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What happens if you cross an F1 cow on an F1 bull?

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Wyoming Wind

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We run primarily black angus and black baldy cows and we are getting blacker and blacker every year. We have been throwing around the idea of getting a few hereford bulls to get some more color but we aren't sure. We have some fantastic black baldy F1 cows we bought a few years back that throw some beautiful baldy calves and have been thinking about keeping a few of them as bulls and putting them into our bull herd if they "make the cut" (pun intended)! Wondering what would happen if we did---what would happen genetically if they bred an F1 cow (F1 x F1). What would be the chances that they could throw a red calf? I wonder how come no one has really pushed F1 angus/hereford bulls in this industry??? And maybe they have and I just don't know about it? Hmmmm...? Have any of you done this?
 

cowman52

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An f1xf1 is kinda like throwing dice in Vegas tin,might work if you have enough money to play long enough. In a lot of the club calf operations you have just what you are proposing---- You get one or two great ones, half a dozen fair ones, and the rest go to town cause you are ashamed for anyone to see what you did.
The f1 mom is fine but go back with a pureblood so the predictability doesn't go to zero.
Ranch here is using Herefords x Charolais as mom and red angus --- calves look good, all Alike.
Have a lot of Brahman cross south of here, a lo of not so good fences so the neighbor s Heinz 57 bull gets in.. Can't give them away at the sale barn.

Just my opinion
 

eatbeef

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I guess basically that is what we are doing. Using Sim/Angus bulls on cows that are hereford/angus, or sim/angus, or a combination of the three. I make sure that the sim/angus bulls we buy are homozygous black and homozygous polled, all black or black baldy calves and no horns. Have mostly 1200 to 1300 lbs cows and last years calves average adjusted 205 day weight was 653. Best steers every year are the ones on of F1 baldies bred to sim/angus bulls. We keep a few mostly angus cows to breed to hereford bulls and thats the only time we get a few reds.
 

VLS_GUY

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If you interbreed F1 X F1 you will get every color combination from blacks to red whiteface calves. Not to mention if horned Hereford bulls are used some of the calves with be horned and/or scurred.
Not saying the composite wouldn't work, you just would get a technicolor herd out of the deal.
 

eatbeef

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Maybe 2 british breeds F1 crosses would work differently though. Possibly having the simmental which is a contitental breed in the mix is what makes it work.
 

jodywy

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know a outfit that runs red bally cows (Red Angus cows x Hereford bulls)they get all thier hiefers from one out fit which inturn get thier Red Angus cows from another . Works out for all 3. the red bally out fit uses a terminal cross. know that not your answer but in a workable deal if one finds the right partners.
 

Faster horses

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There was an outfit in South Central Mt. that tried this, but it wasn't
successful and they are no longer in business.

I had the same idea back in the '70's and every stockman I knew
told me not to try it because it wasn't a good idea.

And a really good older and very respected stockman from around here raises F1 baldies. (Hereford cows, Black Angus bulls)
He maintains the first cross is dynamite and it's downhill from there~
he tried it...
(but he wasn't talking about adding some black Simmental--that
might work better.) FWIW
 

PATB

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The heterosis will diminish with crossing 2 f1's of the same breed and uniformity will most likely decrease as well. A 3rd terminal cross would give the most heterosis but beware of calving problems as heterosis comes into play with calf size.

If you decide to go the route of keeping and using home raised bulls pay particular attention to past production and fitness of the dams. Very high standards need to be kept when keeping and using ones own bulls. Steer anything that the dam has any challenges regardless of how good it looks and grows. The same goes for the bull calfs kept. Always keep several more than you need in case of later selection pressure eliminates animals. Be prepared to sell all offspring of a bull if results are not what you want.

The benefit of using top home raised bulls is that you know what you are working with and they are adapted tp your management style and resources. Good luck with what ever way you decide to go.
 

Faster horses

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If you decide to go the route of keeping and using home raised bulls pay particular attention to past production and fitness of the dams. Very high standards need to be kept when keeping and using ones own bulls. Steer anything that the dam has any challenges regardless of how good it looks and grows. The same goes for the bull calfs kept. Always keep several more than you need in case of later selection pressure eliminates animals. Be prepared to sell all offspring of a bull if results are not what you want.
--------------

Good advice. Larry Leonhardt (Shoshone Angus) says the most
important individual in the pedigree is the mother of the dam.
(Grandmother of the individual one is looking to keep or buy). FWIW
He has studied cow lines forever and is very knowledgeable about
Angus genetics.
 

WVGenetics

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You might want to keep in mind that heterosis is greatest (100%) in an F1 and only goes down from there. Heterosis in an F2 (F1 x F1) is only 50% while using those same breeds in a 2 breed rotation gets you 67% of maximum heterosis. I would use the rotation because of greater heterosis, less recombination loss of favorable genetic associations in the purebred parents and greater repeatability. Like everyone has said, you'll end up with a tremendous amount of variation in the F2 calves.
 

bgc

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first of all as stated above, heterosis goes down - big disadvantage there, but not totally a loss because the more you use cattle from your own herd the more consistent you cattle become. Make sure you are selecting these bulls that "make the cut" with traits that you desire. Dont just pick them because they weighed the most at weaning and they are black. There are a lot more traits to select for and the hardest part is deciding what traits to select for and how to measure those traits.

Be wary of using 1/2 hereford 1/2 angus cows and bulls because you will get every combo of colors. RWF, Red, Black, BWF calves will all show up and even some with horns/scurs. If you are a large enough outfit you can market those calves just as effictively, and RWF cows are just as good as BWF cows so those heifer calves will bring good money or make you good mommas in the future.

Somebody mentioned using a homo black simangus and that would be a great idea to keep the heterosis, black color and allow you to have those baldy looking cows you want with maybe a touch more growth and carcass weight. The one thing with that is to be careful selecting the sire as you can add a ton of frame size in a hurry. I have a homo black simm bull that I use a lot and he actually reduces frame. He is a lucky dice son that is only frame 5.4. He does a great job on my straight angus cows to add some explosive growth and makes great heifers.

Pay attention to the fine details of what you expect from the calf crop and work backwards from there selecting the bulls that will give you what you want.
 

Blackford

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About thirty years ago we started throwing the best Angus bulls we could find on our registered Hereford herd to diversify the shrinking genetic base in the Horned Herefords and to raise black baldy bulls. These bulls were surprisingly (at the time) the best bulls we were raising, and the heifers were too. So we started some experiments, one of which was the F1 on a F1, the result was that much better than the original F1 cross, we call it a Blackford, basically marked like a Black Baldy but most have a broco face, we do occasionally get one with extra white on the legs and neck like a Hereford and occasionally some with a red hide but about 95% come out as uniform as can be. We still use the Hereford and Angus breeds to diversify our genetic base but most of our cattle can be traced back for 30 years to our original F1s. Despite what the studies say our Blackford on Blackford cross out preforms the F1s almost every time.

I know this isn't a place to advertise but Google Blackford Cattle Co. to see what what we are doing.
 

scout

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we run two herds one is sim angus or straight angus cows these are bred to hereford bulls . the other is F1 angus x herdford cross cows and are best black cows bred to simxangus bulls. the black hefiers go back to the hereford bulls and baldys go to the sim angus bulls the steers are great terminals and the daughters make great cows we maintain are heterosis on both sides the three breeds compliment each other very well to make overall moderate cattle, that work in both areas. I like we don't have to worry about daughters going back under there sires so we keep are good bulls alot longer.
 

littlejoe

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PATB said:
The heterosis will diminish with crossing 2 f1's of the same breed and uniformity will most likely decrease as well. A 3rd terminal cross would give the most heterosis but beware of calving problems as heterosis comes into play with calf size.

If you decide to go the route of keeping and using home raised bulls pay particular attention to past production and fitness of the dams. Very high standards need to be kept when keeping and using ones own bulls. Steer anything that the dam has any challenges regardless of how good it looks and grows. The same goes for the bull calfs kept. Always keep several more than you need in case of later selection pressure eliminates animals. Be prepared to sell all offspring of a bull if results are not what you want.

The benefit of using top home raised bulls is that you know what you are working with and they are adapted tp your management style and resources. Good luck with what ever way you decide to go.

"The heterosis will diminish with crossing 2 f1's of the same breed and uniformity will most likely decrease as well."

I'm not too sure about first half of above sentence---aren't 'composites' based on idea of maintaining heterosous?

But the second part makes sense--i'm thinking of Mendel and his peas:

With an F1 (blk baldy) , you got H x A----

Now, with 2 F1's, you got H x A & H x A----looks like half the offspring would have potential for H x H or A x A to express---more reds and solid blacks?

Anybody (Everybody?!) who understands/can explain this better?
 

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