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Why do you buy cake?

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movin' on said:
Feeding alfalfa to a large number of cows is not a problem. Yes, you have to have a bale-bed to get the job done, but they will usually outlast several pickups. Alfalfa is the best hay in for unrolling, too. A good alfalfa bale that was baled right can take 1/4 to nearly 1/2 a mile to unroll. That's quite a bit of area for the cows to line up on both sides of and eat.

For those of you that have a tractor close to where the cows winter, there is a wonderful bale-unroller contraption they make for the three point. They are way less expensive than a conventional bale-bed for a pickup. If anyone is interested, I'll post a link on here.
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Movin On, is this a 3 pt bale unroller similar to the one you were talking about. It called a spinoff. It has a long bale spear with 3 fingers that spin on the shaft. It's been a handy piece of equipment for us. Nice for unrolling in tight spots and along the creek where space is limited. Main thing is spear the center of the bale and it will unroll without any wobbling.
Here's a few pics of the Spin Off model.
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I guess the equivalent of 'cake' up here is grain screening pellets-in the drought years we wintered on flax or wheat straw and pellets. It was a great exercise program the kids and I fed about 100 five gallon pales a day. I had two tractor tires bolted together with a hole in the top-we'd pail it full then pick up with the bale deck-it would drop a pile every revolution.One thing about pellets when it gets bitterly cold you can adjust the ration fairly quickly upward-this winter when it got -50 for several days all the hay they could eat wasn't quite enough.
 
No, Empty Pockets, that's actually different from the one I was talking about. I've never seen one quite like yours. It looks like it gets the job done just fine. I'll see if I can find a link to the one I've used in the past.
 
Ok, here it is. It's the one on the bottom of the list. There no hydraulic ram in it as pictured. The ram obviously goes from one of the pieces of black flat iron to the other. Works really good. It just about doesn't grip a 4 ft. bale is the only problem I have with it.

http://www.worksaver.com/product/bale-3pt.html
 
I've fed cubes in the past...when the grass was poor...

solved this by seeding alfalfa with my grass and feeding mixed alfalfa/brome bales.I still give the older girls some barley chop.

interestingly there is an article in the new addition of Agriview about wet/dry distillers grain becoming more available in Sk.
 
The original question about "why cake?"
It's to compensate for inadequate protein levels in a high roughage diet. If you're feeding 14% tame hay, of course you wouldn't cake. Cows getting 30# dm of 8% grass hay are going to need some protein. 5# of 20% alfalfa will get you almost to 10% cp - pretty good for dry cows that don't need pushed. (35# is about all 1200# cow will eat)


FH mentioned npn - a good person to listen to (npn is effective in a concentrate ration, not so much on a roughage diet, and some unscrupulous feed guys will bs you.)

I like feeding alfalfa, remember the protein pool lasts roughly 48 hours, so every other day is fine, (preferable so the boss cows don't get all the feed). Twice a week is mostly ok if weather is decent, and primary feed is decent, and you have dry cows. Really, every other day is a better option.

Lining up your cows 3 times a week and the inspection opportunity is worth what it costs to unroll some alfalfa. As noted, all alfalfa isn't equal. FH sez test & that's a good idea. Unroll on turfy grass and hay loss will be negligible. You can unroll 1 of 2 ways - with the way you rolled the bale orthe opposite way you baled. I like with, but with unrolls faster so you don't spread out the hay as much. I feed at least 10# at a time so spreading out hay isn't an issue. They'll clean up better if you don't stretch out so far, and I feel like feeding the opposite way you baled beats the leaves off worse. Caking with alfalfa is another example of where you might want to take control of the process - night baled alfalfa works sooo much better. I see people baling alfalfa in the afternoon and their baler is blowing dust like a combine, any leaves that do make it into the bale instead of blowing to sd, will be so powdery they won't get used well, (but that hay will still test well).

The way to tell if you are unrolling in the same direction hay was baled: rub your hand on the top half of the flat end of a bale. When you rub one direction, your hand rubes smooth & one direction your hand gets poked by the stem ends. So if you moved your hand from east to west and it was smooth, then unroll from the east in a west direction. So if you want to spread out your hay more, unroll the other direction. If you cut with an 18' platform, then double the windrows with a rake, you probably want to unroll against the way it was baled because the other way will unroll very fast and thick.

I think hendersons south of meriman might have some alfalfa for sale. They put up some legit nice hay but about everyone got snakebit on 3rd cutting. Rain and turn, rain and turn, pretty soon you're baling it to get it off the field.
 
I've got 2nd cutting alfalfa orchard grass for sale. No rain on any hay this year unfortunately. I've sold about 2,000 bales so far but have a little left.
 
Big Swede said:
I've got 2nd cutting alfalfa orchard grass for sale. No rain on any hay this year unfortunately. I've sold about 2,000 bales so far but have a little left.
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Ranchers in SE Montana have been crying for hay. Send me a PM of where you are and how to contact you and I'll let some people there know.

I read this thread from start to finish. It was interesting all over again.

I still maintain alfalfa is a better buy than cake; you know what is in it; you get some dry matter along with alfalfa (we are finding out more and more how important digestible dry matter is). Hay sure hasn't kept up with the price of other protein supplements. I also know that alfalfa hay needs to be put up right to be good. Mr. FH bales almost all our hay at night, or early morning. He likes to put up good hay.


I can't speak about DDG's as we have never fed those; but they seem to be a good deal. You may need to check your mineral formula and feed a less phos mineral with DDG's; depending on how much of it you feed per head per day. DDG's contain quite a bit of sulpher that may cause problems down the road and the right mineral formulation can help with that. Besides that, lower phos mineral is cheaper because phos is the most expensive ingredient in mineral.

I agree with Brad S. Alfalfa hay can be fed every other day or maybe even every third day and it will work just fine.
If you feed higher than 20% protein cake, it probably contains urea. Too much urea takes energy to digest. I've had customers tell me about feeding cake with a high % urea in the winter and the cows actually were shivering. He thought it was because of all the energy needed to digest the cake with urea.

Testing your hay could save thousands of dollars by not purchasing un-necessary protein. Feed companies have made a lot of money selling protein. 10% protein hay will meet a cows nutrition requirements; they just need plenty of it. We have never fed cake, only grass hay and much of it marginal in nutrition, and mineral and we got by just fine. We fed enough hay that there was some left over that the cows went back in the afternoon and cleaned up. We didn't have the rangeland to feed cake on winter grass, but I know those that do and they feed plenty of cake, they don't short the cows. They get along fine too. Protein is pretty easily met, it's energy requirements that are hardest to meet in the north country. There is a place in Miles City that makes a cake of alfalfa and corn. People that buy from them are very happy; that mill has a very good reputation. The cake looks really good and has the right consistency to hold up well.

We just tested some standing grass for a customer and it came back 2% protein. Cows can't eat enough of that to meet their requirements in digestible dry matter, protein or energy, so they need supplemented soon for sure. Mild temperature helps and that those cows aren't yet in the third trimester. Things change when entering that third trimester as nutrition requirements go up.
 
As usual I'm coming in way late on this topic but here's my two cents worth. First, living where I do alfalfa just isn't available. It's usually hot and dry in S. Texas and no one even tries to grow alfalfa. I know a couple of ranchers that have it hauled in but at $3000 for trucking alone (don't know the price of the hay) it makes it hard to pencil a profit out of your cattle. Second, I use cubes (cake) as a supplement to hay. I try to feed 1-2 pounds of cubes per head per day IN THE WINTER when the cattle are on hay. Third, we call cubes "cow crack". The cattle love it and will take you down for a cube. So with a bag of cubes you can move your cattle where ever you want them (like in the pen) just by opening a bag and spreading it around the corral.

I know this is off topic a little but I also supplement with molasses and medicated lick blocks.
 
Soapweed said:
Big Swede, we are starting to feed more alfalfa in place of cake. What are you asking for yours? I might be interested in some.
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My 3rd is all gone. I'm getting $135 for 2nd.
 
lavacarancher said:
As usual I'm coming in way late on this topic but here's my two cents worth. First, living where I do alfalfa just isn't available. It's usually hot and dry in S. Texas and no one even tries to grow alfalfa. I know a couple of ranchers that have it hauled in but at $3000 for trucking alone (don't know the price of the hay) it makes it hard to pencil a profit out of your cattle. Second, I use cubes (cake) as a supplement to hay. I try to feed 1-2 pounds of cubes per head per day IN THE WINTER when the cattle are on hay. Third, we call cubes "cow crack". The cattle love it and will take you down for a cube. So with a bag of cubes you can move your cattle where ever you want them (like in the pen) just by opening a bag and spreading it around the corral.

I know this is off topic a little but I also supplement with molasses and medicated lick blocks.
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Lava that's the way most of us in the warmer parts of the country feed. Mention alfalfa down here and folks think "dairy" and that's just about the only folks that can afford them. Plus most of us have more than enough grass hay to take care of our needs. Nutritionally cubes will be equal to if not better than alfalfa, they just come out of bag and lack the fiber content of the alfalfa but are fully fortified with vitamins and minerals. Some of the folks around here (and I've done it as well) feed 38% cubes which are all natural protein and nothing more than pure cottonseed meal with just enough molasses pellet binder added to make the cubes hard. Producers can feed half as much as the 20% cubes and get the same amount of crude protein . A few companies do make cubes with urea but seems most folks avoid them even though 99% of them contain 20 lbs. per ton of urea are less so the cow is consuming very little of it. Urea works better in high energy diets anyway or if fed in conjunction with molasses as in tubs or liquid feed. As for alfalfa in a cube, anytime you see alfalfa being sold in anything but a bale (round or square) there is a reason. It was usually cut late, got rained on, tested low on protein and digestibility. Companies buy it cheap, dehydrate it, grind it super find and resell it. Makes a beautiful dark green pellet or cube but it is almost never guaranteed over 17% crude protein, and has extremely high ADF and NDF and low TDN. But cubed and bagged and they make a killing off of it.

Probably the biggest problem we have down here is people unwilling to have their hay tested if they grow there own or if they are buying it, thus have no real idea if the hay needs supplementing and as Faster Horses said it can be pretty low quality and a cow will starve to death with a belly full of it. That's when you hope they have enough sense to pay attention to other warning signs like loss of body condition, failure to breed back in a timely manner, and raising an unthrifty calf because of a lack of milk production.
 
Faster horses said:
Big Swede said:
I've got 2nd cutting alfalfa orchard grass for sale. No rain on any hay this year unfortunately. I've sold about 2,000 bales so far but have a little left.
Click to expand...

Ranchers in SE Montana have been crying for hay. Send me a PM of where you are and how to contact you and I'll let some people there know.

I read this thread from start to finish. It was interesting all over again.

I still maintain alfalfa is a better buy than cake; you know what is in it; you get some dry matter along with alfalfa (we are finding out more and more how important digestible dry matter is). Hay sure hasn't kept up with the price of other protein supplements. I also know that alfalfa hay needs to be put up right to be good. Mr. FH bales almost all our hay at night, or early morning. He likes to put up good hay.


I can't speak about DDG's as we have never fed those; but they seem to be a good deal. You may need to check your mineral formula and feed a less phos mineral with DDG's; depending on how much of it you feed per head per day. DDG's contain quite a bit of sulpher that may cause problems down the road and the right mineral formulation can help with that. Besides that, lower phos mineral is cheaper because phos is the most expensive ingredient in mineral.

I agree with Brad S. Alfalfa hay can be fed every other day or maybe even every third day and it will work just fine.
If you feed higher than 20% protein cake, it probably contains urea. Too much urea takes energy to digest. I've had customers tell me about feeding cake with a high % urea in the winter and the cows actually were shivering. He thought it was because of all the energy needed to digest the cake with urea.

Testing your hay could save thousands of dollars by not purchasing un-necessary protein. Feed companies have made a lot of money selling protein. 10% protein hay will meet a cows nutrition requirements; they just need plenty of it. We have never fed cake, only grass hay and much of it marginal in nutrition, and mineral and we got by just fine. We fed enough hay that there was some left over that the cows went back in the afternoon and cleaned up. We didn't have the rangeland to feed cake on winter grass, but I know those that do and they feed plenty of cake, they don't short the cows. They get along fine too. Protein is pretty easily met, it's energy requirements that are hardest to meet in the north country. There is a place in Miles City that makes a cake of alfalfa and corn. People that buy from them are very happy; that mill has a very good reputation. The cake looks really good and has the right consistency to hold up well.

We just tested some standing grass for a customer and it came back 2% protein. Cows can't eat enough of that to meet their requirements in digestible dry matter, protein or energy, so they need supplemented soon for sure. Mild temperature helps and that those cows aren't yet in the third trimester. Things change when entering that third trimester as nutrition requirements go up.
Click to expand...

I've been getting 3rd with a little rain damage laid in ---40 ton loads, 120 mile haul, for 125$.

3 x 4 bales which feed lots nicer with a pitchfork than 4x4, weigh about 1400. testing over 20% protein.

my bale handler will pick them the wide way==hydrabed. then back into a stack butt and cram 'em all the way ahead.

hay's between townsend and I 90

pm me if you want phone number---I hate to just put it online w/o permission

I think there's quite a bit of hay in that area.....
 
You are not taking into account the extra energy in the cake.
I do not feed much if any cake but an feeding some ddg. My experience us when I start feeding hay, cows tend to want to quit grazing cornstalks. They hear a tractor or pickup going down the road and go stand along the fence begging to be fed. Good alfalfa delivered would usually be well over $100 a ton, even grass hay is often over 100 a ton for a short haul. Those truckers seem to want to be able to eat, pay for their trucks and fuel and still have some left.

After I start feeding full or nearly full feed if hay, I do feed alfalfa if I have enough but don't usually buy any.
 

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