations travel FAST I would cut bulls in the spring then in the fall cut some more then in the spring cut any that suck nothing worse than a REGISTERED SEEDSTOCK producer with a DULL KNIFE.. :wink: :wink:

 

[Northern Rancher]

Here's a fun thing to do-buy about a 100 of those dollar scalpels then drive around mailing them to purebred guys from their biggest competitors home towns-makes life more interesting lol.

 

[frenchie]

Frenchie, just a quick question, have you ever seen the Pharo Cattle? Becaues I have, and it is not the typ of cattle any of my customers want. We forage raise all of our 2 year old bulls and they are very easy keeping, but still have some growth. Our cows definetely work for us. We winter graze and don't give them any supplement at all. If they can't hack it they are gone.

Yes I have...do I think Pharo knows it all of course not. There are other people that produce good cattle on forage as well.He was just a well known example.I have a friend who has used his stock and is happy.But it all depends want you are trying to do.

 

[BRG]

OK, I will agree with that.

 

[Soapweed]

Here are my thoughts on the Kit Pharo method of low input ranching, written back on January 25, 2004.

Recently my wife and I had opportunity to attend a talk given by Kit Pharo. He suggests that "low input" ranching has more potential to be profitable than does ranching with higher costs of production. The talk was interesting and informative, and the concept works for him. However, after much head scratching and pondering, I am not quite willing to give up many of the standard traditions which we presently employee in our ranching.

Kit infers that he can raise a calf for $270 per year, and any money over and above that figure is profit. That may work in his Colorado country, but it doesn't here in the Nebraska Sandhills. For starters, the going rate for summer pasture in this area is $30 per pair (cow and calf) per month. Whether a rancher is putting out cattle by the month or taking them in, this is an "opportunity cost" that must be considered. As summer should be the cheapest time to run cattle, the other months are understandingly more expensive. By using the $30 per month figure and multiplying this by twelve months in a year, it looks like the very minimum cost per cow per year would be $360. This doesn't include any other expenses such as taxes, fencing and windmill upkeep, pickup repair, machinery costs, salt and mineral, etc.

The Pharo philosophy maintains that a 50,000 pound pot-load of 400 pound calves is worth more dollars than a 50,000 pound pot-load of 600 pound calves. This could be debateable. A small-framed calf weighing 400 pounds might be at the same stage of his life as is a moderate-framed calf at 600 pounds. There might me less growth potential on the small-framed calf than there is on the bigger-framed 600 pounder, and consequently not as efficient and as good an investment as the bigger calf.

As a rancher that puts out cattle by the month, I get more bang for the buck having a larger cow nursing a larger earlier calf. Pasture rates seem to be the same regardless of cattle size. It seems to me that a calf born on March 1st will weigh substantially more by October 15th than will a calf born on April 1st weighed on November 15th. This is considering that both examples are still sucking their mothers by the fall weaning dates. A May 1st calf weighed on December 15th would not even be in the ball-park. I think it has to do with the earlier calf being more adapted to grazing the summer grasses, and the fact that the pastures dry up and are of poorer quality in the fall.

In these days of fairly cheap interest on money borrowed from financial lending institutions, fast turn-over is not as important as at other times. In times of high interest, the quicker a person can retrieve a pay-check from their investment the better. In other words, a big calf for sale at weaning time can sell well and bring in optimum money. A May or June calf would have to be held over until the following year before there is enough weight to sell for many dollars. Consequently more interest owed is a negative on the bank statement.

My philosophy is to always keep my cattle "saleable." In the low-input system, there is much of the year when the cows are just barely getting by and are too thin to be of much value to a potential buyer. In the event of a bad winter, this thin condition could be life-threatening. I figure that if at any time my cows are worth top dollar to a potential buyer, they are also worth that to me.

Kit says that if a person makes ranching easier, there is more time to spend at the coffee shops (or maybe piddling with the "bull session" on the internet, lol!). Soon the coffee shops and the bull session will not be exciting enough, and the bored person will be finding thrills at a local casino. Next thing you know, the ranch will be gambled away, and it won't matter what size of a calf you raise. Maybe it is more desirable to stay busy in the first place, spend time in the calving barn, and try to raise the biggest meatiest highest quality calf you can, then sell it for the most money available. These are just some thoughts in trying to justify all the "mistakes" I've been making all my life. Cheers.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I did the big calf thing for ten or twelve years-in facxt our last set of Jan. calves averaged 798 the end of August the last ten or twelve years we';ve been calving in May-doing the 'kit' I'd never go back-I can't believe anybody would pay $1.00 U.S a day for grazing-I guess up here were dumb and thrifty. As far as marketing there are way more options with a 450 weight calf than the big early calf your pretty much stuck with -straight to the feedlot no matter what cost of gain is. We spread our marketings out throughout the year-some placed at weaning-some in spring-some off grass etc. I'd place our cattle somewhere size wise between yours and Kits I'm guessing as for thin cattle not being saleable-I have no trouble selling breeding stock in their working clothes-my REPEAT customers tell me they only look better after we get them home. I always thought the Sandhills would be a low input place to ranch but not with those kind of pasture rents.

 

[SASH]

Here are my thoughts on the Kit Pharo method of low input ranching, written back on January 25, 2004.

Recently my wife and I had opportunity to attend a talk given by Kit Pharo. He suggests that "low input" ranching has more potential to be profitable than does ranching with higher costs of production. The talk was interesting and informative, and the concept works for him. However, after much head scratching and pondering, I am not quite willing to give up many of the standard traditions which we presently employee in our ranching.

Kit infers that he can raise a calf for $270 per year, and any money over and above that figure is profit. That may work in his Colorado country, but it doesn't here in the Nebraska Sandhills. For starters, the going rate for summer pasture in this area is $30 per pair (cow and calf) per month. Whether a rancher is putting out cattle by the month or taking them in, this is an "opportunity cost" that must be considered. As summer should be the cheapest time to run cattle, the other months are understandingly more expensive. By using the $30 per month figure and multiplying this by twelve months in a year, it looks like the very minimum cost per cow per year would be $360. This doesn't include any other expenses such as taxes, fencing and windmill upkeep, pickup repair, machinery costs, salt and mineral, etc.

The Pharo philosophy maintains that a 50,000 pound pot-load of 400 pound calves is worth more dollars than a 50,000 pound pot-load of 600 pound calves. This could be debateable. A small-framed calf weighing 400 pounds might be at the same stage of his life as is a moderate-framed calf at 600 pounds. There might me less growth potential on the small-framed calf than there is on the bigger-framed 600 pounder, and consequently not as efficient and as good an investment as the bigger calf.

As a rancher that puts out cattle by the month, I get more bang for the buck having a larger cow nursing a larger earlier calf. Pasture rates seem to be the same regardless of cattle size. It seems to me that a calf born on March 1st will weigh substantially more by October 15th than will a calf born on April 1st weighed on November 15th. This is considering that both examples are still sucking their mothers by the fall weaning dates. A May 1st calf weighed on December 15th would not even be in the ball-park. I think it has to do with the earlier calf being more adapted to grazing the summer grasses, and the fact that the pastures dry up and are of poorer quality in the fall.

In these days of fairly cheap interest on money borrowed from financial lending institutions, fast turn-over is not as important as at other times. In times of high interest, the quicker a person can retrieve a pay-check from their investment the better. In other words, a big calf for sale at weaning time can sell well and bring in optimum money. A May or June calf would have to be held over until the following year before there is enough weight to sell for many dollars. Consequently more interest owed is a negative on the bank statement.

My philosophy is to always keep my cattle "saleable." In the low-input system, there is much of the year when the cows are just barely getting by and are too thin to be of much value to a potential buyer. In the event of a bad winter, this thin condition could be life-threatening. I figure that if at any time my cows are worth top dollar to a potential buyer, they are also worth that to me.

Kit says that if a person makes ranching easier, there is more time to spend at the coffee shops (or maybe piddling with the "bull session" on the internet, lol!). Soon the coffee shops and the bull session will not be exciting enough, and the bored person will be finding thrills at a local casino. Next thing you know, the ranch will be gambled away, and it won't matter what size of a calf you raise. Maybe it is more desirable to stay busy in the first place, spend time in the calving barn, and try to raise the biggest meatiest highest quality calf you can, then sell it for the most money available. These are just some thoughts in trying to justify all the "mistakes" I've been making all my life. Cheers.

I think I disagree with you. However, I don't live in Nebraska or Colorado. Alot of producers up here have moved to March and April calving specifically because they aren't getting the growth in the winter that the calves can put on first thing in the spring. However, I don't know when spring starts in your area so it is possible that we may be saying exactly the same thing. The thing I know about Kit's bulls is that they have alot of depth and breadth and not alot of leg. I don't think there's much money in legs anyway. His bulls have alot of muscle and are supposedly easy keeping according to everything I hear. I think the important thing to bear in mind is 'net profit'. I know many up here who have huge cows that raise huge calves but I also know that those cows eat twice what mine do and overall, I would prefer to raise a larger number of smaller calves per acre because usually the price per pound on smaller calves is higher. I agree with you that saleability is important and by that I mean producing what the customer is looking for in your area, whether that be quality Brahmans, Continentals or British animals. I believe that over time as the North American baby boomers age that you will see a trend towards smaller cuts and therefore smaller framed cattle and I think Kit is on the right track if maybe just a bit ahead of his time. JMHO.

 

[PPRM]

ok, the stuck with sending a 50 lb calf to feedlot thing has me disagreeing. depends upon time of year. Where we are, calves don't get discounted at Tyson until they exceed 950 lbs on the rail.

I was talking to a guy about this yesterday. He was afraid of getting calves too big. Let me tell you, it takes a lot to excedd 950 lbs on the rail.
I am pushing cattle in excess of 900 pounds on cheap pasture right now before they hit the more expensive corn ration in the feedlot.

The too big thing I have found to be a myth with most cattle where we are at,

just my experience,

PPRM

 

[BRG]

I think Kit has some good things going, however, I think he has gone to far the other way. I guess it is human nature to go to extremes. But some of the herdbulls that he is pushing, just won't work for the average rancher. When he talks about Frames score at 2, 3, and 4's, he is talking near dwafs. The feeders, packers, and retailers don't want that, and when they are our only customers, I think we have try to make what they want.

 

[frenchie]

It might pay to keep in mind that there is only 6 inches difference in height between a 3 frame score and a 6 frame score.

 

[BRG]

I understand that, but not every 5.5-6 frame cow is all leg. Ours gets most of it from a combination of leg and capacity. Unless you really look at them, you wouldn't know they are that type of frame because it is put together right.

 

[Mike]

ok, the stuck with sending a 50 lb calf to feedlot thing has me disagreeing. depends upon time of year. Where we are, calves don't get discounted at Tyson until they exceed 950 lbs on the rail.

I was talking to a guy about this yesterday. He was afraid of getting calves too big. Let me tell you, it takes a lot to excedd 950 lbs on the rail.
I am pushing cattle in excess of 900 pounds on cheap pasture right now before they hit the more expensive corn ration in the feedlot.

The too big thing I have found to be a myth with most cattle where we are at,

just my experience,

PPRM

Pat, I see it like you do. I would rather have a 949 lb. carcass. Usually those big calves convert feed better also. Look at a 950 lb. select YG1 over a 650 lb. choice YG 3, by gosh we DO sell by the pound. :wink:

 

[BRG]

Mike,
Glad to see that I am not the only one that thinks like this. You are exactly right about feed conversions and the comparisons on the yield grades.

 

[Mike]

Mike,
Glad to see that I am not the only one that thinks like this. You are exactly right about feed conversions and the comparisons on the yield grades.

Somehow I get the impression that you have a "Continental" breed of cattle also. Glad to see everyone hasn't "Gone Flabby"!

 

[frenchie]

I understand that, but not every 5.5-6 frame cow is all leg. Ours gets most of it from a combination of leg and capacity. Unless you really look at them, you wouldn't know they are that type of frame because it is put together right.

I understand that and I was,nt trying to imply they all were.....I was just pointing out cattle like Pharos are not waist buckle high cattle.


There are however lots of cattle that get their height mostly from legs.A lot of those beasts are pencil gutted as well.