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Mike
Well-known member
This fairy tale does not expound on using "Terminal" sires for more calf weight on the trailer.
They are completely leaving out an important part of the equation in the cattle business.
Get yourself some milky moderate cows and push the limit on a safe & reasonable threshold for calf birthweights. When heterosis kicks in, those little tiny calves will never catch up.
It's most likely that replacement heifers are cheaper & less trouble to buy than raise anyway.
I can never remember anyone claiming that bigger cows are more economical. More Angus propaganda..................
:roll:
They are completely leaving out an important part of the equation in the cattle business.
Get yourself some milky moderate cows and push the limit on a safe & reasonable threshold for calf birthweights. When heterosis kicks in, those little tiny calves will never catch up.
It's most likely that replacement heifers are cheaper & less trouble to buy than raise anyway.
I can never remember anyone claiming that bigger cows are more economical. More Angus propaganda..................
:roll:
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Anonymous
Guest
What I thought was most interesting was that this southern (Oklahoma) University study was saying essentially what the northern studies have been saying about maintaining moderation in maternal cattle for efficiency...
North Dakota state University's studies for the past 10 years back this info about word for word- and prior to that it was Montana State University's-- which also spoke of the dangers of losing too much body fat on your maternal cattle... They picked the British breeds as the most efficient for wintering in the north- with Galloway being their number 1 most efficient- followed by Angus and Hereford ...
North Dakota state University's studies for the past 10 years back this info about word for word- and prior to that it was Montana State University's-- which also spoke of the dangers of losing too much body fat on your maternal cattle... They picked the British breeds as the most efficient for wintering in the north- with Galloway being their number 1 most efficient- followed by Angus and Hereford ...
Mike
Well-known member
Yet the Angus keep getting larger;
http://farmprogress.com/story-heavier-angus-cattle-new-trend-9-97565
http://farmprogress.com/story-heavier-angus-cattle-new-trend-9-97565
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Anonymous
Guest
Mike said:
Yep- been happening since the 70's when the angus breeders tried to make angus into continentals with the "bigger, better, faster" numbers game....
Now more of the agricultural colleges and producers are seeing (and showing in their studies) the fallacy and problems that trend created - and that for some it may actually be costing them more by losing the maternal efficiency of the moderate angus cow...
Mike
Well-known member
Why don't you tell us one more time? :lol: :lol:
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Anonymous
Guest
http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/1101aj_MilkvsFrame.pdf
Mike
Well-known member
Mike said:
A few years ago I had 15 Angus cows and 15 Charolis cows over the winter - - - just to see I divided them and it took about 40% more hay for the Charolis.
I am now down to 1 registered Charolis and one Smokey ( my grand daughters favorite ) as I figure if I can feed about a third more Angus on the same feed and the calves several years in a row were within just a few pounds I feel I can make more money with the lower input cattle - - - love the look of those huge white beauties but the bottom line is I need to feed my family and I feel a moderate framed Angus fills the bill for me.
So I feel even if you have lush feed no need to waste it! Raise twins!
Soapweed
Well-known member
Denny said:
Thanks for the compliment, Denny.
I do believe in "moderation in all things," but sometimes just merely take the path of least resistance.
Faster horses
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I will add that Charolais and Simmental cattle have higher mineral requirements due to their slower metabolism. FWIW
Mike
Well-known member
Faster horses said:
Could you cite that research?
Mill Iron A
Active member
Careful with too much generalities when speaking of charolais cattle, while the mainstream charolais is exactly what you described you are forgetting abput the HooDoo type charolais. In my experience they winter as good or better than angus cattle and mature cow weights are 1100 to 1200. We use these genetics to winter graze and only supplement hay when snow cover is over a foot or of it os a drought year. There are some great angus cattle out there, however there are a lot that are too big for us and I jave found that the red angus are hardier and smaller framed. We are also going to try some galloway this year.
Not trying to pick a fight, but it appears to me, that what some are pushing, is a dink cow. She has a 30 pound calf. Weans something that weighs about 40% of her weight. May or may not breed back, but we will keep her because she is a "moderate" framed cow. While on the other hand, you don't want a 1400 pound cow, that has 70 pound calf. Weans a calf that weighs 65 to 70% of her weight, and breeds back everytime. Don't want her because she is a BIG cow. :roll:
But who am I to talk? My Longhorns weigh about 900 pounds, calve unassisted, never see mineral, shots or any of that. Breed every year, and still wean a calf that is over 50% of the cows weight.
But who am I to talk? My Longhorns weigh about 900 pounds, calve unassisted, never see mineral, shots or any of that. Breed every year, and still wean a calf that is over 50% of the cows weight.
Soapweed
Well-known member
LazyWP said:
Are you sure you're not trying to pick a fight?
Your Longhorns work well for you, because you feed them out yourself and eat the results. What about if you were trying to sell them in quantity? Would they bring a decent price, or would they meet with buyer resistance at the sale barn? If for no other reason, without preconditioning vaccinations not many buyers would be willing to take a chance.
Crossbreeding cattle is a fine idea with proper pre-planning and an organized system. Crossbreeding at random just makes a mongrelized mess on down the road.
I have probably only sold calves through a sale barn 5 times in my life. When I was a kid, we never sold through a barn. Either sold private, or fed them out. With my own, I sold through a barn the first 4 years, because part of the cows were leased, and I didn't have a good enough banker to back the risk of feeding them.
To answer your question, yes you will take a hit at the barn, but if you can buy the cow for less then half of what you can a "good" black cow, can you not take less for the calf? In your operation, Longhorns won't work. There are lots of places they won't work, but to tell me that a 900 pound Angus is the only way to go, isn't going to work either. Nor will a 1400 pound cow, that is butterball fat, and won't milk.
What I am saying, is know your cattle. Don't listen to, and follow all the latest and greatest trends. I think you, Soapweed, have done a tremdous job of staying the course. Not all of your cows fit into the 1000 pound range. Nor are they 1500 pounds, or 850.
To answer your question, yes you will take a hit at the barn, but if you can buy the cow for less then half of what you can a "good" black cow, can you not take less for the calf? In your operation, Longhorns won't work. There are lots of places they won't work, but to tell me that a 900 pound Angus is the only way to go, isn't going to work either. Nor will a 1400 pound cow, that is butterball fat, and won't milk.
What I am saying, is know your cattle. Don't listen to, and follow all the latest and greatest trends. I think you, Soapweed, have done a tremdous job of staying the course. Not all of your cows fit into the 1000 pound range. Nor are they 1500 pounds, or 850.
leanin' H
Well-known member
Individal environment plays a big part. Out here, we want a cow who will trail a long ways to water and get by on browse, rocks and rattlesnakes. Moderate cows SEEM to do better. But unless you take every cow in your herd, put each in her own pen and feed them exactly the same amount of feed and then measure what she does with that feed, HOW WILL YOU EVER KNOW FOR SURE WHICH COW IS MOST EFFECIENT? :? A 1200 pound cow that raises a 65% of her body weight calf at weaning and does it using the same amount of feed as a 1000 pound cow is the one i want. I can only use my judgement and experience to find that cow. Nobody wants an in-effecient cow REGARDLESS OF BREED!!!!
Faster horses
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Mike said:
It's been known for quite some time, Mike. I've read it in several articles on mineral supplementation. Here is one source, but there are many others. I will try and find more as I have time:
Breed can also affect the mineral requirements of the cow herd. Simmental and Charolais cattle require more copper than Angus cattle. Levels may need to be increased 25 to 50 percent for these breeds.
http://www.caes.uga.edu/Publications/pubDetail.cfm?pk_ID=7650
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edited to add this source:
http://www.journalofanimalscience.org/content/73/2/571.full.pdf
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Copper requirements may be affected by breed. Simmental cattle excrete more copper in their bile than Angus (Gooneratne et al., 1994). Ward et al. (1995) reported that Simmental and Charolais cows and their calves were more susceptible to copper deficiency than Angus when fed the same diet.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9791&page=62
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I hope you understand that I wasn't picking on Charolais or Simmental when
I first stated their mineral requirements were higher. I just thought I would
add it to the thread, as it is not commonly understood, or even realized.
BRG
Well-known member
I posted this a while back on cattletoday.com, so I thought I would bring it over. It is along the same lines as this topic.
Their is more to it than just smaller cows. Yes they may eat less and you may be able to raise more pounds of beef per acre off a smaller cow. But the rest of the story isn't told in a smaller cow. We purchase for hire and feed quite a few calves out every year. Typically the smaller framed calves kill lighter and don't do as well in the feedlot. Their are more yield grade 4's in a smaller animal which is a huge discount as well. The smaller cattle need to be backgrounded longer because otherwise they get fat to early, they need to be grown out first. So with all of this, feeders will usually shy away from smaller framed cattle. I realize we can't raise cattle for the feeder only, but we need to keep them in consideration, otherwise you will not get paid like you could. The feeders will not buy the same calves next year if they don't do what the feeder needs them to do. Now I am not promoting big frame cattle here, but their is a happy medium we can fit in where it isn't to small or to big. In our environment, you can't keep one real small, as the grass is real powerful and it allows them to grow. Where is the South East US it seems to be just the opposite. The feeders like cattle that will kill around 1350 lbs, and if the genetics are right in the cattle, the feeder calves will get to that size, what ever size the cow is in her environment.
Also, when it comes to selling calves off the cow at weaning, yes a lighter weight calf usually brings more per pound than a heavy calf. But it is usually the second cut of a decent size frame group of calves that get the good premium. Not the ones that are to small framed. I have been told several times by buyers not to bid on so and so's calves as they are out of too small framed cows. Now if your entire goal is to produce more pounds of beef per acre, then the smaller cow is the way to go. But if you want to be profitable and if you want your customer, who is the feeder, to be profitable and to come back and leave a competitive bid on your calves year after year, then I think you should look at the bigger picture, not just from birth to weaning.
We have found that the 5 to 6 frame herd sire will produce the type cow and feeder calf that works for us and our customers the best and yet has a good demand from the feeders.
Their is more to it than just smaller cows. Yes they may eat less and you may be able to raise more pounds of beef per acre off a smaller cow. But the rest of the story isn't told in a smaller cow. We purchase for hire and feed quite a few calves out every year. Typically the smaller framed calves kill lighter and don't do as well in the feedlot. Their are more yield grade 4's in a smaller animal which is a huge discount as well. The smaller cattle need to be backgrounded longer because otherwise they get fat to early, they need to be grown out first. So with all of this, feeders will usually shy away from smaller framed cattle. I realize we can't raise cattle for the feeder only, but we need to keep them in consideration, otherwise you will not get paid like you could. The feeders will not buy the same calves next year if they don't do what the feeder needs them to do. Now I am not promoting big frame cattle here, but their is a happy medium we can fit in where it isn't to small or to big. In our environment, you can't keep one real small, as the grass is real powerful and it allows them to grow. Where is the South East US it seems to be just the opposite. The feeders like cattle that will kill around 1350 lbs, and if the genetics are right in the cattle, the feeder calves will get to that size, what ever size the cow is in her environment.
Also, when it comes to selling calves off the cow at weaning, yes a lighter weight calf usually brings more per pound than a heavy calf. But it is usually the second cut of a decent size frame group of calves that get the good premium. Not the ones that are to small framed. I have been told several times by buyers not to bid on so and so's calves as they are out of too small framed cows. Now if your entire goal is to produce more pounds of beef per acre, then the smaller cow is the way to go. But if you want to be profitable and if you want your customer, who is the feeder, to be profitable and to come back and leave a competitive bid on your calves year after year, then I think you should look at the bigger picture, not just from birth to weaning.
We have found that the 5 to 6 frame herd sire will produce the type cow and feeder calf that works for us and our customers the best and yet has a good demand from the feeders.