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Why we need COOL and why R-Calf is helping you

Can you include any references when you site? It would help me discuss the issues and help readers find out where the information is coming from. My stuff is all coming from what I believe, so take that with a grain of salt, especially since you guys don't know me from jigs.
 
Luke, thank you for a civil response and I will certainly respond in kind.


Luke: "My suggestion, not an argument, is that: R-CALF is an US organization that is protecting US industry, COOL differentiates based on a consumer's perception of quality, COOL will enable our checkoff dollars to be used more efficiently to drive demand of US beef."

With all do respect, my factually based opinion is that R-CALF is an organization that is hurting the U.S. industry in numerous ways.

For instance, what could possibly be more potentially damaging to our industry than to risk the integrity of 80% of our U.S. beef consumption (domestic production) in order to stop the importation of 5% of our domestic beef consumption (Canadian live cattle imports) by standing on a position that having BSE in your native herd means your beef is "high risk". How can you have any integrity in that position when we now have BSE in our native herd and our BSE "firewalls" are less stringent than Canada's due to their traceback and chicken litter ban?

How anyone could consider that flawed political move "proper representation" is beyond my comprehension.

Good thing for the U.S. cattle industry that the media didn't see R-CALF as a credible source of information on BSE and good thing the 9th circuit didn't buy into R-CALF's "opinions" or consumer demand for U.S. beef could have been in the tank. Luckily, facts and truth prevailed as it should.

Consumers perceptions of quality beef has to do with value for the price, not what country it originated from. Look no further than all the foreign products in Walmart.

"M"COOL will not drive demand for U.S. beef when 95% of the labeled beef under "M"COOL would be labeled as U.S. beef making foreign beef a novelty item.

There is lots and lots of examples to prove that Country of Origin is not high on the consumer's priority list.


Luke: "Ironically, COOL scares enough people, with all the answers, into saying that implementation, enforcement, and cost/benefit questions are not answered."

No, "M"COOL, as written is a seriously flawed law because it demands proof of where beef was "born, raised, and slaughtered" but then prohibits "M"ID to accomplish that.

Have you even read the law?


Luke: "Although I don't know where you got your figures and why the person who came up with those figures couldn't figure out how much it would cost, I can honestly say that 5% is still worthy of an effort."

The figures are from USDA.

"Food service" accounts for 75% of our imported beef. That is a fact take it or leave it.

If you think 5% is worthy of supporting an unenfoceable law, you are obviously not in the retail beef business.

Go to the USDA listening session site and listen to those who actually market beef tell you how much this will cost them in segregation costs to accomplish something that consumers are not even asking for and if they were, the free enterprise system can and would provide it without a government mandate. This law is the classic "symbolism over substance". A great concept but the costs will not outweigh the benefits.

Don't take my word for it. Go to the "M"COOL listening sessions on line and see for yourself what processors and retailers of all sizes are saying about this flawed law.

Ironically, the large packers are set up much better to handle the expense of segregation than the small packers which will serve only to further concentrate the industry.


Luke: "This is a key issue and I agree that you must have an adequate system in place to track the cattle. It is too bad that so many people are against it"

The fact remains, this law as written is not enforceable because "M"ID was prohibited.

Those consumers that want to know where their beef comes from want TRACEBACK, not a flawed Country of Origin labeling law that segregates 5% of the beef, at the cost of labeling all beef, to create a novelty item to the benefit of foreign beef.

"Hmmm let's see should I try the U.S. beef, the U.S. beef, the U.S. beef, the U.S. beef, the U.S. beef, the U.S. beef or the U.S. beef......hey what's this......"Maple Leaf Canadian beef", Yeh I'll try that.

What's our hispanic population now Luke? Think they are going to shy away from Mexican beef?


Luke: "Your mortage is only as good as your signature. Can't your bank use the courts to take your ground, based on your signature, promise to pay? What good is our court system if it can't rely on a signature? Would a nortarized affidavit be better?"

A signature is only as good as it's means of enforcement.

When you send in your income tax form, why fill out the form? Using your logic we should be able to just send a check in with your signature on it? After all, you signed the check.

If only a signature is proof positive of livestock, why do so many areas have brand inspection, why not just have a signature stating that the livestock belongs to you?

As I said, a signature is only as good as the means to enforce it.



Luke: "It is interesting that you have the same argument as the packers, but then say that you can't trust the packers to have a good tracking system for affidavits."

It is interesting that "M"COOL proponents claim we need to have "M"COOL to keep greedy packers from hiding foreign beef behind the USDA grade stamp but they are willing to trust these same packers with signed affidavits as proof of origin?

Now you tell me which argument is the most conflicting?

It's not about "trust" is about "enforcement".


Luke: "Who would burden those 5% of costs, the consumer or the packer? I am sure that eventually they would get back to the producer, but who knows what the eventual benefit of "M" Cool would be? Why are the packers so opposed of implementing a traceable system for their outputs? You offer an alternative, but why is it possible for Wal-mart to track billions of packages and the beef industry is unable to figure out a logistics system that satisfies."

You are correct, the expenses usually come from the consumer or the producer because the packer and retailer are margin operators. The path of least resistance is generally the producer.

Regardless, consumers aren't asking for it and if they were, there is a lot of source verified branded beef products for them to chose from that can trace the product to the farm of origin.

Who knows what the eventual benefit of segregating 5% of our domestic beef consumption at the expense of labeling all beef would be you ask? Why not ask those who know? Ask those who market beef, not those who claim to be in the "cattle industry" yet think they know more about selling beef than those who actually sell beef.

Why are packers opposed to "M"COOL? Because it's all expense and no benefits. Consumers are not asking for it and if they were they have numerous branded beef programs to chose from that source verify their beef.

Nobody ever said that traceback was impossible. Traceback is very possible. It's already occuring in the many source verified branded beef programs. "M"COOL has nothing to do with traceback because "M"ID was prohibited. "M"COOL proponents said they wanted country of origin, not farm of origin. They said "Just mark the imports". They said, "don't burden me with traceback". They had liability concerns with traceback so "M"ID was effectively prohibited from "M"COOL which gutted the law.


Luke: "Can we use the checkoff to encourage more customer loyalty or should we support "generic" beef with that checkoff?"

In order to have value in advertising, you need to be able to differentiate your product from something else. When 95% of the labeled beef would be "U.S. beef", all you are doing is differentiating the foreign beef as a novelty item.

I agree with you in that consumer surveys can be misleading. That's why I never agreed with the Colorado survey that concluded that consumers would pay more for U.S. beef. I'm like you, I would rather look at real life situations such as Mike Callicrate's Ranch Foods Direct which offers a "born, raised, and slaughtered in the U.S." branded beef product in the same state and has yet to realize a profit.

I like to look at the example of New Zealand lamb outselling U.S. lamb due also to being a novelty item.


Luke: "This is just business, if someone is scared about more costs, they shouldn't be in the business because that is today's world."

Any sound business does not aquire additional costs unless those costs are justified. In this case they are not. The costs of "M"COOL will be directly proportionate to it's enforceability. Without enforcement, anything can be labeled as anything but the costs would sure be low wouldn't they?


Luke: "In your mind the law is flawed, it isn't a great way to encourage disscussion."

I didn't just say the law is flawed, I proved the law is flawed. You contradicted absolutely nothing I presented with facts to the contrary. I backed my position with numerous examples and facts.


Luke: "You should start that statment with "I believe," let people decide for themselves."

Luke if I wasn't prepared to back my position with facts, I would state, "I believe". In this case I don't just believe, I know. I've done the research rather than listening to the anti packer rhetoric.

Like I said, don't take my word for it. Go to the "M"COOL listening sessions and see what those who actually process and sell beef have to say about this flawed law.


Luke: "I support "M" COOL because it will force us as an industry to implement control processes that will enable us to produce a "cleaner" product."

That brings up a good point, if all the beef sold in the U.S. is inspected equally, the odds are 95% to 5% that Ecoli would be found in U.S. beef. If Ecoli is found in U.S. beef, that's more incentive to buy the novelty item isn't it?

To your concerns about the low cost processor, imported beef is inspected twice giving it another clear advantage.


Luke: " Lets keep this a discussion on theories and not get emotion or industry ties involved. Too many people are tied to an organizational mindset that doesn't promote learning. It promotes following the organization's taglines and brings emotion into it."

I appreciate your attitude and will respond in kind.

The only thing that matters to me is truth and facts, not emotional rhetoric which is exactly what "M"COOL is based on.

I fed cattle for USDA's first total process verified branded beef program, PM BEEF group. I have no problems with source verification for branded beef programs which goes beyond Country of Origin. Source verification has value. This flawed law does not.

Thanks for respectable response and the good questions Luke.



~SH~
 
Luke said:
Can you include any references when you site? It would help me discuss the issues and help readers find out where the information is coming from. My stuff is all coming from what I believe, so take that with a grain of salt, especially since you guys don't know me from jigs.

If you are talking about what Leo has said I guess you will have to see if the internet broadcast of a Independent Cattlemen of Nebraska night with Leo MacDonnell is still on the internet. I taped it so I have a copy of it and I heard Leo say these things to the crowd via internet. Then maybe you can catch a replay of the RFD-TV program that R-CALF had to explain their position I also have it on tape so I can check to see exactly what was said. Some of it you can read right on the R-CALF USA web site. You can also find Cebulls ruling to pick up a bit more, by the looks of it it was a ditto of the R-CALF brief handed in to get the injunction. Then just to get yourself up to speed, read the Ninth Curcuit of Appeal ruling on the injunction. It pretty well lays out the R-CALF stand and how it is unjust on all counts. Then maybe a few google searches on R-CALF to top it all off. If that is not enough Ranchers.net has a Bull session archive maybe you could go back and see all the facts brought to the board over the past year that prove R-CALF lies and says what ever fits the conversation they are in with not concern to what will happen in the future if they have to retract some of those lies. Like the one All beef coming from a country with BSE is tainted and unfit for human consumption.
My stuff is all coming from what I believe, so take that with a grain of salt, especially since you guys don't know me from jigs
What a refreshing thing to see in a R-CALF supporter he is admitting he doen't know for a fact but just believes it. While I take what you believe with a grain of salt maybe you need to take a look at the lies R-CALF has been telling and then do some research and find out the truth as many of us have. When you have done that, come back and defend their lieing to those that have been listening and reading it via broadcast media and print media and paying for it with the equity of our cattle herds for the past two years. I have tried to looked at it from your prespective and I still find lieing to support a false claim, all to protect you from competition is wrong and as I see it the US courts must agree as they openned the border in light of all R-CALFs attempts to the keep it closed.
 
Luke,

R-CALF gets slammed dunked in court for very good reason.

Their dumping case against Canada - LOST

Their support for the Pickett vs. IBP case - LOST

Many R-CALF members supported the checkoff constitutionality lawsuit - LOST

9TH circuit court - LOST

CAFTA in congress - LOST


As long as R-CALF stands on rhetoric instead of facts, they will continue to lose.



~SH~
 
I apologize, but I was summarizing Leo McDonald's argument. My impression of his argument is that he wants the border to remain closed because as it is now, if there is a BSE case, the US consumer is under the impression that it was a US product. As a producer, I feel that a home grown problem is a home grown problem. Anything that we have control over ourselves, we should be willing to take responsibility for (any case of BSE), but when we don't have control over the processes, in another country, then we should try and keep them out.
TAM, unfortunately for you, Canada is the first country we have had to deal with that had a case of BSE. Unfortunately for you, most of your beef is sold in the US, but don't worry, less then 5% of the consumed beef within the US would be labled foreign. This creates a precidence on how to act in the future, a prescidence that will be looked upon when the disease pops up in Central and Southern America. I feel our best bet is to first try and protect our market and then figure out the problem. Don't take my beliefs personally, we all pour our lives into making the best product possible. It isn't a knock on your product, it is a measure to protect to American consumer's perception of beef in general.



As Americans, we have a lot to learn from other countries. The worst mistake that anyone can make is believing they are right in any situation. A lot of your argument is taken from a dissatisfaction of where R-CALF has gone, I am not speaking for them, just myself. I feel that it is important to implement COOL so that the American producer's checkoff dollar can more efficiently market US raised beef. Like SH said, that opens up the possibility that your product could be percieved better then ours. So be it, differentiation creates opportunities for others through niche markets and specialized targets. Low-cost advantages and country specific comparative advantages puts the American producer at a disadvantage. Why shouldn't the checkoff be used to market the American product individually?

Micheal Porter, a harvard professor on Strategic Decision Making, said it best, that industries prosper the best when the government and national organizations make it possible for them to compete globally. This argument says that the government creates the infusturstructure for industries to compete successfully (more efficiently and effectively) in the global market. This doesn't mean that the government gives them money, handouts or such. it means that the infustructure, available resources (mainly tech and educated employees), facilitate a comparative advantage over other countries. I beleive that R-Calf is being more dynamic in that they are protecting the US consumer's perception of the beef industry, with a closed border and pushing COOL until, the US producer can actively differentiate themselves from the competition (all imports). Therefore, giving the US producer a comparative advantage (albeit only within the US market), until "M" COOL is implemented.
TAM, Some of the nicest and encouraging people I have met have been Canadians, as a producer I am well aware of your ability to produce a great product and do it better then us, that awarness should give all american producers the drive to create a better product. Competition is great, as long as a national marketing campaign that we pay for is used strictly for our product.
 
Unfortunately the 9th ciruit doesn't have the best reputation for upholding my beliefs as an American. Didn't they also say that it was unconstitutional to say the pledge of alligence, wasn't the appeal's court (not 9th) that also said it was unconstitutional to have the ten commandments in the courthouse (i forget the state). So with the appeal's court's record of decisions, I don't particularly agree with them all of the time. As a producer my thoughts are this:
IBP is part of an ogilopoly that manipulates the cattle market to their advantage. I see this through their reluctance to pay high prices early in the week for fed cattle, but then buying fed cattle late in the week after the market has dropped.
It is my understanding that Canada has subsities that give them a cost advantage, for our cost sensitive product. Therefore enableling them to sell product under our cost of production.
I supported the constitutionallity of the checkoff lawsuit based on the mushroom case precedence. If the mushroom producers didn't have to pay, why should we? Especially for a generic product.
CAFTA was an issue because countries, like Costa Rica (I just returned from there) have comparative cost advantages over the US producers. They have the ability to import cattle cheaper then we can produce it. It is my understanding that R-CALF was fighting CAFTA because producers in CR and other Centeral American countries didn't have the same processes as we currently do, therefore, our checkoff dollar is effectively marketing their product in our home market, even though they operate differently then us.
R-CALF's supposed rhetoric takes into account all of the issues and how they interrelated to one another.
 
Thank you for the kind word about our ability to raise beef but Can you tell me just how much money is collected by the US checkoff on Canadian cattle Luke and should that money be spent advertizing your beef instead of the meat it was collected on? If a US producer comes to Canada and buys Canadian feeders and import them to the US should his checkoff dollars not advertize his beef also. Most of the cattle that have left Canada since the border openned have been owned by US producers not by Canadians so by not advertizing all beef will you not be cheating those producers out of their checkoff dollars.
 
Go for it Luke. Waste some more of your hard earned money. The utility eater doesn't give a rats patooty where his burger comes from or his cheap stew meat or his quickly picked up steak for the nights barbeeque.

If you want to do something, go try to find a buyer for your beef in a part of the world that has some cash for a quality product (if you can produce it), pump your bottom end into those folks flowing up from south of ya, and save your cooool cash.
 
I only have a little time...individually, I believe that COOL will enable choice. I have not read the law, therefoe am only speaking on the theory of the law and what it would enable. I am not in the retail beef business, you might be, I am a producer who feels that the ability to market my commerical cattle is infringed upon because our checkoff dollar promotes other country's products.
I will respond in kind when I have more time, but the basic suggestion that I am presenting is that: as the US becomes more of a service provider, our cost of labor and natural resources will increase. The checkoff was insituted to promote our national product, our national industry, that needs the support of our national organizations. Without that support and encouragement from top level organizations, our industry will eventually succum to countries who have a cost advantage over us. the basic reason why most of the products within wal-mart are made in china. This idea is a protectionist's dream...so be it. It is my goal to protect my lively hood and the livelyhood of my friends. If it is in our ability to keep our industry alive and well, why not do it? Why should we eventually become history like: steel, electronics, sheep, textiles, ect.

I am just a simple person, with a product, who wants our national organizations to promote our own product.
 
Say, this has been a refreshingly civil debate for once. Both sides laid out their thoughts, and no name calling.

Luke, I could have echoed your thoughts a couple years ago, but the more time I spent on ranchers.net, the more I realized that a lot of my arguments melted away like an ice cream cone in the hot sun. I can tell you are an intelligent thinker though by the way you write. Just keep digging and reading, and a lot of things will cause you to wonder about what you have heard or read.

Cheers!
 
Luke said:
I only have a little time...individually, I believe that COOL will enable choice. I have not read the law, therefoe am only speaking on the theory of the law and what it would enable. I am not in the retail beef business, you might be, I am a producer who feels that the ability to market my commerical cattle is infringed upon because our checkoff dollar promotes other country's products.
I will respond in kind when I have more time, but the basic suggestion that I am presenting is that: as the US becomes more of a service provider, our cost of labor and natural resources will increase. The checkoff was insituted to promote our national product, our national industry, that needs the support of our national organizations. Without that support and encouragement from top level organizations, our industry will eventually succum to countries who have a cost advantage over us. the basic reason why most of the products within wal-mart are made in china. This idea is a protectionist's dream...so be it. It is my goal to protect my lively hood and the livelyhood of my friends. If it is in our ability to keep our industry alive and well, why not do it? Why should we eventually become history like: steel, electronics, sheep, textiles, ect.

I am just a simple person, with a product, who wants our national organizations to promote our own product.
Again how many dollars are collected on imported Canadian cattle from US owners and do those US producer deserve to have their product advertized with their checkoff dollars? And yes you do have a right to protect your industry but does that give R-CALF the right to lie to the beef buying public via press releases, personal appearances and court breifing about the safety of our beef. We would also like to protect our industry but we are fighting the US media being fed lies by R-CALF and it has cost us dearly. How would you like to defend your industry to out and out lies from a beef organization everyday of two plus years? One bright spot to this is that the court of appeal saw R-CALFs injunction for what it was and reversed it. And the other bright spot was the US consumers found the USDA and NCBA more creditble when it came to BSE than they did R-CALF. If the US consumers believed R-CALFs statements about all beef coming from a country with BSE is tainted and unsafe your beef would have been tagged the same and non of us would have been selling beef. R-CALFs idea that the end justifies the means could have destroyed all of us. So thank your lucky stars that the US consumers took R-CALF with a grain of salt and didn't react to their fear mongering.
 
Thank you, Luke, for a well-thought post laced with common sense and presented in a nonconfrotational manner. (Wow, I just used a big word).
All of us, myself included, would do well to follow your example.
 
Luke,

One thing you and so many other "M"COOL proponents always seem to forget is that Canada and Mexico are not our biggest competition. PORK and POULTRY ARE. To advertise generic, commodity "U.S. BEEF means nothing when 95% of the labeled product would be U.S. BEEF". It's far more important to differentiate beef from poultry and pork than it is to differentiate 95% of the labeled beef that is U.S. beef from the 5% of the labeled beef that is imported.

If you are going to differentiate your product, you have to differentiate your product from something, rather than segregating a rare, novelty item to the benefit of the novelty item.

You still have failed to address the fact that if consumers wanted country of origin, they could get source verified branded beef without a costly, unnecessary government mandate. That is absolutely the most valid argument against "M"COOL. The free enterprise system has already taken the concept of "a consumer's right to know" much farther than costly, unenforceable "M"COOL ever will.

How can you call yourself a conservative when you want a government mandate to accomplish what the free enterprise system is already doing a better job of?

Excuse my candor but you can't possibly understand marketing beef as well as someone who actually markets beef.


Luke: "Walmart is selling so many products made in China because they are focused on price. Their target market is a price sensitive market. They don't sell our products because American industry has made an effort to differentiate themselves based on quality, not price."

Imported beef already has the "novelty item" advantage. Now if you want to add the quality factor, there is no higher quality beef than Canadian beef. Our best northern cattle are spiked with Canadian genetics. Pick up any old ABS catalog and look at all the Canadian bulls. In fact, I am convinced that "M"COOL, if it was enforceable, would create a clear advantage to Canadian beef since they already have a traceback system in place and the highest quality beef available.

I'm not promoting Canadian beef either, I'm just stating a fact that the carcass data has already revealed.

The only way I can see that this would not be the case is if R-CALF came out with a big BSE "fear mongering" smear campaign against Canadian beef which would only serve to discourage consumers from eating any beef.


Luke: "Your statement implies that we as an industry can't use the checkoff dollar to encourage a high perception of quality in US beef."

To advertise only "U.S. BEEF" and not "BEEF" with checkoff dollars would mean an end to the checkoff dollars that are collected on imported beef which constitutes 20% of our U.S. beef consumption. Keep in mind, 75% of the imported beef ends up in "food service" where it would be exempt from "M"COOL.

Again, it means nothing unless you are differentiating your product from a higher percentage than 5%.

That is, if the remaining 5% is not also funneled towards the "food service" exemption leaving nothing but "U.S. beef" at the retail level with the expense of segregation and labeling that consumers are not even asking for.


Luke: "NZ has a comparative advantage over the US market because of the strong industry there. You can't even buy US lamb in our local market, it is all NZ lamb. I have met several producers, my grandfather used to raise lamb, until another country had a cost advantage and it didn't pay. Please don't let this same situation happen to the cattle industry."

I have talked to retailers that have sold New Zealand lamb beside American lamb. The color of the label, the appearance of the product, and the price is what drives the consumer purchase, not Country of Origin.

If consumers preferred U.S. product over foreign, New Zealand lamb wouldn't be outselling U.S. lamb would it?

You have just defeated your own argument.

I talked to a friend who recently attended the ASI convention in Nevada. He told me that nobody is sitting around blaming imports like they used to. Most of the blamers are gone from the industry leaving the forward thinkers to run the ship. The ASI has finally come to the realization that they are competing with the other protein sources in a global market. The sheep checkoff was reinstated with an 80% margin. Please don't let this same situation (demise of the sheep industry due to blaming imports rather than promoting lamb) happen to the cattle industry.


Luke: " AR's grass fed beef probably made the cover through a great promoter. It wasn't because consumers demanded that this product be put there. That was one individual's decision to highlight a market."

It doesn't matter if consumers demanded it be put there, it was put there and it sold proving that Country of Origin is not where it's at.


Luke: "I am not a member of R-CALF, as far as I know."

That's definitely something to be proud of.


Luke: "My impression of his argument is that he wants the border to remain closed because as it is now, if there is a BSE case, the US consumer is under the impression that it was a US product."

Food safety is a smokescreen which is why R-CALF has found themselves caught in so many contradictions trying to differentiate Canada's BSE situation from ours.

The motive behind the border closing was to stop Canadian imports. Look no further than R-CALF's dumping case against Canada to see the motive and all the concern with cattle prices revolving around the border.

R-CALF fooled nobody but themselves by using BSE as a catalyst to keep the border closed.


Luke: "Low-cost advantages and country specific comparative advantages puts the American producer at a disadvantage."

You will not outvote the consumer on importing foreign products. Producer are 1 1/2% and consumers are 98.5% of the population.

You have to be realistic.


Luke: "Micheal Porter, a harvard professor on Strategic Decision Making, said it best, that industries prosper the best when the government and national organizations make it possible for them to compete globally. This argument says that the government creates the infusturstructure for industries to compete successfully (more efficiently and effectively) in the global market."

That's exactly why the Bush administration pushed for CAFTA. Currently, we are paying tarriffs as high as 40% to these countries while they import to us virtually duty free and have not even met their trade quotas.

R-CALF didn't tell you that though did they?

You want to know where R-CALF's real position on trade is?

Bill Bullard was asked in Colorado what it would be like without any trade. His response was, "we would be in a very favorable position because we don't produce enough beef to meet our domestic market now".

Bill Bullard also stated at a Texas Farm Bureau meeting, "You don't need an export market to distribute your production because you don't produce enough beef to satisfy your own domestic market now".

First off, both statements are incredibly ignorant considering that price is the determining factor of how much beef we will consume. Of course we can consume all we produce, the question is, AT WHAT PRICE.

More importantly, that statement says that we don't need trade in the beef industry.

Prior to the closing of the Canadian border, we had a $1.3 "BILLION" dollar seven year average net surplus in the combined trade of live cattle, beef variety meats, beef, and hides. This data is available from the Dept. of Commerce - Bureau of Census. If you take that and divide it by the total number of cattle slaughtered during those 7 years, our trade surplus amounts to $28 more per head for those years. Just prior to the border closing that amount was closer to $40 per head.

According to Bullard, we don't need an additional $40 per head and their actions against Canada which reflected on Japan and South Korea pretty much followed that line of thinking.

So if Canada absorbs our export market, what did R-CALF gain? NOTHING! That my friend is the big picture.


Luke: "IBP is part of an ogilopoly that manipulates the cattle market to their advantage."

There is no such thing as IBP anymore. IBP sold to Tyson.

This was what the plaintiffs in Pickett vs. ibp claimed. Guess how that verdict turned out? NOT GUILTY!

The judge overturned the juries decision because they didn't understand the facts laid in front of them. One of the judge's instructions to the jurors was that they had to agree that IBP lacked a legitimate reason for using captive supplies. The plaintiffs themselves testified to the contrary and even admitted entering into forward contracts.

You know what ibp's profits were for this period of "SUPPOSED" market manipulation was? $26 per head.

I'd say they did a pretty poor job of manipulating the markets to only have $26 per head to show for it IN THEIR BEST YEARS.

I would love to hear what proof you have to the contrary.


Luke: "CAFTA was an issue because countries, like Costa Rica (I just returned from there) have comparative cost advantages over the US producers. They have the ability to import cattle cheaper then we can produce it. It is my understanding that R-CALF was fighting CAFTA because producers in CR and other Centeral American countries didn't have the same processes as we currently do, therefore, our checkoff dollar is effectively marketing their product in our home market, even though they operate differently then us.'

These countries are already importing to the U.S. and not meeting their quotas now. A very important point in any discussion on CAFTA.

Once again, what CAFTA will do is eliminate the high tarriffs we are paying to export our beef into these countries while they ALREADY import to the U.S. virtually duty free.


I agree with Sandman that all of us would do well to follow your example on civility in debate. Hope I have done my part on this thread.



~SH~
 
Good job SH, and if I may put in my 2 bits, I agree with almost everything you said in this post.

I will always have a hard time agreeing that Rcalf is soley responsible for keeping the border closed to Canadian cattle, but the whole MCOOL arguement was well spoken and realistic. MCOOL would do nothing for the American cattle producer other than prove once again that the protectionist forces within Rcalf are out to lunch. In fact is is so obvious that once again, I will say "blow your money if you like", or use it to do something concrete for the cattleman and cattlewomen of America.
 
Those of us who are behind MCOOL view it not so much as reactive to our competitor's presence in our back yard but as proactive to counter the wave of beef current forces are working to bringing to our shores.

It can only help us to imprint in US consumer's minds (via a checkoff that promotes US beef only) that they want US product and then have the means available (MCOOL) where they can actually pick our product from our competitor's.

Another reason MCOOL and a US checkoff makes sense is to capitalize on the huge investment the US cattle industry has made in our product. We've put a lot of time and money into our herd and then to not promote it is just plain foolish.
 
Sandhusker said:
Those of us who are behind MCOOL view it not so much as reactive to our competitor's presence in our back yard but as proactive to counter the wave of beef current forces are working to bringing to our shores.

It can only help us to imprint in US consumer's minds (via a checkoff that promotes US beef only) that they want US product and then have the means available (MCOOL) where they can actually pick our product from our competitor's.

Another reason MCOOL and a US checkoff makes sense is to capitalize on the huge investment the US cattle industry has made in our product. We've put a lot of time and money into our herd and then to not promote it is just plain foolish.

Sandhusker, what you and others fail to understand, or deliberately misconstrue, is that US beef is being promoted by our beef checkoff.

The fact that ALL beef available in the USA is promoted does not mean that US produced beef is any less promoted.

You seem to not understand that the competition for US produced beef is other proteins, not the small amount of imported beef, much of which is used to actually add value to our fatty trim meats sold as hamburger.

Don't forget that the beef checkoff is far more than "promotion". Consider the value of the research that is finding facts on nutrient content of beef, especially the fatty acid components that will most likely allow beef to be placed favorably among foods with naturally ocurring fats valuable in the human diet. And so much more. You might learn something that will encourage and surprise you if you would check it out at www.cbb.org, or www.beef.org.

MRJ
 
MRJ, Does McDonalds advertise just burgers? Does Ford advertise just cars? Does Coors advertise just beer? Why don't they? These companies don't lump themselves with their competitors and then say, "Yes, but our product is being promoted, too." Instead they spend millions to seperate themselves from their competitors.

Maybe you should just tell me what benefit I get from my competitor's product being promoted?
 
Sandman: "MRJ, Does McDonalds advertise just burgers? Does Ford advertise just cars? Does Coors advertise just beer? Why don't they? These companies don't lump themselves with their competitors and then say, "Yes, but our product is being promoted, too." Instead they spend millions to seperate themselves from their competitors."

Another apples to watermelons comparison on so many fronts.

First, THESE COMPANYS HAVE COMPETITORS. 5% MARKET SHARE IS NOT COMPETITION. The benefits of advertising are much greater when you actually have competition.

If all imported beef is funneled towards "Food service", you are differentiating a generic commodity beef product ("U.S. BEEF") from nothing.

Second, these companies are not advertising, US buns, US pickles, US steel, or US beef, they are advertising their brand name. "U.S. BEEF" is not a brand name, it's an origin. That doesn't tell the consumer anything about the value of the product.

Third, the option to truly differentiate your product from the competition that includes value is available for us through branded beef products but it means nothing advertising a generic product especially a generic product that has 95% market share.

This is just like bottled water. You promote the brand name, not the origin of the water. In fact, I have actually seen some bottled water companies advertising "SPRING WATER" from foreign countries. So much for U.S. consumers prefering U.S. products.

Perhaps you need to tell the companies that sell bottled water that they are missing the boat by not advertising U.S. bottled water.


Sandman: "Maybe you should just tell me what benefit I get from my competitor's product being promoted?'

The key is to get consumers to eat beef because most consumers don't care about Country of Origin, they care about value. There is no benefit to segregating 5% generic commodity foreign beef from U.S. generic commodity U.S. beef other than to create incentive for buying that 5% by differentiating it as a rare novelty item.

Advertising "U.S. BEEF" (generic, commodity) is the classic "Symbolism over substance" when 95% of the labeled beef would be U.S. beef and the expenses of segregation would outweigh the benefits of generic labeling.

I'll challenge anyone to address one simple question, why do you believe it is a better option for the government to segregate 95% of the domestic generic commodity beef products from 5% of the imported generic commodity beef products than the free enterprise offering SOURE VERIFIED branded beef products that add value through aging, preperation, flavor, and tenderness?

Why the heck do you believe "M"COOL is a better option than the free enterprise system selling source verified branded beef products that add value?


~SH~
 
www.scoringag.com does the option to truly differentiate your product from the competition that includes value is available for us through branded beef products but it means nothing advertising a generic product especially a generic product that has 95% market share. SSI has the whole worldwide market of web-based electronic records from the specific cattle location record SH to the load of tomato's that was dumped in a pasture for cattle feed. This is going to be the norm, You promote the brand name, plus the origin of the water.
 
Please answer the question directly above your post Porker.

Would SSI rather work with the government or private enterprise advertising branded beef products?


~SH~
 

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